Soaring down South asks a good question...

[RandomFan]

3 hours ago, AHF said:

I don't think anyone has him listed above Mitchell and Tatum. 

I clearly do, and this is a hill I'm prepared to die on. Jimmy Butler consistently calls Bam their best player for a reason. You look at nearly any top players list you can find online and Bam will be top 20 or top 25 on the vast majority of them. But even then he's still undervalued because most of those lists have Tatum ahead of him or on the same tier as Bam.

I chalk that up to people still not fully able to quantify the insane value of Bam's ability to ball switch every position on the floor, 1 thru 5. And not just do it, but do it effectively. It's such a rare unicorn skill that almost nobody knows how to evaluate its importance against traditional drop coverage centers, so they undervalue it. And he is by far the best ball switching center in the NBA.

Bam should be top 3 in DPOY voting every season, and frankly if more people knew what they were looking at he would probably win it damn near every year too. Rudy Gobert, the supposed DPOY, just got roasted in the playoffs and almost had to be taken off the court because he's limited to playing drop coverage, which teams take advantage of in a big way during the postseason.

The beauty of a player like Bam is you don't automatically put yourself at a scheme disadvantage on defense. Whatever they throw at you, you can bounce back and forth between drop coverage or ball switching and not miss a beat. Teams have to line up and beat you with better players, not taking advantage of an inherent scheme weakness. Obviously last season showed that Miami needs better players to put around him, and to also be healthy. 

This is why Okongwu is such a highly valued player for our future. He provides a lot of the same defensive skillset that Bam does; although probably never quite to the same level. 

Did I mention Bam isn't even in his prime yet? Obviously neither are Tatum, Mitchell, or JC, but it seems to me most people treat him like a finished product when talking about him. It's beyond ridiculous to think JC has more value than Bam. There is one skill that JC has that is clearly better than Bam, ONE. And that is shooting from range. Everything else is either similar, like screens, rim runs, low post scoring, or Bam crushes John such as offense initiation ability, passing, and defense by a mectric ton. I love JC for what he is and appreciate that we have him, but get serious and take the homer glasses off folks...

Edited August 27, 2021 by RandomFan

[Diesel]

20 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

I clearly do, and this is a hill I'm prepared to die on. Jimmy Butler consistently calls Bam their best player for a reason. You look at nearly any top players list you can find online and Bam will be top 20 or top 25 on the vast majority of them. But even then he's still undervalued because most of those lists have Tatum ahead of him or on the same tier as Bam.

I chalk that up to people still not fully able to quantify the insane value of Bam's ability to ball switch every position on the floor, 1 thru 5. And not just do it, but do it effectively. It's such a rare unicorn skill that almost nobody knows how to evaluate its importance against traditional drop coverage centers, so they undervalue it. And he is by far the best ball switching center in the NBA.

Bam should be top 3 in DPOY voting every season, and frankly if more people knew what they were looking at he would probably win it damn near every year too. Rudy Gobert, the supposed DPOY, just got roasted in the playoffs and almost had to be taken off the court because he's limited to playing drop coverage, which teams take advantage of in a big way during the postseason.

The beauty of a player like Bam is you don't automatically put yourself at a scheme disadvantage on defense. Whatever they throw at you, you can bounce back and forth between drop coverage or ball switching and not miss a beat. Teams have to line up and beat you with better players, not taking advantage of an inherent scheme weakness. Obviously last season showed that Miami needs better players to put around him, and to also be healthy. 

This is why Okongwu is such a highly valued player for our future. He provides a lot of the same defensive skillset that Bam does; although probably never quite to the same level. 

Did I mention Bam isn't even in his prime yet? Obviously neither are Tatum, Mitchell, or JC, but it seems to me most people treat him like a finished product when talking about him. It's beyond ridiculous to think JC has more value than Bam. There is one skill that JC has that is clearly better than Bam, ONE. And that is shooting from range. Everything else is either similar, like screens, rim runs, low post scoring, or Bam crushes John such as offense initiation ability, passing, and defense by a mectric ton. I love JC for what he is and appreciate that we have him, but get serious and take the homer glasses off folks...

You can play awesome defense.. Great Defense.. but if you're not able to score, you can still lose more than you win.  I'm a guy that like positional defenders.  I like guys who can defend more than their position.   However, most of the time those guys are used to patch a defense and are not often game changing defenders.  The reason why Gobert wins DPOY... is because his defense changes the game.   Similar to Deke, he has the ability to stop everything inside when he drops down inside.  If your team is not an outside shooting team or doesn't have a way to move him out of the inside, you will get crushed... unless you have Splash brothers.  

