The Truth about Lloyd Pierce (Insider Thread)

[REHawksFan]

24 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

A lot of it was luck. An elite coach ain't worth that many wins. A terrible coach isn't worth that many losses. A lot of this was luck. Same happened to Steve Kerr and Mark Jackson. Steve ain't 16 wins and a title better than Mark. In fact, there is a chance Mark could have more wins than Steve in many scenarios. 

Who knew slowing down the pace would turn Bogi into a better Klay Thompson? Who knew Trae would be more discipline with a slower pace? Who knew Kevin would be a much better defender if the defense is always set? Gallo might be one player we did know would benefit from a style change but we didn't know that for the others, especially Bogi who's been in an uptempo system for most of his career outside of his rookie year. I guess Bogi being the best player on the Kings as a rookie could have been a sign but they were terrible as a squad and most of the squad had to play fast to have success. Just saying, we didn't know. Sometimes these things just perfectly fit. 

I think I'm missing something.  Everything you say (other than saying it's lucky) seems to point to the decisions Nate made being directly responsible for the turnaround.  How is that luck?  Are you saying Nate slowed everything down on accident?  That he somehow lucked into slowing the pace?  Why slow things down if he didn't suspect it would make a difference?  Isn't that what coaches do?  They try things when what they've been doing isn't working.  

You seem to paint a very clear picture that Nate is ultimately responsible for the drastic team improvement but then discount it by saying it's lucky.  I don't follow that.  

 

[kg01]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I am just an IT professional who has contacts in high places due to my previous career choices and the company I used to keep. 

I'm sure you put in a lotta work, bro.

[Gray Mule]

Sounds like a super GM in the making!

[marco102]

57 minutes ago, thecampster said:

I can vouch for some of this...but that's a lot of getting up in people's business I'm not comfortable with. The Cam thing is one of the better kept secrets in the league. When Cam gets back, do not be surprised if he looks bigger/more cut.  One of the things they argued about was core strength. Weight training and building is just harder for some but the org has been on Cam to work on his body to take his athleticism and consistency to the next level.  LP gave Cam tough love but Cam didn't respond well.  Not a knock on either.

Cam already looks visibly bigger on the sidelines as far as muscle mass. 

[NBASupes]

16 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

I think I'm missing something.  Everything you say (other than saying it's lucky) seems to point to the decisions Nate made being directly responsible for the turnaround.  How is that luck?  Are you saying Nate slowed everything down on accident?  That he somehow lucked into slowing the pace?  Why slow things down if he didn't suspect it would make a difference?  Isn't that what coaches do?  They try things when what they've been doing isn't working.  

You seem to paint a very clear picture that Nate is ultimately responsible for the drastic team improvement but then discount it by saying it's lucky.  I don't follow that.  

 

Luck - the things that happen to a person because of chance : the accidental way things happen without being planned. It wasn't planned that this team would become this good because of these changes. 

Nate slowed things down because that's his style even if the system is LP's. He does that everywhere he goes. Look at Portland, Seattle, Indy, and now the Hawks. 

Yes, he did. He got lucky. Even when he takes over for the fired HC, he hasn't really changed their wins that much. When Paul Westphal got fired, they won one more game that season than the previous season. Nate also had a higher win percentage as a HC in Seattle but nothing significant. 

In Portland, he won 6 less games than the previous season. 

In Indy, he won 3 less games than Frank Vogel in the previous season. 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/mcmilna01c.html

Nate is a tremendous gameday coach, hell I would say elite, but overall, he's been a good coach. Nothing special. Not elite. LP has a lot more coaching talent, everyone in the coaching circles knows this as well. Nate simply got lucky.

He was a perfect fit for this squad like Steve Kerr for the Warriors. 

 

In just 3 games that LP was out, Nate was 2-1 against Boston twice when healthy and Denver when healthy. These were tough games and he just fit perfectly. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Sounds like a super GM in the making!

He can be a great coach. He just needs a lot of gameday coaching training. I hope he's watching Nate and seeing how Nate wasn't scared to bench Trae in the 4th quarter when he was playing stupid. He pulls Trae for the final defensive play of the game. He wasn't trying to give Trae learning lessons, he understood,  Trae could be a liability. Let me use my best defenders to get this stop. LP never did that. Nate values winning. LP values the process. When LP can marry his value for the process with winning with the right personnel group that fits his style of play, he could have tremendous success in this league. 

