Who do you want at #6?

[NBASupes]

John as a prospect:

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/john-collins/

http://www.tankathon.com/players/john-collins

https://www.nba.com/draft/2017/prospects/john_collins#/

Detail

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/John-Collins-76415/

Obi Toppin 

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/obi-toppin/

https://ca.nba.com/news/nba-draft-2020-obi-toppin-scouting-report-strengths-weaknesses-and-player-comparison/17xgbpjulp22613erolxqvmrsd

http://www.tankathon.com/players/obi-toppin

Detail

https://www.thestepien.com/2020/02/19/obi-toppin-scouting-report/

[terrell]

40 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I would like to find those people with those expectations for Hunter because it wasn't me. As high as I was on Hunter as a prospect for US. I was the main person saying it would take at least a year for him to adjust to the SF position @AHF, and @JayBirdHawk can you confirm?

You really shouldn't use age as a discrimination tool on Toppin. His growth curve is still fairly young due to his late growth spurt and body development. Development wise, he's on par with a 18 to 19 year old. He's not a Hunter or Vassell where he is his age. 

Yeah I can confirm that..I remember..And he came from the slowest offense in college basketball. I knew it would take him some time. Regardless of age..

Edited August 22, 2020 by terrell

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

More talented in your opinion, C. Reddish or A.Edwards?

Both are generational talents with similar realized potential and the same tier 3.5 as prospects. I just felt Cam went to the best case scenario. Excellent player development program with an excellent lead playmaker in Trae Young. 

For Edwards, he needs to go to an excellent player development group, he needs someone that's going to make him earn it and he needs to be worked with patiencely. 

Six generational talents from 10-19:

Embiid

Porter Jr.

Reddish

Zion

John Wall 

AD

for 00-09

Michael Beasley

D Rose

Bron

Oden

Durant

90-99

Shaq

Grant Hill

Iverson

McGrady

KG

2020 -29

Edwards 

Likely Cade Cunningham 

 

Best prospects:

Duncan

Luka

LeBron 

Shaq

Chris Paul

Durant

Oden

AD

Zion

Ja Morant

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I would like to find those people with those expectations for Hunter because it wasn't me. As high as I was on Hunter as a prospect for US. I was the main person saying it would take at least a year for him to adjust to the SF position @AHF, and @JayBirdHawk can you confirm?

You really shouldn't use age as a discrimination tool on Toppin. His growth curve is still fairly young due to his late growth spurt and body development. Development wise, he's on par with a 18 to 19 year old. He's not a Hunter or Vassell where he is his age. 

You did say this. Based on the system in VA and playing PF.

[terrell]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

John as a prospect:

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/john-collins/

http://www.tankathon.com/players/john-collins

https://www.nba.com/draft/2017/prospects/john_collins#/

Detail

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/John-Collins-76415/

Obi Toppin 

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/obi-toppin/

https://ca.nba.com/news/nba-draft-2020-obi-toppin-scouting-report-strengths-weaknesses-and-player-comparison/17xgbpjulp22613erolxqvmrsd

http://www.tankathon.com/players/obi-toppin

Detail

https://www.thestepien.com/2020/02/19/obi-toppin-scouting-report/

What do you think about Paul Reed? Hes similar to Toppin, but he can play defense....We could trade up late 1st or early 2nd for him..

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by terrell

[warcore]

2 hours ago, marco102 said:

Is this in reference to Toppin's defense? 

Toppin has tight hips which means unless he gets more flexible I don't see him getting much better defending in space.  That's the main reason I'm not as high on Toppin as you. 

On the offensive side, he can be good, but I don't see him having that big of an impact his first year. Maybe the second half, but not immediately. 

I just don't see a generational offensive player with him.  I see a solid one, but not generational. 

Good point on the hips. I also think people sometimes forget that he has a physical advantage over his competition this past year as he was a late bloomer and a few years older than most others. That wouldn't mean much in the pros, but in college, 3 years gives you a huge advantage physically. 

Not saying he's not talented. He's great on offense and fun to watch. I just don't think he will be all star level in the pros. 

[NBASupes]

7 minutes ago, terrell said:

What do you think about Paul Reed? Hes similar to Toppin, but he can play defense....We could trade up late 1st or early 2nd for him..

 

He's nothing like Toppin but his defense is really good. He's one of those two way contract guys that can help you in the 2nd half of the season like Lu Dort

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, warcore said:

 I also think people sometimes forget that he has a physical advantage over his competition this past year as he was a late bloomer and a few years older than most others. That wouldn't mean much in the pros, but in college, 3 years gives you a huge advantage physically.

