Simple Plan for the Hawks.

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

FVV is effective because he plays next to a bulldog PG on defense in Lowry.  Trae is not that.

 

 

Also, I think the Lakers beating Houston showed why 2 guard systems can't succeed.  And Houston had the best 2 guard system possible.  When the time comes, you need a distributor and you need a shooting threat. 

 

[kg01]

11 minutes ago, Diesel said:

We can disagree.. but you're better off with some facts.

CBS calls Teague #4.  I say #3 because I don't think MCJ is going to opt out. 

Same with this guy.

Same with Hoopshype.

So... while you are in your bubble...  disagreeing...  The Wobbly Traffic cone seems to be top 5 on everybody's list. 

Sounds like you just went from 2 to 3 on him.  I'm wearing you down.

[warcore]

47 minutes ago, Diesel said:

When the truth is that Teague is the 2nd PG in this FA class.

Obviously FVV is #1... but are you saying you think Teague is better than Conley, Dragic, Rondo, Dunn?

I'm gonna go get some fresh air. 

[Diesel]

12 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Sounds like you just went from 2 to 3 on him.  I'm wearing you down.

Dragic had a good season... but age?  I suspect that he'll have a better season than Teague but Teague hold the record of most playoff appearances in a row...

He could end up in Miami playing next to Jimmy Jam again. 

[AHF]

22 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I don't have a problem with your system.  However, for the BU PG spot, I'm not spending more than the MLE so I have highlighted some guys off your list.  While I like Dunn, he's certainly too high dollar for us.   Some of these guys don't really bring what we need.  Clarkson is Evan Turner pt 2.

 

I don't mind paying more than the MLE on a one-year deal assuming we don't make some big splash addition that dries up all our cap space.  

I'm not sure I understand the Clarkson / Turner comparison.  To me, Clarkson is a solid scoring backup guard who will defend (how well?) opposing point guards.  Doesn't present the same soul-crushing lack of range as Turner and so is easier to integrate into any number of teams.  Not a great player but one who can come in and give some punch to a second unit.

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, warcore said:

Obviously FVV is #1... but are you saying you think Teague is better than Conley, Dragic, Rondo, Dunn?

I'm gonna go get some fresh air. 

Conley... no.. but Conley is not going to opt out of 34 million after the season that he just had.   Rondo... at this stage.. for a whole season Yes.   Dunn.... Toss up , Dunn is definitely younger.. but Dunn couldn't hit an outside shot if he was outside and Dunn hasn't shown that he can move an offense in and out of sets.  Dragic No.. but depends on the length of the deal.  So 3rd is about right. 

 

 

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

Dragic had a good season... but age?  I suspect that he'll have a better season than Teague but Teague hold the record of most playoff appearances in a row...

He could end up in Miami playing next to Jimmy Jam again. 

Dragic and Teague are two years apart.  Both should be looked as short-term members of the roster.  You take Dragic if you have the choice (he handled more minutes in did more in those minutes than Teague) but he will be more coveted by contenders so I don't think we will have the option to sign him even if we are willing to overpay.  But you don't know until you ask.

[AHF]

Just now, Diesel said:

Conley... no.. but Conley is not going to opt out of 34 million after the season that he just had.   Rondo... at this stage.. for a whole season Yes.   Dunn.... Toss up , Dunn is definitely younger.. but Dunn couldn't hit an outside shot if he was outside and Dunn hasn't shown that he can move an offense in and out of sets.  Dragic No.. but depends on the length of the deal.  So 3rd is about right. 

 

 

I see Teague as being roughly equal in impact to the guys in this tier.  It isn't like there is a huge difference.  Some are better on defense or offense but all are flawed.

Jeff Teague

DJ Augustin

Reggie Jackson

Austin Rivers

De'Anthony Melton

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

I don't mind paying more than the MLE on a one-year deal assuming we don't make some big splash addition that dries up all our cap space.  

I'm not sure I understand the Clarkson / Turner comparison.  To me, Clarkson is a solid scoring backup guard who will defend (how well?) opposing point guards.  Doesn't present the same soul-crushing lack of range as Turner and so is easier to integrate into any number of teams.  Not a great player but one who can come in and give some punch to a second unit.

I like Clarkson's shooting but when Trae leaves the floor, the element that we miss is playmaker.  Trae does so much for us that we sometimes miss the fact that he's a really good playmaker.  I think that is what the Evan Turner experiment was really about.   A guy who can spell and play beside Trae who can find his points.  The problem is that when Turner was on the floor, nobody else could find their points because a PG is a born with it thing.  You gotta to be birthed as a PG and nothing in Turner said PG... really not even OG.   The same I I believe is true about Clarkson.  It's not in his DNA.  He's the guy waiting on Lebron to dish him the pass so that he can hit the open shot.   He has a handle but he's not going to be able to move teams in and out of their sets. 