[NBASupes]

Edited, 12 made the no sense when I reread it. 

12. LP will have an uphill battle to get another job so soon. LP is extremely popular, even his analysis on the game is money. He still beloved by the coaches so he will get a chance sooner than later. Just not sure if it's this year. Coaches really really like him. He's seen in a high light but he got steep competition 

[Jdawgflow]

14 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Luck - the things that happen to a person because of chance : the accidental way things happen without being planned. It wasn't planned that this team would become this good because of these changes. 

Nate slowed things down because that's his style even if the system is LP's. He does that everywhere he goes. Look at Portland, Seattle, Indy, and now the Hawks. 

Yes, he did. He got lucky. Even when he takes over for the fired HC, he hasn't really changed their wins that much. When Paul Westphal got fired, they won one more game that season than the previous season. Nate also had a higher win percentage as a HC in Seattle but nothing significant. 

In Portland, he won 6 less games than the previous season. 

In Indy, he won 3 less games than Frank Vogel in the previous season. 

https://www.basketball-reference.com/coaches/mcmilna01c.html

Nate is a tremendous gameday coach, hell I would say elite, but overall, he's been a good coach. Nothing special. Not elite. LP has a lot more coaching talent, everyone in the coaching circles knows this as well. Nate simply got lucky.

He was a perfect fit for this squad like Steve Kerr for the Warriors. 

 

In just 3 games that LP was out, Nate was 2-1 against Boston twice when healthy and Denver when healthy. These were tough games and he just fit perfectly. 

This is you talking in circles.  Or at least that is what I am reading.  Luck, skill, better, not better.  
 

I am of the opinion that Nate is a significant upgrade over LP.  Not due to luck but skill as a coach.  Therefore, to me Nate is a much better coach.  LP May be a good coach one day but right now he is not.

PS- and the opinions of other coaches in the shadows (or a few defending “their guy” publicly…mainly for his efforts outside of basketball) do not sway my opinion at all

[hylndr11]

First off - thanks Supes for your time writing all this and sharing, but some of this is highly contradictory unless Im reading this wrong.  

How is LP this wunderkind of talent for picking players if Trae didnt fit in his system? why would LP fall in love with him if he is too reckless for his system.

Why did they fall in love with Cam, they had no way of telling he was passive in pre draft etc, plenty of other teams did?. 

What are we saying here regarding Trae ? it came off as we drafted the wrong guy - this type of player being described is not usually what you want to build a team around, unless you are now saying that he is changing ?   

I dont know about the pace argument, yea sure but its not some dumb luck slowing things down for the players is something that happens naturally would be discovered in practice, if LP never recognized it but the Nate did it soon as LP left, that is another reason LP is missing some major aspects, 

Psychology is probably the biggest part of coaching, especially at the highest level, being able to motivate different personalities is huge and is the real skill many will argue,  this sounds like was a big issue with LP

Finally - I mean, I am super excited for and about Trae but really - why did we do the trade? we had Luka, I am not saying I like him better or any of that, from a pure objective stance - the guy is doing some crazy shit, yes, hopefully his pro experience is driving this and Trae will get much better than he is, but damn this guy might be the next real great one, we actually had him.  This info about the behind the scenes makes me wonder about all of this, did we really like Trea better or did we just want to get another player?? is it that simple?

 

THanks again supes

 

 

 

 

[bleachkit]

We are still beating this dead horse? Let it go.

[NBASupes]

Just now, hylndr11 said:

First off - thanks Supes for your time writing all this and sharing, but some of this is highly contradictory unless Im reading this wrong.  

How is LP this wunderkind of talent for picking players if Trae didnt fit in his system? why would LP fall in love with him if he is too reckless for his system.

Why did they fall in love with Cam, they had no way of telling he was passive in pre draft etc, plenty of other teams did?. 

What are we saying here regarding Trae ? it came off as we drafted the wrong guy - this type of player being described is not usually what you want to build a team around, unless you are now saying that he is changing ?   