You don't get that kind of impact from Bam.  Sure... he defends and can stop guys.  He can disrupt offenses when he's on the ball side.  But he's just a patchwork kind of defender.   He makes up for the weakness in his team's defense.  So they switch. 

Here it is...

Points allowed...

Utah 3rd.

Miami 5th.

Opp FG%

Utah 2nd

Miami 7th

Assists Allowed

Utah 1st

Miami  23rd

Rebs Allowed

Utah 7th

Miami 10th. 

Defensive Rtg

Utah 4th

Miami 8th

 

If Bam is all that... Where is the impact?

 

 

[RandomFan]

56 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You can play awesome defense.. Great Defense.. but if you're not able to score, you can still lose more than you win.  I'm a guy that like positional defenders.  I like guys who can defend more than their position.   However, most of the time those guys are used to patch a defense and are not often game changing defenders.  The reason why Gobert wins DPOY... is because his defense changes the game.   Similar to Deke, he has the ability to stop everything inside when he drops down inside.  If your team is not an outside shooting team or doesn't have a way to move him out of the inside, you will get crushed... unless you have Splash brothers.  

You don't get that kind of impact from Bam.  Sure... he defends and can stop guys.  He can disrupt offenses when he's on the ball side.  But he's just a patchwork kind of defender.   He makes up for the weakness in his team's defense.  So they switch. 

Here it is...

Points allowed...

Utah 3rd.

Miami 5th.

Opp FG%

Utah 2nd

Miami 7th

Assists Allowed

Utah 1st

Miami  23rd

Rebs Allowed

Utah 7th

Miami 10th. 

Defensive Rtg

Utah 4th

Miami 8th

 

If Bam is all that... Where is the impact?

 

 

LOLOLOL!!! See, this is what I'm talking about. People don't know what they don't know. If you think Gobert is some great defensive juggernaut that Bam can't rival, you simply don't know what you are talking about man. The reason Gobert wins DPOY awards is because those are regular season awards voted on before the playoffs. The playoffs are a whole different defensive animal. 

You in here talking about regular season stats? Now go look at playoff stats for Utah. Go look at all the articles after the playoffs this year, and every other recent year, and tell me again how Gobert is a great defender. Good luck buddy. 

--The Jazz gave up an average of 125 points per game in those losses, well off the 107.2 they allowed per game en route to a 52-20 regular-season record.

Their defensive rating from the regular season (107.5) was second only to the Los Angeles Lakers' rating of 106.8.

At the anchor of their defense is center Rudy Gobert, the NBA's Defensive Player of the Year in 2018, 2019 and 2021. However, Gobert didn't exactly hold up to that standard against the Clippers.

Gobert, a rim-protector and force in the paint by trade, was nullified by Clippers head coach Tyronn Lue's decision to go with a small-ball lineup.

Ivica Zubac, LA's traditional center, started just once ⁠— Game 2's 117-111 loss for the Clippers ⁠— in the series.

Zubac averaged just 13.2 minutes per game against the Jazz after averaging 22.3 minutes per game in the regular season.

Instead, Lue relied on a starting lineup in which his three tallest players ⁠— George, Marcus Morris Sr. and Nicolas Batum ⁠— all checked in at 6-foot-8.

As Wright pointed out Monday, this kind of playoff performance from Gobert has become more of the norm than the exception.

"If your Defensive Player of the Year gets targeted every year in the playoffs on defense, maybe, just maybe, your advanced analytics that say he's the greatest defender in league history should be thrown in the trash," Wright said after giving a breakdown of Gobert's recent playoff exploits.

The Jazz and Gobert seem to have things figured out when it comes to the regular season, but the postseason has presented a different animal.

In Gobert's defense, some other highly acclaimed big men have had their own troubles against speedy guards in these playoffs, including Joel Embiid with Trae Young and Nikola Jokić with Chris Paul.

The difference with Embiid and Jokić, though, is that they deliver on the offensive end in a big way.

For Gobert, he'll likely need to further refine his offensive game, or he and Jazz head coach Quin Snyder must figure out a way for Gobert to not be neutralized defensively when teams go small.

 

-- We’ve all heard the adage of playoff basketball being something of an entirely different sport than regular season basketball. Teams are more adept to adjust against a side they know they will lock in on for two weeks, rather than a random Wednesday night game.