 

[Diesel]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

Dragic and Teague are two years apart.  Both should be looked as short-term members of the roster.  You take Dragic if you have the choice (he handled more minutes in did more in those minutes than Teague) but he will be more coveted by contenders so I don't think we will have the option to sign him even if we are willing to overpay.  But you don't know until you ask.

I don't disagree with you.  I mentioned Dragic's age because around that age.. especially PGs begin to wind down.  You remember Mark Jackson.  So while I hold Dragic in high esteem because of the many who has been listed he is a natural PG... I just don't know about his ability to keep up what he has going right now.  Also, I think his success may be to his downfall.   IN Miami, one of the best coaches in History found a niche for Dragic.   He's going to be offered a lot of cash to go elsewhere but I don't think elsewhere he will have that same niche. 

Just now, Diesel said:

I don't disagree with you.  I mentioned Dragic's age because around that age.. especially PGs begin to wind down.  You remember Mark Jackson.  So while I hold Dragic in high esteem because of the many who has been listed he is a natural PG... I just don't know about his ability to keep up what he has going right now.  Also, I think his success may be to his downfall.   IN Miami, one of the best coaches in History found a niche for Dragic.   He's going to be offered a lot of cash to go elsewhere but I don't think elsewhere he will have that same niche. 

Hello MCJ.

 

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

I like Clarkson's shooting but when Trae leaves the floor, the element that we miss is playmaker.  Trae does so much for us that we sometimes miss the fact that he's a really good playmaker.  I think that is what the Evan Turner experiment was really about.   A guy who can spell and play beside Trae who can find his points.  The problem is that when Turner was on the floor, nobody else could find their points because a PG is a born with it thing.  You gotta to be birthed as a PG and nothing in Turner said PG... really not even OG.   The same I I believe is true about Clarkson.  It's not in his DNA.  He's the guy waiting on Lebron to dish him the pass so that he can hit the open shot.   He has a handle but he's not going to be able to move teams in and out of their sets. 

 

Evan Turner is all about the opposite of finding points.  Guy is a pure negative from a scoring perspective and his scoring limitations are the most severe of any aspect of his game.

I do agree he is not the playmaker that people tried to turn him into either.  Nor can he defend like people enjoyed pretending.  

But he is worse at scoring than any of that other stuff and it compounds any problems a team otherwise has with spacing and floor movement.

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

I see Teague as being roughly equal in impact to the guys in this tier.  It isn't like there is a huge difference.  Some are better on defense or offense but all are flawed.

Jeff Teague

DJ Augustin

Reggie Jackson

Austin Rivers

De'Anthony Melton

Yeah.. the disrespect in your Tiers is putting Dunn and Clarkson on Tier's 2 and 3 of your PG list. 

Dunn = Can't shoot.  

Clarkson = OG skillset. 

I would want Dunn for his Defense.   I would want Clarkson because he can hit an open shot.   However, to call them PGs... and rank them with MCJ and higher than Teague, Augustin and even Rivers is disrespectful. 

Now... Augustin is an old 32.  but he's still a better PG than Dunn and Clarkson.   Note I said PG not player.  The same is true of Teague.  Rivers is a sexy choice.   The guy has youth, tenacity, and could be a good PG and Player.. we just haven't seen it all come together and I say it's mainly because of where he has played. 

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Yeah.. the disrespect in your Tiers is putting Dunn and Clarkson on Tier's 2 and 3 of your PG list. 

Dunn = Can't shoot.  

Clarkson = OG skillset. 

I would want Dunn for his Defense.   I would want Clarkson because he can hit an open shot.   However, to call them PGs... and rank them with MCJ and higher than Teague, Augustin and even Rivers is disrespectful. 

Now... Augustin is an old 32.  but he's still a better PG than Dunn and Clarkson.   Note I said PG not player.  The same is true of Teague.  Rivers is a sexy choice.   The guy has youth, tenacity, and could be a good PG and Player.. we just haven't seen it all come together and I say it's mainly because of where he has played. 

I'd rather have Dunn or Clarkson because of their age.  They are both largely niche players but they are better at that niche than the others and can keep the offense functional while they are on the floor.