This statement is wrong. He's a late bloomer physically so he's not at his age yet for that. This statement is only true for guys who have been that size since HS and they are upperclassmen like J.J. Redick or Shelden Williams 

This is the mistake I keep seeing made in regards to Toppin

Edited August 23, 2020 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

We have to compare players accurately please: 

Let's compare Obi and JC from High School Junior year and on: 

John Collins Class of 2015

High School Junior -2014 - 6'9 200 - 18-4 Record

High School Senior - 2015 - 6'9 230 top 200 recruit. - John parents had him start school early due to being in Europe. John was 17 when he graduated HS. 26-2 Record - Averaged 20.3 points and 10.2 rebounds during his senior season in 2014-15

College Freshman - 2016 - 6'9 235 - Averaged 7.3 points and 3.9 rebounds in 14.4 minutes per game

College Soph - 2017 - 6'9 235

· Averaged 19.2 points and 9.8 rebounds per game
· Led the ACC in field goal percentage at 62.2 percent
· Led the nation in Player Efficiency Rating in 2016-17

· 2nd Team Basketball Times All-American
· First-Team All-ACC and ACC Most Improved Player

· 17 double-doubles, most by a Deac in a season since Al-Farouq Aminu had 19 in 2009-10
· Led ACC in scoring in conference games at 20.3 PPG
· Had a streak 12 straight 20-point games, longest streak by a Deac since 1970-71 (Charlie Davis)
· The first Demon Deacon with 600 points and 300 rebounds in a season since Tim Duncan in 1996-97
· Led the ACC with 10 20-and-10 games, including four in a row, marking the longest such streak by an ACC player since Duke's Shane Battier had five straight 20-and-10 games in 2000-01

NBA Rookie - 2018 - 6'9 235 

10.5PPG, 7.3REBS, 1.3APG, 24.1MPG

NBA 2nd year - 2019 6'9 235

19.5PPG, 9.8REBS, 2.0APG, 30MPG

NBA 3rd year - 2020 6'9 235

21.6PPG, 10.1REBS, 1.5APG, 33.2MPG

 

Obi Toppin Class of 2016

High School Junior -2015 - 6'2 140 - JV

High School Senior - 2016 - 6'5 170 - He averaged 20.6 points, 8.1 rebounds, 3 assists and 3 steals as a senior during his only year playing varsity at Ossining and led the team to its first conference title in 10 years. 

Prep School - 2017 - Started the season 6'9 175 and ended it 193 pounds. He averaged 17 points, eight rebounds and four assists and also grew four inches to 6 feet 9 inches (2.06 m).[2] He committed to play college basketball at the University of Dayton. From the interviews I've heard, he only had like three serious offers. Many pulled the plug like UGA due to his lack of size for D1 Basketball. 

 

College Freshman - 2018 - 6'9 193 - Redshirt

College Freshman - 2019 - 6'9 210

• First freshman to be named First Team All-Atlantic 10 in 20 years
• Named to the A-10 All-Rookie Team
• Led Dayton in scoring (14.4 ppg) and was fourth in the nation in FG% (.666, 201-302)

College Soph - 2020 6'9 220 NBA Camp weight (July 2019), Mt Zion coach said he's 230 right now. 

• Named National Player of the Year by Atlanta Tip-Off  Club (Naismith Trophy), NABC, Associated Press, U.S. Basketball Writers Association(Oscar Robertson Award), The Athletic, USA Today, CBSsports.com, NBC Sports, Fox Sports and Rivals
• Dayton's first consensus All-American, after being named First Team Al--American by The Sporting News, Associated Press, USBWA and NABC
• Sports Illustrated announced its Top 50 College Basketball Players for the 2019-20 season last week, and Toppin’s uniform number matched his ranking – “1” 
• Finished the year averaging 20.0 points and 7.5 rebounds a game, and shooting .633 (245-387) from the field, .390 (32-82) from 3-pt. range and .702 (99-141) from the line.
• According to Synergy Basketball, Toppin led the nation with 1.20 points per possession while he was on the floor
• He was the only player in the country who averaged 20.0 points, 7.0 rebounds and shot over 60% from the field
• Had the best field goal percentage in the last five years of any Division I player who averaged 20 points a game
• One of the most efficient players in the nation, Toppin averaged 20.0 points a game, while taking just 12.5 field goal attempts per game
• Despite not strictly playing in the post, his 167 “close-in” 2-pt. FG’s were 30 more than anyone else in the nation

You might can say they are both 22 years old but they aren't on the same track. One has been his NBA height and size since 17. In fact, in a recent interview, JC said he's 225 right now. When the other was 17, he was 6'2 130 pounds. Let's acknowledge this please. 