I dont know about the pace argument, yea sure but its not some dumb luck slowing things down for the players is something that happens naturally would be discovered in practice, if LP never recognized it but the Nate did it soon as LP left, that is another reason LP is missing some major aspects, 

Psychology is probably the biggest part of coaching, especially at the highest level, being able to motivate different personalities is huge and is the real skill many will argue,  this sounds like was a big issue with LP

Finally - I mean, I am super excited for and about Trae but really - why did we do the trade? we had Luka, I am not saying I like him better or any of that, from a pure objective stance - the guy is doing some crazy shit, yes, hopefully his pro experience is driving this and Trae will get much better than he is, but damn this guy might be the next real great one, we actually had him.  This info about the behind the scenes makes me wonder about all of this, did we really like Trea better or did we just want to get another player?? is it that simple?

 

THanks again supes

 

 

 

 

He did fit the system, hence his production and success. He didn't fit LPs style. Before Nate, most didn't think Trae could play winning Basketball. He is still playing in LPs system.

TS and the scouts knew of the issues with Reddish. Coach K and his staff didn't hide them or anything. Sometimes coaches think they got the magic touch. LP was one of them. He felt once he gets Cam, he will instantly turn him into a star. During Cam 2nd half success and carried that into his summer and it was part of the reason he didn't get fired that summer, Tony was really thinking about it.

Tony didn't believe in LP as much as TS did but Cam improvement brought LP some time. They were really proud of that. Tony really was bothered by Luka success, something TS doesn't care about as much. Tony wants Trae to have success like Luka is having. Tony just wants to win, he's like most owners aren't super patient but Tony will spend and that's why we love him as fans. That's why he was so hard on Cam this year compared to his rookie year. Without VC, Cam really didn't have that vet to protect him either. Cam, coach Hunt, and LP really played a role in Cams feat from suck to wow as a rookie. To see his regression really bothered LP. TS always through Cam would take time. 

I do think psychology is an area LP is weak at and if he isn't, he just didn't value the players opinion as much as his and his staff, then he has some growing to do which is moreso maturity based.

Tony liked Luka or Trae the most. TS/Peterson/scouts liked JJJ and LP loved Trae. Since Trae was 2nd for TS, wasn't too high for the scouts or Peterson, 2nd for Tony and 1st for LP. 

Truth is LP won out. If the majority rules, JJJ would be the pick. Dennis behavior really is what did the majority rules in. He was a f*** up and he was already f***ing up with LP. LP wanted him out. They needed a replacement. Luka was actually rated higher by our scouts and Tony than Trae. But TS and LP was sold on Trae offense and what he could be to Atlanta and how he could be big like Steph Curry in his prime. Atlanta didn't see Trae being this good, this fast and they didn't see Luka being this good period. They thought Luka could be an all star, even a multi time All Star. But not a superstar and not this. They actually liked Trae superstar potential even more than Luka. 

No one thought Luka would be this good. No one in league circles. But I will say this, draftniks thought he would be a superstar so I can't say no one saw this. But the best player in the NBA potentially? Idk about that, I asked about this and I always get the same answer. He is much better than anyone thinks he was going to be who scouted him at Madrid. 

 

 

[thecampster]

40 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Cam already looks visibly bigger on the sidelines as far as muscle mass. 

The strength thing wasn't really bulk but they wanted him to increase joint/ligament strength. It's part of the reason for the loose handles, jumper inconsistency. But it would naturally lead to him looking bigger as well.

 

[thecampster]

23 minutes ago, hylndr11 said:

First off - thanks Supes for your time writing all this and sharing, but some of this is highly contradictory unless Im reading this wrong.  

How is LP this wunderkind of talent for picking players if Trae didnt fit in his system? why would LP fall in love with him if he is too reckless for his system.

Why did they fall in love with Cam, they had no way of telling he was passive in pre draft etc, plenty of other teams did?. 

What are we saying here regarding Trae ? it came off as we drafted the wrong guy - this type of player being described is not usually what you want to build a team around, unless you are now saying that he is changing ?   

I dont know about the pace argument, yea sure but its not some dumb luck slowing things down for the players is something that happens naturally would be discovered in practice, if LP never recognized it but the Nate did it soon as LP left, that is another reason LP is missing some major aspects, 

Psychology is probably the biggest part of coaching, especially at the highest level, being able to motivate different personalities is huge and is the real skill many will argue,  this sounds like was a big issue with LP

Finally - I mean, I am super excited for and about Trae but really - why did we do the trade? we had Luka, I am not saying I like him better or any of that, from a pure objective stance - the guy is doing some crazy shit, yes, hopefully his pro experience is driving this and Trae will get much better than he is, but damn this guy might be the next real great one, we actually had him.  This info about the behind the scenes makes me wonder about all of this, did we really like Trea better or did we just want to get another player?? is it that simple?