The game slows down, and half-court offence becomes increasingly prevalent over scoring in transition.

Game to game adjustments become a necessity, rather than coasting along for a month of regular season ball. There is a litany of examples where players who are better suited to 82 games instead of 16 high intensity games, and vice-versa. That doesn’t mean they are bad players. Far from it. What it does mean however, is that come playoff time, their deficiencies become glaringly pronounced and their shortcomings rear its ugly head.

Gobert had been a defensive monster in the regular season. The best rim protector in the league, the Frenchman anchored the Jazz to the third best defensive rating in the regular season (107.5) and the highest net rating (9.0). His impact was so overwhelming that media members were including the Stifel Tower in MVP discussions and had the Utah Jazz potentially making the finals.

Everything was aligned for the franchise to win its first ever NBA championship.

That was until Rudy Gobert got exposed.

The second round series vs the Los Angeles Clippers was a striking example of why playoff basketball is completely different from regular season basketball. It is not a as black and white to say that Rudy Gobert is a complete non-factor in the playoffs. He still holds significant value for Utah. In the game 2 win for the Jazz their defensive rating with Rudy Gobert on the floor was 97.3, off the floor it was 169.6.

It is what happened since going up 2-0 where Gobert and Utah weltered. The Clippers took the next two games to even up the series. With the news that Kawhi Leonard was battling with a knee injury and will miss the remainder of the series, the Jazz remained favourites to advance.

Per Justin Russo of the Clip & Roll podcast, the Clippers had a 125.0 offensive rating with Rudy Gobert on the floor in game 5. They shot 63.6% inside the paint with Gobert in the game and 38.2% on three-pointers.

Shooting well above 50% on Gobert in the paint is just inexcusable for the 3-time defensive player of the year. Game 6 was Rudy Gobert’s red wedding. He was hunted consistently by the Clippers small-ball line up that included Pat Beverley (of all people) knocking down shots from behind the arc.

Not only was Gobert a -22 in game 6, the Clippers made 79% of their shots when Rudy was the closest/primary defender. For an All-NBA player to be targeted like that much pose serious questions to Utah’s front office about the effectiveness of Gobert in the playoffs.

 

-- The worst part in all of this for the Jazz was Gobert was a defensive liability vs. the LA Clippers.

While Utah had to battle the Clippers without point guard Mike Conley Jr. for most of the series, it is hard to overlook the net-negative Gobert was on the floor in the final four games of the best-of-seven. Gobert had a -16 plus/minus in Game 3’s 26-point road loss at Staples Center. While he was a net-negative in Games 4 and 5, his -24 plus/minus in Game 6’s home blowout was rancid.

Though he had a double-double in three of the Jazz’s four straight playoff losses, Gobert never had more than 10 rebounds in any of those games and only registered two blocks. While he forced five steals in those losing efforts, Gobert was often in foul trouble. He had at least four fouls in the Jazz’s three most recent losses. The Clippers scored at least 118 points in all three victories.

As far as building a team around Gobert, the atrocious Clippers series loss was damning. Once again, the best defensive player in the NBA let down his team defensively when it mattered.

________________________________________________________________

 

This is what I mean about traditional drop centers are vulnerable to being schemed out of their impact. A ball switching center helps negate that, which Bam does. You like centers that are good positional defenders, cool. I'm just curious how you think that doesn't apply to Adebayo. He's a hell of a positional defender, IN ADDITION to being the most mobile and athletic center in the game that allows him to play on the perimeter on D. That you seem to think Bam isn't a defensive anchor for Miami and is only a patchwork defender is just straight up ridiculous. I'd argue he's a more impactful playoff defender than Gobert, which is when it actually matters.  

Oh, and since you mentioned offense, I guess you forgot about Bam with 32 points, 14 rebounds, 5 assists, 1 steal, on 11-15 shooting in ECF Game 6 to send the Miami Heat to the NBA Finals in 2020? 

But thank you for posting this, because now I understand why you have such a low opinion of Bam. You're still viewing the NBA through the lens of 1995. 

Edited August 28, 2021 by RandomFan

[sillent]

12 hours ago, capstone21 said:

Smith????  

He does have the talent but unfortunately he may not be nba material. Their are alot of talented guys that just don't pan out in the nba for whatever reason.

(Steve Francis) is the best example I can think of in that regard. 

I'm with you and others though when I saw Smith I was like who??? 

