The Truth about Lloyd Pierce (Insider Thread)

[NBASupes]

8 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I think another underappreciated aspect of drafting is the team situation and development.  There are so many factors that allow guys to flourish or hinder their development and every team situation is different.  It's possible JJJ gets to the Hawks and gets molded into an all-NBA player -- you just never know.  Getting into the right situation is important for players and drafting guys that buy into the team culture, the game plans, etc. is also super important.  It's one reason I think that Trae and Luka both landed in very good situations.  I just don't know if they'd both be doling as well as they are if they swapped teams.

JJJ ain't built like that. 

[Spud2nique]

40 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Emphasis on 'was', bro

[Cwell]

8 hours ago, Jdawgflow said:

That argument you just made about luck confirms to me that there is no way luck is the only factor.  Statistically, the likelihood of this big of a turnaround almost primarily by a coaching change is minuscule.  We are going to have to agree to disagree.

Exactly. A blind squirrel should be able to slip and fall into a 4 game win streak atleast once in 2.5 years. Especially with the young talent we had. Majority of our early losses we were leading in the 4th quarter, injuries or not. Going from the worst 4th quarter team in the league to the best the very second you switch coaches is not luck. We lost to Cleveland and Dallas coming off 10 game losing streaks. These are not coincidences. Pierce leaves to have a baby, we play Boston tough twice and go 2-1. Pierce comes back and we get smoked by OKC...

[Jdawgflow]

6 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

One has 15+ years of coaching experience, the other not so much....just like most things in life.  The more you do something, the better you become at it. (that is the hope at least).

One would hope.  But as we all know in our jobs, experience does not always = better.  There are many people who are just more talented at baseline.

[Jdawgflow]

2 hours ago, terrell said:

I'll never look at Travis the same, knowing he wanted JJJ over Trae, and RJ and Culver over Hunter........lol..

Not sure if this is gospel info.

but it is definitely fun to read about!

[bleachkit]

3 hours ago, terrell said:

I'll never look at Travis the same, knowing he wanted JJJ over Trae, and RJ and Culver over Hunter........lol..

All that matters is who you drafted. Who you have liked or didnt like doesn't matter. You draft who you draft and that's what counts. 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

10 hours ago, NBASupes said:

A lot of it was luck. An elite coach ain't worth that many wins. A terrible coach isn't worth that many losses. A lot of this was luck. Same happened to Steve Kerr and Mark Jackson. Steve ain't 16 wins and a title better than Mark. In fact, there is a chance Mark could have more wins than Steve in many scenarios. 

Who knew slowing down the pace would turn Bogi into a better Klay Thompson? Who knew Trae would be more discipline with a slower pace? Who knew Kevin would be a much better defender if the defense is always set? Gallo might be one player we did know would benefit from a style change but we didn't know that for the others, especially Bogi who's been in an uptempo system for most of his career outside of his rookie year. I guess Bogi being the best player on the Kings as a rookie could have been a sign but they were terrible as a squad and most of the squad had to play fast to have success. Just saying, we didn't know. Sometimes these things just perfectly fit. 

 

The only thing you can consider "luck" about Nate's tenure, is that he got Bogi back as soon as he took over as head coach.

Everything else . . no way.

We all saw instantly how different they were playing, from the pace of play, to actual plays called for individual players ( namely John Collins ).  The most damming thing to me about LP, was his affinity for "small ball".  Whether it be the 2 PG lineups, to playing Collins and Gallo on the frontline, with Capela on the bench at the end of games, LP's rotations were detrimental to the team.  It personally was driving me crazy back in January, that LP didn't see the maximum value in playing Collins and Capela together as much as possible.

Nate slowing the pace of play down, while also deploying better defensive schemes, helped the Hawks the most in the 4th quarter. They're a poised 4th quarter team now, than a team that seemed as if they didn't know how to close out games . . because the coach didn't know how to either.

And while we don't lose often under Nate these days, I don't hear him throwing his players under the bus after a loss, like LP routinely did.

Nate brought to the team what they needed the most.   Stability.

With LP, it was apprehension and doubt.

[AHF]

6 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

At least half of this board wanted Bagley but word got out that Sac was taking him. Almost everyone hoped that Luka went before we picked so that we didn't have to make a decision on the guy. Nobody knew he would turn out this good, it was pure hype and speculation back then and Hawks fans knew, we would be damned if we did and damned if we didnt take him, which is why we wanted him off the board to alleviate that pressure. To flip him for Trae and a 1st round pick was always seen as a huge win for us, because we at least knew that we got the guy we wanted, and not the guy we were forced to draft.

A lot of us wanted Luka pretty badly.  

[aali34]

I remember @KB21 saying if the pick was Trae than 19th was gonna be Huerter.