[kg01]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

This statement is wrong. He's a late bloomer physically so he's not at his age yet for that. This statement is only true for guys who have been that size since HS and they are upperclassmen like J.J. Redick or Shelden Williams 

This is the mistake I keep seeing made in regards to Toppin

Is he older for his class?  Yes.

Did he enjoy a physical strength advantage over most of his comp this season? Yes.

Does that mean his production was somehow 'fake?  No but it should be considered in his evaluation. 

I think that's fair.

[NBASupes]

28 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Is he older for his class?  Yes.

Did he enjoy a physical strength advantage over most of his comp this season? Yes.

Does that mean his production was somehow 'fake?  No but it should be considered in his evaluation. 

I think that's fair.

It about developmental track. That's all. That's why guys like Lillard, Rodman, Pippen, McCullum, Steph Curry, Westbrook, etc have been older players who improved a lot more even after 3 to 4 years of college. If you are physically developed as a HS Freshman like Kyree Walker, you just have a lot less room to move up. Zo Trier is a prime example of someone who was physically developed by 8th grade, best in the nation but he didn't grow much after that. He peaked early. Toppin hasn't peaked. That's why you see him get much better every single year. 

I don't think you understand what I am saying. That's why we are having issues right now. His age isn't that big of a deal considering his development chart. If this was Shelden Williams, I'll be screaming to the top of my lungs to not do it. He doesn't have much potential. If I am going to draft an older player, I need to see his developmental charts or his production. If he has both, you might got a lot more potential on your hands. A lot of people made this mistake with Steph Curry.  

FYI: For those who want to know how good was Obi's HS comp in NY, his region was okay. No D1 players but good players, just undersized. The classification was pretty good. They had Shenendehowa who was 27-1 and had current Hawk Kevin Huerter and the champions was Jefferson in Brooklyn lead by Shamorie Ponds who was an excellent HS player and college player. Obi's HS is known for girls Basketball. They been champions like every year and have 3 Mrs. New York. It's a tough state for girls, a lot of WNBA players like Stewie, Sue Bird, Tina Charles, and more.

Edited August 23, 2020 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/stephen-curry-scouting-report-davidson-2009-nba-draft-warriors/odgsfr1n0zs517flvxfb3lg5m

[Spud2nique]

36 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nba/news/stephen-curry-scouting-report-davidson-2009-nba-draft-warriors/odgsfr1n0zs517flvxfb3lg5m

Sorry to tell u but a lot of people including myself knew Curry was gonna be good. Toppin isn’t Curry level.

[NBASupes]

58 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Sorry to tell u but a lot of people including myself knew Curry was gonna be good. Toppin isn’t Curry level.

You compared Gordon and Derrick Williams to Toppin, so you lost a lot of points with me on any opinion relating to this topic. Toppin is that motherf**ker. I am telling you this. I don't say this shit much but when an older cat got it. They got it. Steph had it. Lillard had it. Obi has it. It's that it factor. I can't put my finger on it but it's more than just their ability. It even reads in their metrics. 

This shit to me, is not a joke: • According to Synergy Basketball, Toppin led the nation with 1.20 points per possession while he was on the floor

PPP is everything to me. WAR/RAPTOR/Impact metrics come 2nd. This guy has it. What Tom Brady got it. Dame Lillard got it. Steph Curry got it. How they can lead people who aren't expected to be much to higher grounds, he got it. 

I am going to say it. If Cleveland, Chicago, or Atlanta pass on him. Heads need to roll unless you got someone better and I don't believe they will. You can draft Ball, Edwards, Wiseman and one could fail and you still got an excuse. There is no excuse after those three. Deni is going to be a role player at best. Okoro will take time and if you get him, you better be right and good at development. With Toppin, you just gotta trust the process. That's it. Cleveland ain't did shit right in years. Same for Chicago. Atlanta been doing good in the draft but always doing some shit they don't need to do. This ain't something any of them should pass on. Ain't no one left Toppin. No one. 

Edited August 23, 2020 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

This is just as big to me as Cam but unlike Cam, he needed to land with us to really have a chance. Obi can land anywhere. 