[sillent]

13 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Dennis Smith??? He's just about out of the league.

JC would be in the top 5:

Tatum, Donovan Mitchell, JC, Fox, Adebayo, Ball, OG

I'm with you all the way on this one. Bam might have more recognition because who pays attention to the Hawks until last yrs post season.

JC has owned Bam almost every match up. Bam might've gotten one game. I wouldn't put the player getting owned over the player owning.

Honestly I don't see that changing since JC has added defense as well.

[RandomFan]

The "great" Gobert. 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, RandomFan said:

LOLOLOL!!! See, this is what I'm talking about. People don't know what they don't know. If you think Gobert is some great defensive juggernaut that Bam can't rival, you simply don't know what you are talking about man. The reason Gobert wins DPOY awards is because those are regular season awards voted on before the playoffs. The playoffs are a whole different defensive animal. 

 

 

I never said that Gobert was a better defender.  I think you hear what you want to hear.  I said that his defense makes a bigger impact.  You speak about the inadequecy of drop down centers against certain schemes.  Cool.. but you use Zubic and other poor moving centers as examples?  Gobert moves pretty well and is one of the best rim protectors in the last few decades.   His rim protecting causes problems for offenses.

Whereas Bam is a great on ball defender.  Like I said, that's a patchwork for defense.  He only stops one player at a time.  So you put Bam on the best offensive player and hopes that he can switch as fast as the ball can move.  That is not as effective as a guy who stops everything that comes to the rim. 

That's why Utah's defense is higher rated than Miami's.  Whereas Bam is a great defender on ball.. he only stops one maybe two guys at a time.   Teams have to develop ways of trying to pull Gobert out of the middle.   He kills opponents offensive spacing.   Because he takes up some much real estate... and even if he misreads a play like a PNR.. His 7'9" wingspan allows him to recover.   Again.. .He's a load in the middle. 

One on one... Bam... Draymond and even Ben Simmons are great... but the rim protecting space eating Gobert is just more impactful on defense. 

[RandomFan]

Did...umm...are you...have you hit your head on something today bro? Is this opposites day?

You know, nevermind. I had a whole lengthy response typed up but after realizing after the articles and stats I posted clearly refuting your claims didn't stop you from repeating the same wrong things that you said the first time, what's the point? That you think a player limited to a drop scheme is more impactful or better than a center that can do that AND ALSO be the best ball switching center in the league which negates opponents ability to neutralize your effectiveness on the floor says all I need to know. 

I'll leave you with one thought since you didn't seem to get it the first several times, the Clippers KILLED Gobert in the paint, not just on the perimeter. But carry on with your busted opinion that Gobert shuts down the paint when it matters, ALL evidence to the contrary.

[niremetal]

So looking at this in a "best player available" way rather than looking back at what teams' actual draft positions and needs were, I end up with a list eerily similar to @RandomFan (aside from the #1 spot, at least). I'll break them down into tiers.

Franchise Player

1. Tatum. He's proven he can take over games in a way no one else in this draft can. He's the only one I can seriously see as the best player on a championship team. End of story for me.

Solid All-Stars

2. Bam. After Tatum, I don't see anyone else I'd build a team around, but Bam is the one who comes closest due to his versatility, especially on defense. I'm with @RandomFan that Bam's ability to switch 1-5 and be above average at each spot is just worth its weight in gold...platinum...diamonds...lithium...whatever. (Also agree with him that the days are over that even elite rim-protecting help defenders make as big a difference as elite switchable on-ball defenders, at least in the playoffs.) Also, it's rare to see a player whose would improve literally all 30 teams in the league, even if he can't be the lead dog on any of them.

3. Mitchell. His stats speaks for themselves, but I can't rank him higher because, well, he's a 6'1 combo guard and he's not on the plane of a Steph / Dame / Iverson (and he's actually even less of a distributor than any of those guys are/were).

Borderline All-Stars / High-Impact Players

4. Fox

5. JC

I think both of these guys are going to kind of plateau at their current level for the duration of their second contracts. Fox edges out JC because of the remaining upside for Fox if he ever gets a reliable deep ball. I don't think he ever well, though, so it's a close call.

Solid players and/or guys with the best remaining upside

6. Anunoby

7. Ball

8. Allen

9. Markkanen

10. Fultz

Outside the top 5, Anunoby is the one I think has the best chance (albeit a slim one) of jumping into the second tier, assuming he can stay healthy and continue his impressive strides over the last two seasons. Allen and Markkanen have the safest floors. Ball and Fultz remain intriguing due to their raw talent, but it's looking doubtful that they'll ever put it all together.