People legit thought the Hawks were building a Waffle House Warriors team lol

[thecampster]

36 minutes ago, aali34 said:

I remember @KB21 saying if the pick was Trae than 19th was gonna be Huerter.

People legit thought the Hawks were building a Waffle House Warriors team lol

I argued with him that there was no way Huerter would be there at 19, injuries or no.  I thought he was going end of the lottery. Never dreamed he'd fall to us.

[NBASupes]

3 hours ago, thecampster said:

I argued with him that there was no way Huerter would be there at 19, injuries or no.  I thought he was going end of the lottery. Never dreamed he'd fall to us.

Technically, he shouldn't have been there. Is Jerome Robinson still in the NBA? 

[JTB]

17 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Edited, 12 made the no sense when I reread it. 

12. LP will have an uphill battle to get another job so soon. LP is extremely popular, even his analysis on the game is money. He still beloved by the coaches so he will get a chance sooner than later. Just not sure if it's this year. Coaches really really like him. He's seen in a high light but he got steep competition 

If he gets the Boston job it would surprise me but I hear he’s in the running along with many of course.
Anyways  Despite everything you’re saying the fact that LP is not yet a “game day” coach is going to hurt him big time .

Good that he can spot talent and draw up a offensive scheme and has this modern day overall vision BUT on game day if you’re losing because you want to “trust the process” over getting Ws when you have the talent on your roster all this other talent he has flys out the door! I don’t care what organization he goes to, he need to start coaching to win games. 
 

im not impressed with LP despite those good things you mentioned personally. I still believe he has an ego as coach and you pretty much confirmed it. I’m cool with egos as a coach if you have a winning track record but for LP he need a reality check in my opinion. You said it best it was never going to work here with him and Trae since there was tension but what surprises me is that TS and LP had this great relationship and LP convinces everyone that Trae is not a winner yet TS still fires LP even though he convinced him Trae is not a winner.....so what made TS do the coaching change? 
 

LP to me shouldn’t have this kind of influence on the coaches across the league. I get all the highlights but hindsight is 20/20...he bashed his own star player in Trae saying he’s not a winner giving him a bad name around the league among coaches  ...why would do that to your own star player??? and as another coach why are you intrigued by a coach putting down his franchise star player they are building around. That’s the most bizarre thing about LP to me ....it’s like he wanted all the praise and he wanted to be right about everything.

then as the other coaches who’s listening to LP say all of this they need a history lesson I guess! Trae is still a kid and it’s unfair to come out and say a guy who’s only been in the league at that time 2 years isn’t a winner. Trae just got to the playoffs in year 3 just like lebron James got to his first playoffs in year 3...but Trae isn’t a winner??? Did any of them stop to think LP is judging the kid way too early???

 

just because you respect someone doesn’t mean you have to agree with their outlook on things. The hawks taking off under Nate should indicate that LP was wrong about his assessment with a ton things despite being talented....you can call that unlucky but I think it should be followed with ignorance and stubbornness cause that’s also what LP displayed.

[thecampster]

15 hours ago, sturt said:

 

Edit: To no one in particular...

I know it's a pipe dream... probably mine alone... but I've become increasingly infatuated with what Cam could add to this roster if he was anointed a Shaun Livingston kind of role.

In defense of its practicality, many probably are still unaware that he came to Duke having the reputation of an elite HS point guard, and both as a scorer and as a distributor. Were Schlenk to be able to add a KCP or similar asset to him and Huerter in that second unit, that's some strong coffee in that backcourt both offensively and defensively.

So there's this "ghost" position on every NBA medical staff. Usually its a hired consultant on retainer. I have no idea who we use (if anyone). One of their jobs is to assess the physical health and mental well being of the players. It was kind of a big deal in the 90's and the players hated it. Felt like big brother was watching them.  One of the things they do is to assess players the team is drafting and do body analysis from photos, measurements, etc and try to determine their optimal playing weight, if they'll keep growing, etc. There are legal limits to what they encourage their players to do, become physically but they do discuss it.

I would pay real life money and a little bit of crypto to get my hands on their reports on Cam. I'd love to see where they project him size, stature wise. Future projection of role. If I had to guess, they envision him as a big 3/stretch 4 down the road with point forward skills. It will be interesting to see how he develops and if he buys in now that Nate is in charge. Nate's let men be men approach seems like a good fit for Cam.

Edited June 5, 2021 by thecampster

[thecampster]

1 minute ago, thecampster said:

So there's this "ghost" position on every NBA medical staff. Usually its a hired consultant on retainer. I have no idea who we use (if anyone). One of their jobs is to assess the physical health and mental well being of the players. It was kind of a big deal in the 90's and the players hated it. Felt like big brother was watching them.  One of the things they do is to assess players the team is drafting and do body analysis from photos, measurements, etc and try to determine their optimal playing weight, if they'll keep growing, etc. There are legal limits to what they encourage their players to do, become physically but they do discuss it.