I keep showing you this for a reason. Look at their offense. I rarely catch legit prospects in good offenses at all. Usually talented ones but almost never, good ones. This guy is extremely scheme versatile on offense. That's extremely hard to find from a big man. You gotta go to the 2007 to find the last two scheme versatile offensive bigs in Horford and Noah at the college level. Those two were versatile on both ends. 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by NBASupes

[terrell]

43 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

You compared Gordon and Derrick Williams to Toppin, so you lost a lot of points with me on any opinion relating to this topic. Toppin is that motherf**ker. I am telling you this. I don't say this shit much but when an older cat got it. They got it. Steph had it. Lillard had it. Obi has it. It's that it factor. I can't put my finger on it but it's more than just their ability. It even reads in their metrics. 

This shit to me, is not a joke: • According to Synergy Basketball, Toppin led the nation with 1.20 points per possession while he was on the floor

PPP is everything to me. WAR/RAPTOR/Impact metrics come 2nd. This guy has it. What Tom Brady got it. Dame Lillard got it. Steph Curry got it. How they can lead people who aren't expected to be much to higher grounds, he got it. 

I am going to say it. If Cleveland, Chicago, or Atlanta pass on him. Heads need to roll unless you got someone better and I don't believe they will. 

Poor mans Tobias Harris....Just kidding...lol. How about an aggressive Al Horford?  Good comparison?

Edited August 23, 2020 by terrell

[NBASupes]

10 minutes ago, terrell said:

Poor mans Tobias Harris....Just kidding...lol. How about an aggressive Al Horford?  Good comparison?

He doesn't have close to Al's defensive talent as a prospect but offensively, he's what Billy Donovan would have loved to have. Al just doesn't have this level of athleticism that Toppin has. I actually like the comparison. Al is one of the best I've seen at getting value out of each possession for a big and is extremely scheme versatile and like Toppin, both were coached by Anthony Grant. 

Al is like my favorite natural PF to ever play outside of Duncan. He's now a modern 5.  

Edited August 23, 2020 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

I've said this before, I would love if we could move up in the 2nd round and get Payton Pritchard. 

http://www.tankathon.com/players/payton-pritchard

https://theathletic.com/2005300/?source=player

Vecenie: I think there is a real chance he hears his name called at the end of the first round, or he could last until around here. The range for many of the guards in this class is wide. Regardless of where he’s picked, Pritchard, I think, carves out a really nice role as a backup point guard in the NBA. He was one of my three finalists this year on my Naismith award vote, and got my first-team All-America vote, too. Few players were as good or as important to their teams this year as Pritchard was. He averaged 20.5 points and 5.5 assists per game while shooting an absurd 46.5 percent from the field and 41.5 percent from 3. He’s a terrific pull-up shooter and a good distributor. 

https://theathletic.com/1620641/?source=player

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/payton-pritchard/

https://www.nba.com/draft/2020/prospects/payton-pritchard#/

 

 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I don't say this shit much

you say that literally every year, ok maybe not about an older guy but I’m telling you, he isn’t the Tom Brady level. That’s ludicrous on way too many levels bro. I think his CEILING is Amare and that’s actually saying a lot. I will agree that Amare didn’t have a 3 but that was then when it wasn’t needed. 
 

I’m not gonna bash your opinion I’m just not gonna come out and say he’s THAT good. Also, if he was on a Brady or Curry type level, why isn’t he even discussed as a top 3 pick, not even 1, 3!!!!!!! If he’s Tom Brady or Curry at pick 5-7 or wherever Toppin goes then Anthony Edwards is Michael Jordan or Wilt Chamberlain cuz he’s gonna go ahead of Toppin. Either that or all 30 scouts will not pick Toppin 1st but Supes will cuz he’s Tom Brady.  

[Spud2nique]

11 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I've said this before, I would love if we could move up in the 2nd round and get Payton Pritchard. 

http://www.tankathon.com/players/payton-pritchard

https://theathletic.com/2005300/?source=player

Vecenie: I think there is a real chance he hears his name called at the end of the first round, or he could last until around here. The range for many of the guards in this class is wide. Regardless of where he’s picked, Pritchard, I think, carves out a really nice role as a backup point guard in the NBA. He was one of my three finalists this year on my Naismith award vote, and got my first-team All-America vote, too. Few players were as good or as important to their teams this year as Pritchard was. He averaged 20.5 points and 5.5 assists per game while shooting an absurd 46.5 percent from the field and 41.5 percent from 3. He’s a terrific pull-up shooter and a good distributor. 

https://theathletic.com/1620641/?source=player

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/payton-pritchard/

https://www.nba.com/draft/2020/prospects/payton-pritchard#/

 

 

I’d literally take like 5 2nd round draft prospects ahead of this cat.