Miscellany

I'm not high on Dillon Brooks. I admit I have only seen his appearances against the Hawks, but I just was not impressed. He can score and get in your grill defensively (which is not the same as being a good defender...see below), but that's it. Here's the first thing that caught my eye about him--in 2019-20, he became the first perimeter player in 45 years to lead the league in personal fouls. And then, last year, he did it again. People talk about him as a great defender because he's so physical, but when you foul that much, you negate the benefits you get from it (often in ways that don't show up in any individual statistics, because other teams get in the penalty earlier, etc). It's doubly harmful for a wing because the guys they are guarding tend to shoot very well from the line. So yeah...call me McKayla, because I'm not impressed.

I think Derrick White, Kuzma, Monte Morris, and Kennard are the best of the rest.

Edited August 28, 2021 by niremetal

[niremetal]

10 minutes ago, niremetal said:

So looking at this in a "best player available" way rather than looking back at what teams' actual draft positions and needs were, I end up with a list eerily similar to @RandomFan (aside from the #1 spot, at least). I'll break them down into tiers.

Franchise Player

1. Tatum. He's proven he can take over games in a way no one else in this draft can. He's the only one I can seriously see as the best player on a championship team. End of story for me.

Solid All-Stars

2. Bam. After Tatum, I don't see anyone else I'd build a team around, but Bam is the one who comes closest due to his versatility, especially on defense. I'm with @RandomFan that Bam's ability to switch 1-5 and be above average at each spot is just worth its weight in gold...platinum...diamonds...lithium...whatever. (Also agree with him that the days are over that even elite rim-protecting help defenders make as big a difference as elite switchable on-ball defenders, at least in the playoffs.) Also, it's rare to see a player whose would improve literally all 30 teams in the league, even if he can't be the lead dog on any of them.

3. Mitchell. His stats speaks for themselves, but I can't rank him higher because, well, he's a 6'1 combo guard and he's not on the plane of a Steph / Dame / Iverson (and he's actually even less of a distributor than any of those guys are/were).

Borderline All-Stars / High-Impact Players

4. Fox

5. JC

I think both of these guys are going to kind of plateau at their current level for the duration of their second contracts. Fox edges out JC because of the remaining upside for Fox if he ever gets a reliable deep ball. I don't think he ever well, though, so it's a close call.

Solid players and/or guys with the best remaining upside

6. Anunoby

7. Ball

8. Allen

9. Markkanen

10. Fultz

Outside the top 5, Anunoby is the one I think has the best chance (albeit a slim one) of jumping into the second tier, assuming he can stay healthy and continue his impressive strides over the last two seasons. Allen and Markkanen have the safest floors. Ball and Fultz remain intriguing due to their raw talent, but it's looking doubtful that they'll ever put it all together.

Miscellany

I'm not high on Dillon Brooks. I admit I have only seen his appearances against the Hawks, but I just was not impressed. He can score and get in your grill defensively (which is not the same as being a good defender...see below), but that's it. Here's the first thing that caught my eye about him--in 2019-20, he became the first perimeter player in 45 years to lead the league in personal fouls. And then, last year, he did it again. People talk about him as a great defender because he's so physical, but when you foul that much, you negate the benefits you get from it (often in ways that don't show up in any individual statistics, because other teams get in the penalty earlier, etc). It's doubly harmful for a wing because the guys they are guarding tend to shoot very well from the line. So yeah...call me McKayla, because I'm not impressed.

I think Derrick White, Kuzma, Monte Morris, and Kennard are the best of the rest.

Btw, here's what my top 10 looks like in terms of how much guys improved/regressed from their actual draft position. Unsurprisingly, Ujiri, Schlenk, Riley, and Marks are the ones who made out.

1. Tatum (+2)

2. Bam (+12)

3. Mitchell (+10)

4. Fox (+1)

5. JC (+14)

6. Anunoby (+17)

7.  Ball (-5)

8. Allen (+14)

9. Markkanen (-2)

10. Fultz (-9)

[TheNorthCydeRises]

8 hours ago, RandomFan said:

Did...umm...are you...have you hit your head on something today bro? Is this opposites day?

