Ask Supes

[REHawksFan]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think 99% of the board falls outside of these groups of outliers on both of these, however, and rejects both of these extremes.

Agree. The majority is some reasonable combination of the two extremes. But then, there's still plenty for us to agrue / banter about as well with regard to the timing of getting out of the lottery spin cycle. How long do we stay in? When is the appropriate time to cash in and go for more experience? Etc...  The great thing about the internet.......there's no shortage of *hopefully friendly* debates. 

[KB21]

22 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Agree. The majority is some reasonable combination of the two extremes. But then, there's still plenty for us to agrue / banter about as well with regard to the timing of getting out of the lottery spin cycle. How long do we stay in? When is the appropriate time to cash in and go for more experience? Etc...  The great thing about the internet.......there's no shortage of *hopefully friendly* debates. 

When you decide to voluntarily get on the lottery spin cycle, it’s hard to get out of that cycle.

[REHawksFan]

6 minutes ago, KB21 said:

When you decide to voluntarily get on the lottery spin cycle, it’s hard to get out of that cycle.

It's not easy but it can be done.  Just have to evaluate players correctly and be willing to change the focus from "asset accumulation" and "player development" to "player production".  So long as the mindset within the organization shifts away from stockpiling "assets" to acquiring actual NBA players that can contribute, I'll live with the inevitable results.  Good or bad. 

 

Edited January 20, 2020 by REHawksFan

[KB21]

7 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

It's not easy but it can be done.  Just have to evaluate players correctly and be willing to change the focus from "asset accumulation" and "player development" to "player production".  So long as the mindset within the organization shifts away from stockpiling "assets" to acquiring actual NBA players that can contribute, I'll live with the inevitable results.  Good or bad. 

 

The problem with this cycle is that those who decide to jump on this cycle tend to not ever go from the asset accumulation and player development mindset to the player production mindset.  That’s the reason those who start this cycle end up getting fired.  

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

The problem with this cycle is that those who decide to jump on this cycle tend to not ever go from the asset accumulation and player development mindset to the player production mindset.  That’s the reason those who start this cycle end up getting fired.  

Do you think we weren't headed for the lottery in 2017-18 if Budcox had brought the gang back?

[KB21]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Do you think we weren't headed for the lottery in 2017-18 if Budcox had brought the gang back?

I think we had a much better chance of being competitive had we not decided to tank.  Yes.  Even if they had dipped into the lottery, it would have been the lower lottery, and Bud would not have made moves that kept his team in the lottery.

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I think we had a much better chance of being competitive had we not decided to tank.  Yes.  Even if they had dipped into the lottery, it would have been the lower lottery, and Bud would not have made moves that kept his team in the lottery.

I agree with the first part - they would have been headed into the lower lottery, not near the top.

I disagree with the second part.  Bud made the moves that took them from a solid playoff team to one that was lucky to make the playoffs and was faced with either overpaying THJr and Sap or watching them walk for nothing.  The two of them went from earning a combined ~$22M their last season under Budcox to earning ~$48M the following year.  Dennis Schröder also went from ~$2.7M to $15.5M in 2017-18.  So a ~$39M increase in payroll for the same core players that were lucky to win 43 games.

[KB21]

Just now, AHF said:

I agree with the first part - they would have been headed into the lower lottery.

I disagree with the second part.  Bud made the moves that took them from a solid playoff team to one that was lucky to make the playoffs and faced with either overpaying THJr and Sap or watching them walk for nothing.

I maintain that Bud would have kept Al instead of signing Dwight, and Dwight was signed due to Ressler meddling in the basketball operations.  If we keep Al, we likely don’t even dip into the lottery.  

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I maintain that Bud would have kept Al instead of signing Dwight, and Dwight was signed due to Ressler meddling in the basketball operations.  If we keep Al, we likely don’t even dip into the lottery.  

Bud was there and didn't sign Al.  Not sure how you get that.  Budcox was the GM.  They let Al walk to Boston and signed Dwight.  In actuality.  No "would have" required.  You can maintain that was because of Ressler meddling but that means that Budcox couldn't stop Ressler meddling as Dwight in fact was signed and Al in fact walked.  While Bud was there with the highest authority in the basketball organization.

[Watchman]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Danny Ferry was trash

Bud can only coach teams with vets. That's not useful for a rebuilding team

KB21, we NEVER had a championship contender in Atlanta. Ferry never built one either. We were pretenders. If Ferry was worth a shit, he would have moved up and got Giannis when Minny called and gave him the tip that MIL could take him. 

We tailed off a bit before the end of the season.  However, the season was over when we lost 2/5 of our key players in the playoffs (Korver and Carroll.)

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

I maintain that Bud would have kept Al instead of signing Dwight, and Dwight was signed due to Ressler meddling in the basketball operations.  If we keep Al, we likely don’t even dip into the lottery.  