I don't mind putting them down in the same tier as Teague if you want but I think Rondo is clearly more desired (granted in large part for what how he elevates his teams in the playoffs) than anyone in that tier while he probably is not as desired as Dunn who is a defensive standout.  Clarkson may be more of a stretch but I was guessing he would get paid.  

Teague doesn't stand out over any of those players to me.  If we get one instead of him or if we resign Teague I'll kind of shrug my shoulders.  Only thing I'll get upset by is if we give a declining guy a long-term deal (Teague is a declining guy).

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Evan Turner is all about the opposite of finding points.  Guy is a pure negative from a scoring perspective and his scoring limitations are the most severe of any aspect of his game.

I do agree he is not the playmaker that people tried to turn him into either.  Nor can he defend like people enjoyed pretending.  

But he is worse at scoring than any of that other stuff and it compounds any problems a team otherwise has with spacing and floor movement.

That's the thing.. when you make a tweener like Turner into a PG and call him a PG.. the only reason you're doing it is because he can defend little guys and he can score over little guys.  The problem with Turner is that he couldn't score over little guys.   Defensive minded coaches say.. you are what you can defend.  I would add a corollary to that... that doesn't apply to PGs and Cs.   The PGs skillset is too collaborative to be used with the indifference that we showed with Turner and I see a similar mistake with Clarkson. 

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

That's the thing.. when you make a tweener like Turner into a PG and call him a PG.. the only reason you're doing it is because he can defend little guys and he can score over little guys.  The problem with Turner is that he couldn't score over little guys.   Defensive minded coaches say.. you are what you can defend.  I would add a corollary to that... that doesn't apply to PGs and Cs.   The PGs skillset is too collaborative to be used with the indifference that we showed with Turner and I see a similar mistake with Clarkson. 

I'm good if you want to put Clarkson on your "do not sign" list.  Your comment that he has an off-guard skillset is totally fair.  Clearly if we signed him, we would need to more playmaking from Huert / Cam in the shooting guard spot.  I do think both will continue to show more of that dimension to their game.  

[Diesel]

Just now, AHF said:

I'd rather have Dunn or Clarkson because of their age.  They are both largely niche players but they are better at that niche than the others and can keep the offense functional while they are on the floor.

I don't mind putting them down in the same tier as Teague if you want but I think Rondo is clearly more desired (granted in large part for what how he elevates his teams in the playoffs) than anyone in that tier while he probably is not as desired as Dunn.  Clarkson may be more of a stretch but I was guessing he would get paid.  

I like Playoff Rondo.  I dread Regular Season Rondo.  I think people will get fool's gold with Rondo.  Right now, I think Rondo is ready for his Vince Carter....  play sparingly into the playoffs and then get ready to coach after that. 

As far as Dunn and Clarkson...  That's a toss up.  I hear what you're saying about Age... and I'm not against that if we're taking longer than 2 years but we need to understand that we're getting mainly a backup.   This is us picking Shelvin Mack.  Dunn for his defense and Clarkson because he can shoot.. the problem with Clarkson and maybe both is that we would have to get a secondary playmaker for the second team. 

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

40 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I like Clarkson's shooting but when Trae leaves the floor, the element that we miss is playmaker.  Trae does so much for us that we sometimes miss the fact that he's a really good playmaker.  I think that is what the Evan Turner experiment was really about.   A guy who can spell and play beside Trae who can find his points.  The problem is that when Turner was on the floor, nobody else could find their points because a PG is a born with it thing.  You gotta to be birthed as a PG and nothing in Turner said PG... really not even OG.   The same I I believe is true about Clarkson.  It's not in his DNA.  He's the guy waiting on Lebron to dish him the pass so that he can hit the open shot.   He has a handle but he's not going to be able to move teams in and out of their sets. 

 

That experiment was a favour to Baze.  It was a bad trade, the only good thing was his contract was also expiring.

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Also, I think the Lakers beating Houston showed why 2 guard systems can't succeed.  And Houston had the best 2 guard system possible.  When the time comes, you need a distributor and you need a shooting threat. 

 

Yep...gotta have one quality big for when the guards are off.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

Yep...gotta have one quality big for when the guards are off.

That too.  But more often than not.. when you don't have assignments that are definite.. it ends up in loss.   Look at some of the great historical teams that tried small ball.

Three Bombardiers  - Ehlo, Brandon and Price.   

Phoenix - KJ and Ainge  then KJ, Kidd, and Nash.  

Houston - Wesbrook and Harden. 

Golden State - Steph Curry and Monta Ellis... with Nate Robinson.

Atlanta - Jason Terry and Dan Dickau  Or whoever we tried to match JT with and call him OG.  hello Matt Maloney.