You know, nevermind. I had a whole lengthy response typed up but after realizing after the articles and stats I posted clearly refuting your claims didn't stop you from repeating the same wrong things that you said the first time, what's the point? That you think a player limited to a drop scheme is more impactful or better than a center that can do that AND ALSO be the best ball switching center in the league which negates opponents ability to neutralize your effectiveness on the floor says all I need to know. 

I'll leave you with one thought since you didn't seem to get it the first several times, the Clippers KILLED Gobert in the paint, not just on the perimeter. But carry on with your busted opinion that Gobert shuts down the paint when it matters, ALL evidence to the contrary.

What happened to Rudy Gobert, is the same thing that happened to Brook Lopez in Game 1.  Trae completely destroyed their drop coverage.

The TNT crew talked about it after Collins' interview.

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And this is what happened to Gobert in that infamous Game 5.

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And this is Bam last season.

 

 

[RedDawg#8]

20 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

What happened to Rudy Gobert, is the same thing that happened to Brook Lopez in Game 1.  Trae completely destroyed their drop coverage.

The TNT crew talked about it after Collins' interview.

 

 

Damn I miss the playoffs. That run was something special. 

"A-awww!"  

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Also, Lonzo Ball was hurt this season with San Van Gundy taking the ball out of his hands, and putting in Zion's.  Lonzo ended up being more of a combo guard than the point guard.  With Lavine and Vucevic, don't be surprised if Lonzo averages 8+ assists this season.

Lonzo's long range shooting problems are gone,   He's been a 37%+ 3 point shooter since leaving the Lakers.  If he ever decides to attack the rim and start drawing fouls, he could easily be a candidate for MIP.  Don't be shocked if he turns the corner and starts to approach the 18 - 20 ppg game mark, while also dishing out 8 assists.

[RedDawg#8]

20 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And this is what happened to Gobert in that infamous Game 5.

 

 

Meanwhile half this board thinks you have to have a true seven footer in the game to compete with the "elite" bigs.

Our small lineup is even better shooting from the outside than the Clippers. But everyone is afraid to go small.

[Diesel]

9 hours ago, RandomFan said:

Did...umm...are you...have you hit your head on something today bro? Is this opposites day?

You know, nevermind. I had a whole lengthy response typed up but after realizing after the articles and stats I posted clearly refuting your claims didn't stop you from repeating the same wrong things that you said the first time, what's the point? That you think a player limited to a drop scheme is more impactful or better than a center that can do that AND ALSO be the best ball switching center in the league which negates opponents ability to neutralize your effectiveness on the floor says all I need to know. 

I'll leave you with one thought since you didn't seem to get it the first several times, the Clippers KILLED Gobert in the paint, not just on the perimeter. But carry on with your busted opinion that Gobert shuts down the paint when it matters, ALL evidence to the contrary.

There's two of us not reading... Before you started with your long diatribe... This is what I said:

Quote

The reason why Gobert wins DPOY... is because his defense changes the game.   Similar to Deke, he has the ability to stop everything inside when he drops down inside.  If your team is not an outside shooting team or doesn't have a way to move him out of the inside, you will get crushed... unless you have Splash brothers.  

How did the Clipps expose Gobert???

Mann got in the game and hit 7 of 10 three pointers...  The rest of the playoffs, the Clipps took their Center out, replaced him with a Guard and put everybody on the perimeter...

HELLO??

If you have to change your whole gameplan.. that means that Gobert's defense had an impact.

What team ever had to change what they would normally do to play Bam??

If you got 5 guys standing on the perimeter... then of course having Gobert is not going to be effective.   And yes, strategy dictates that if you can effectively hit those outside shots, he will be forced out of the center and you can drive by him...   But again.. .Not every team can hit those outside shots. 

The lesson here is not that Gobert is ineffective.  The lesson is that teams that Catch Utah with an injured Conley and an injured Mitchell can  take advantage of Utah if they have 5 guys that can hit corner threes at a high clip.   But dare I ask...

Wouldn't that work against any team?

Why do you think the Warriors had that period of dominance?  Defenses couldn't sit back.  Steph hitting shots from midcourt if left alone.   Klay hitting every corner three that He was given.  Even Draymond had a good year shooting.   They made having a Center a worthless option.   You needed 5 guys who could defend and most teams didn't have 5 good on ball defenders.   That means that if a team showed up with Dikembe in his prime... they would still get washed because the game is no longer about scoring on the inside.   3 pts always means more than 2!!!  But does that mean that DEKE is not a good defender?....  GTFOH with that lame argument. 