 

THanks again supes

 

 

 

 

To be fair, that's always been Supes writing style. He always says way more than he has to, mainly because he's worked it over in his head so much that what he types doesn't seem like much in comparison. When you use 10,000 words to say "I'm hungry", you're going to confuse any chef.

[hylndr11]

7 minutes ago, thecampster said:

To be fair, that's always been Supes writing style. He always says way more than he has to, mainly because he's worked it over in his head so much that what he types doesn't seem like much in comparison. When you use 10,000 words to say "I'm hungry", you're going to confuse any chef.

I tend to have the same problem so I figured Id just ask for some clarity, 

[bleachkit]

51 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Cam already looks visibly bigger on the sidelines as far as muscle mass. 

Grew another 3 inches as well

[marco102]

3 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Grew another 3 inches as well

Yup.

[kg01]

4 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Grew another 3 inches as well

We are still beating this dead horse? Let it go.

[HawkingAwesome]

so cam is now 7'5? 305?

[thecampster]

31 minutes ago, hylndr11 said:

First off - thanks Supes for your time writing all this and sharing, but some of this is highly contradictory unless Im reading this wrong.  

How is LP this wunderkind of talent for picking players if Trae didnt fit in his system? why would LP fall in love with him if he is too reckless for his system.

Why did they fall in love with Cam, they had no way of telling he was passive in pre draft etc, plenty of other teams did?. 

What are we saying here regarding Trae ? it came off as we drafted the wrong guy - this type of player being described is not usually what you want to build a team around, unless you are now saying that he is changing ?   

I dont know about the pace argument, yea sure but its not some dumb luck slowing things down for the players is something that happens naturally would be discovered in practice, if LP never recognized it but the Nate did it soon as LP left, that is another reason LP is missing some major aspects, 

Psychology is probably the biggest part of coaching, especially at the highest level, being able to motivate different personalities is huge and is the real skill many will argue,  this sounds like was a big issue with LP

Finally - I mean, I am super excited for and about Trae but really - why did we do the trade? we had Luka, I am not saying I like him better or any of that, from a pure objective stance - the guy is doing some crazy shit, yes, hopefully his pro experience is driving this and Trae will get much better than he is, but damn this guy might be the next real great one, we actually had him.  This info about the behind the scenes makes me wonder about all of this, did we really like Trea better or did we just want to get another player?? is it that simple?

 

THanks again supes

 

 

 

 

Lemme try that.  There were some intense discussions before that draft about who to go after.  4 players were hotly debated on this board with several ring leaders.

NBASupes (Bagley)

Me and a few others (Young)

AHF and posse (Luka)

KB21 (Jaren Jackson).

 

there were 2 arguments presented on the Luka/Trae comparison that stuck out.

Me - Luka is a Euro and will get beaten up in the NBA. 

Others - Trae's too small and his game won't translate to the physical game of the NBA.

 

AHF and I were in direct opposition but much politer to each other than Supes/KB21.  At the same time, there were fierce debates about spending our money to rebuild, not tank (something we eventually did by the way). One of the arguments I made was about the value of trading down for more assets. The Dallas pick wasn't thought to be a lottery pick the next year and didn't come with enough protection. That pick led to Cam. There was also disagreement about what role Luka would play in the modern NBA. We were ready to move on from Dennis Schröder who angered teammates, local law enforcement and was only popular with a select few. We needed a point guard to pair with Collins and of the 2, the consensus was Trae was better suited to be a point guard and lock up that position. That we ended up with Cam Reddish out of it is an unforeseen bonus.

 

I still have doubts about Luka. He has a lot of miles on that body and can be lazy in the offseason (came into camp 10lbs overweight). Time will tell who made the right move, I'm just glad we didn't take Bagley or Jackson. Both are good players but neither of them is Trae Young.

[bleachkit]

26 minutes ago, kg01 said:

We are still beating this dead horse? Let it go.

He makes Kevin Durant look like Spud Webb. Cam is one tall m'fer.