I would play real life money and a little bit of crypto to get my hands on their reports on Cam. I'd love to see where they project him size, stature wise. Future projection of role. If I had to guess, they envision him as a big 3/stretch 4 down the road with point forward skills. It will be interesting to see how he develops and if he buys in now that Nate is in charge. Nate's let men be men approach seems like a good fit for Cam.

woah that was easy...an expired job posting for just such a position  https://www.velvetjobs.com/job-posting/player-health-specialist-p34722904

[thecampster]

6 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Technically, he shouldn't have been there. Is Jerome Robinson still in the NBA? 

https://www.nba.com/player/1629010/jerome-robinson/bio

Still taking up space.

[thecampster]

17 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Oh yeah, Bamba.... some posters were all about that guy and his size.

At least half of this board wanted Bagley but word got out that Sac was taking him. Almost everyone hoped that Luka went before we picked so that we didn't have to make a decision on the guy. Nobody knew he would turn out this good, it was pure hype and speculation back then and Hawks fans knew, we would be damned if we did and damned if we didnt take him, which is why we wanted him off the board to alleviate that pressure. To flip him for Trae and a 1st round pick was always seen as a huge win for us, because we at least knew that we got the guy we wanted, and not the guy we were forced to draft.

Found an interesting article that some of you might enjoy (for different reasons).  @AHF  @NBASupes  @kg01  @KB21 @Spud2nique @JayBirdHawk 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/luka-doncic-spectacularly-awful-4th-172018670.html

<quote>

Hard to conceive Luka Doncic is your random choke artist.

But by the time the fourth quarter rolls around, the man is gassed having carried the team the previous three quarters. </quote>

[JayBirdHawk]

23 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Found an interesting article that some of you might enjoy (for different reasons).  @AHF  @NBASupes  @kg01  @KB21 @Spud2nique @JayBirdHawk 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/luka-doncic-spectacularly-awful-4th-172018670.html

<quote>

Hard to conceive Luka Doncic is your random choke artist.

But by the time the fourth quarter rolls around, the man is gassed having carried the team the previous three quarters. </quote>

He needs to work on his conditioning. Every year he has been in the league he comes into camp 'chubby'.

 

[bird_dirt]

I have a sneaking suspicion that all the other coaches that were so outraged and speaking about LP's dismissal were really just secretly upset they wouldn't get to play against him anymore. 

Kind of like how I was upset when Isiah Thomas was fired from his GM job. You could always count on winning a good trade with him.

[phoostal]

After reading this thread, I'm wondering why TS has a job.   This thread makes it sound LP picked out every player and TS had no idea who was good or bad.   

Wierd thing TS came from golden state where he was praised for his player personal evaluations.   Even Jerry West was singing his praises.  

I guess when he got here he had no clue.   Seems hard to believe LP was right on personal decisions and TS didn't have any idea what an nba type of player is in this league. 

This reads like an LP fluff piece.   I appreciate you sharing but this seems like a one sided story with the only negative was he was a young coach learning the ropes.

I think TS deserves a little more credit as well as Nate, but I guess we'll find out in the next few years.   Because reading this thread TS and Nate will be lost without LP.

Personally I'm glad LP is gone.  I don't think it's a coincidence the team is succeeding without him. 

[NBASupes]

22 minutes ago, phoostal said:

After reading this thread, I'm wondering why TS has a job.   This thread makes it sound LP picked out every player and TS had no idea who was good or bad.   

Wierd thing TS came from golden state where he was praised for his player personal evaluations.   Even Jerry West was singing his praises.  

I guess when he got here he had no clue.   Seems hard to believe LP was right on personal decisions and TS didn't have any idea what an nba type of player is in this league. 

This reads like an LP fluff piece.   I appreciate you sharing but this seems like a one sided story with the only negative was he was a young coach learning the ropes.

I think TS deserves a little more credit as well as Nate, but I guess we'll find out in the next few years.   Because reading this thread TS and Nate will be lost without LP.

Personally I'm glad LP is gone.  I don't think it's a coincidence the team is succeeding without him. 

He had a clue, he obviously liked Trae and saw some Steph in him. Same for Hunter, Cam, and he was the man behind Kevin and JC pick. The thing is, HC matters. You want to draft a player the HC loves too. LP had a tremendous eye. Here's what's so hard about this. All of these players, even 2nd rounders can really really play ball. 

Some HCs really value defense from their picks aka Bud. Culver was universally seen as a better prospect by the draftnik community than Hunter. Same for R.J. Trae Young was a boom or bust prospect. Let's not have revisionist history on why this ain't that easy at all.