 

 

 

 

 

[RandomFan]

13 hours ago, Diesel said:

How did the Clipps expose Gobert???

Mann got in the game and hit 7 of 10 three pointers...  The rest of the playoffs, the Clipps took their Center out, replaced him with a Guard and put everybody on the perimeter...

HELLO??

If you have to change your whole gameplan.. that means that Gobert's defense had an impact.

What team ever had to change what they would normally do to play Bam??

Counterpoint, if you can be game planned out of being effective then just how impactful are you, really? Now let me ask you a question: what CAN a team change to take advantage of a player like Bam? The answer is nothing, and THAT is the entire point I've been making and the reason for his greater value than you seem to recognize. It's not that a team wouldn't want to scheme up a gameplan to reduce the effectiveness of Bam, but don't. It's that they can't, because he's scheme flexible with makes him immune. 

Quote

If you got 5 guys standing on the perimeter... then of course having Gobert is not going to be effective.   And yes, strategy dictates that if you can effectively hit those outside shots, he will be forced out of the center and you can drive by him...   But again.. .Not every team can hit those outside shots. 

Any team with actual title aspirations will be able to expose Gobert in drop coverage. Let's not act like it's a rarity; it's happened to them every year they have been in the playoffs with him. 

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The lesson here is not that Gobert is ineffective.  The lesson is that teams that Catch Utah with an injured Conley and an injured Mitchell can  take advantage of Utah if they have 5 guys that can hit corner threes at a high clip.   But dare I ask...

Wouldn't that work against any team?

Exactly. There is a reason the Rockets experimented with going small ball without a center, the sole reason we even got our hands on Capela in the first place. BTW, do you remember how many people we had on this site alone wanting to put Capela on a train out of town after this years playoffs?

CC is a drop center, he got somewhat taken advantage of in a similar fashion to what happened to Gobert. Although not nearly as badly because the Bucks didn't go small ball on us to force the issue. Meaning us missing our injured perimeter defenders exacerbated our situation. But yes drop scheme centers, which is nearly every center in the NBA, are vulnerable to small ball or 5-out basketball negating their impact on defense. 

The teams with the better offensive centers can get away with mostly avoiding having opponents go small ball on them because otherwise those centers punish them on the other end. Embiid, Jokic, Towns, Vuc, etc.. Gobert is cleary not enough of an offensive threat that can force teams to leave another center on the floor to defend him. There is a reason Utah has been, and will continue to be, a team that wins a lot of games in the regular season but takes early exits in the playoffs.

You can't pay a 1-dimensional rim protector a max contract and still afford to put a good enough team on the court to win in the playoffs anymore, no matter how great of a rim protector he is. It's simply money wasted with the amount of teams that can and will exploit the situation. It's why a player like Gobert at $40m per year is a recipe for disaster, but someone like Capela at $17m still provides excellent value.  

So if you don't have an effective offensive center, what are teams supposed to do to keep opponents from exploiting them in the playoffs with small ball? If only there was a center archetype that could negate opponents ability to punish drop coverage with small ball without having to be an elite offensive threat. How valuable would that be? Worth its weight in gold. And that is why Okongwu is our center of the future, no matter how much pushback we get from the crowd that keeps clamoring that we need a legit 7-foot rim protector.   

13 hours ago, Diesel said:

Why do you think the Warriors had that period of dominance?  Defenses couldn't sit back.  Steph hitting shots from midcourt if left alone.   Klay hitting every corner three that He was given.  Even Draymond had a good year shooting.   They made having a Center a worthless option.   You needed 5 guys who could defend and most teams didn't have 5 good on ball defenders.   That means that if a team showed up with Dikembe in his prime... they would still get washed because the game is no longer about scoring on the inside.   3 pts always means more than 2!!!  But does that mean that DEKE is not a good defender?....  GTFOH with that lame argument. 

It's funny you bring up the Warriors; the team that has most successfully deployed a small ball, switching center more than any other team: Draymond. You even make my case for me in favor of having a ball switching center. But a correction, small ball or 5 out doesn't mean the game is no longer about scoring on the inside. Quite the opposite since the perimeter threats help free up more driving lanes to the rim by pulling the rim protector away. 

So yeah, I hate to break it to you but if Deke showed up in his prime then he would most likely be about as useless as Gobert is in the playoffs. Although Deke had a bit better of an offensive game with the hook shot, so it might not be quite as bad. But defensively, yes, he would get taken advantage of in a bad way. 