It wasn't about maintaining. Al Horford wanted the full max, he wasn't staying for nothing less. Ressler didn't see Al as a full max player. I did. So did Bud but Tony didn't. 

I do agree with that part. Even if we signed Al and Dwight, we could have traded Millsap during the draft to get a future pick. 

That said, Tony made an economic decision and it's already paid off. Attendance is higher than anytime since Nique was in Atlanta. There is a lot more local interest than anytime since Nique. We have a leading vote getter for the first time since Nique.

We drafted Luka Doncic and flipped him for two potential superstars in Trae Young and Cam Reddish. Things are looking good af my friend

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, AHF said:

Bud was there and didn't sign Al.  Not sure how you get that.  Budcox was the GM.  They let Al walk to Boston and signed Dwight.  In actuality.  No "would have" required.  You can maintain that was because of Ressler meddling but that means that Budcox couldn't stop Ressler meddling as Dwight in fact was signed and Al in fact walked.  While Bud was there with the highest authority in the basketball organization.

They didn't let Al walk. He chose otherwise. The plan was to sign Dwight and resign Al. Likely trade Sap to another team and start Dwight and Al with Dennis, Korver, and Bazemore.

[macdaddy]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

That said, Tony made an economic decision and it's already paid off. Attendance is higher than anytime since Nique was in Atlanta. There is a lot more local interest than anytime since Nique. We have a leading vote getter for the first time since Nique.

We drafted Luka Doncic and flipped him for two potential superstars in Trae Young and Cam Reddish. Things are looking good af my friend

Just facts

[kg01]

Instead of 'ask supes, if he starts talking nostalgic Alice stuff, it's gonna be 'as supes.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Watchman said:

We tailed off a bit before the end of the season.  However, the season was over when we lost 2/5 of our key players in the playoffs (Korver and Carroll.)

Cleveland was missing Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Iman Shumpert and Anderson Varejao during that series so we weren't the only team missing major pieces.  

[KB21]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

Bud was there and didn't sign Al.  Not sure how you get that.  Budcox was the GM.  They let Al walk to Boston and signed Dwight.  In actuality.  No "would have" required.  You can maintain that was because of Ressler meddling but that means that Budcox couldn't stop Ressler meddling as Dwight in fact was signed and Al in fact walked.  While Bud was there with the highest authority in the basketball organization.

It’s a pretty well known fact that Ressler wanted the Dwight Howard signing for marketing purposes and overruled his front office on the decision.  It was the start of the fracture between Bud and Wilcox, because Wilcox sided with Tony in a survival mode.  

[NBASupes]

Our core in 2014-15 was

Jeff, Kyle, Al, and Paul

Our core in 2019-2020 is

Trae, Cam, John, Kevin, and De'Andre 

 

We are in a MUCH MUCH MUCH better place right now than in 2014-15 long term. 

We just need to add the pieces around these kids. We need to do the opposite with those guys. We needed to add youth with premium talent. 

I have more faith we can add premium role players than premium young talent which we needed to do in 2015. 

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

They didn't let Al walk. He chose otherwise. The plan was to sign Dwight and resign Al. Likely trade Sap to another team and start Dwight and Al with Dennis, Korver, and Bazemore.

Word it however you want - there is no case to be made that Bud "would have" brought Al back because Bud was there and Al walked.  They weren't able to stop him from walking if you like that phrasing better.  My point is that with Budcox at the helm and running the team toward maximum wins, they sailed that ship into the 2016-17 season without Horford.

[KB21]

8 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It wasn't about maintaining. Al Horford wanted the full max, he wasn't staying for nothing less. Ressler didn't see Al as a full max player. I did. So did Bud but Tony didn't. 

I do agree with that part. Even if we signed Al and Dwight, we could have traded Millsap during the draft to get a future pick. 

That said, Tony made an economic decision and it's already paid off. Attendance is higher than anytime since Nique was in Atlanta. There is a lot more local interest than anytime since Nique. We have a leading vote getter for the first time since Nique.

We drafted Luka Doncic and flipped him for two potential superstars in Trae Young and Cam Reddish. Things are looking good af my friend

So where is the winning?  What I see is a group of young players who don’t know how to win coached by a coach who doesn’t know how to win.  I’m also starting to see some frustration building already with their “star” player due to the losing.  Another top 3 pick isn’t going to change this.

[NBASupes]

Just now, KB21 said:

It’s a pretty well known fact that Ressler wanted the Dwight Howard signing for marketing purposes and overruled his front office on the decision.  It was the start of the fracture between Bud and Wilcox, because Wilcox sided with Tony in a survival mode.  

Not really, he was a dumbass like most of the posters here that year we needed a post presence and rebounding to win as Al and Sap wasn't big on rebounding but not realizing overall defense is far more important and Bud was living in the modern NBA while Tony was living in the old. Tony really assumed that it was rebounding that was holding us back. A lot of dumbasses thought that at the time. 

It wasn't for marketing reasons. That presumption was and is wrong. He literally thought Dwight would be a difference maker.