But does that make him a bad or good defender? That's up for interpretation. But how can you be deemed a good defender if what you do well can be exploited to make you basically useless in a situation? I guess one could still be called a good individual defender, or a good situational defender in the right situation. But the more situations you can be considered a good defender in, and consequently reduce the number of situations you can be exploited in, then logically it follows the better defender you are. 

That's why even though Gobert is a better rim protector, Bam is the better and more valuable defender. And it's why Okongwu will eventually be better than CC for us. It's also why people that don't understand all of this continue to undervalue Bam currently. 

Edited August 29, 2021 by RandomFan

[Diesel]

21 hours ago, RandomFan said:

 

But does that make him a bad or good defender? That's up for interpretation. But how can you be deemed a good defender if what you do well can be exploited to make you basically useless in a situation? I guess one could still be called a good individual defender, or a good situational defender in the right situation. But the more situations you can be considered a good defender in, and consequently reduce the number of situations you can be exploited in, then logically it follows the better defender you are. 

That's why even though Gobert is a better rim protector, Bam is the better and more valuable defender. And it's why Okongwu will eventually be better than CC for us. It's also why people that don't understand all of this continue to undervalue Bam currently. 

Uhm.... Every defender and defensive scheme can be exploited.  Small ball is not new... The Suns were doing it with KJ and Co.  The Cavs were doing it with the three bombaderes.  And just like Gobert... there were teams that figured out how to destroy it...  Flood the middle with bigs and score efficiently. 

What you keep failing to understand is that not every team has the personnel to play small ball effectively.. so when you have teams that are limited in that way.. Gobert drops down and he becomes a game changer.  That's what makes him a good defender... that's what made him DPOY.  You're looking hard at the exception and ignoring the rule. 

[RandomFan]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

What you keep failing to understand is that not every team has the personnel to play small ball effectively.. so when you have teams that are limited in that way.. Gobert drops down and he becomes a game changer.  That's what makes him a good defender... that's what made him DPOY.  You're looking hard at the exception and ignoring the rule. 

When you have teams that are limited in that way, they aren't real title contenders. As I stated before in this thread:

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Any team with actual title aspirations will be able to expose Gobert in drop coverage. Let's not act like it's a rarity; it's happened to them every year they have been in the playoffs with him. 

Not every team has to have the personnel to play small ball effectively. The point is that plenty enough do in the playoffs. Instead, what you are doing is underestimating the amount of those teams. It's also not as hard to do as you seem to think. Utah keeps getting bounced in the first or second round year after year, with Gobert playing like crap on defense when that happens. 

Utah's playoff results the last 5 years. 

Year	Record	Result
2021	52-20	Lost Western Conference Semifinals (Won 1 Round)
2020	44-28	Lost Western Conference First Round (Won 0 Rounds)
2019	50-32	Lost Western Conference First Round (Won 0 Rounds)
2018	48-34	Lost Western Conference Semifinals (Won 1 Round)
2017	51-31	Lost Western Conference Semifinals (Won 1 Round)

 

Exception to the rule? That's a real nice exception to the rule ya got there, it'd be a shame if something happened to it.

 

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Uhm.... Every defender and defensive scheme can be exploited.

Really? Who knew. Besides everyone already knowing this is possible to a limited degree, and you trying to move the goal posts on your argument, let's actually address this for a moment. We all know what is being talked about with our Bam/Gobert comparison is exploiting a player to the point of being a net negative on the floor and making them borderline unplayable, neutering what they are supposed to be great at, and not just exploiting them for a few plays with some cleverly designed sets or actions, nor someone defending a star player and them still getting their stats. For example, nobody is going to consistently stop an Embiid or a Jordan or a Kobe. 

But great defenders and great team defenses can slow those players down, make them work harder for it and help hold the rest of the team in check. They can be at least a speed bump. What we are talking about is being so exploitable that a team can keep a defender from even being a speed bump, such as what teams have consistently been able to do to Gobert. So there is a very wide gulf between what is happening with the Gobert situation and your above quote which only serves as an empty platitude in a failed attempt to save your bacon. As Deke would say, "not today!"  

BTW, you never answered my question: what can a team change to take advantage of Bam. I'll clarify the question to make it easier to understand the parameters: what can be done schematically to exploit Bam on defense to render him similarly as useless as what keeps happening to Gobert in the playoffs?

I would say I will patiently await an adequate answer to that question, but we know there will be no answer forthcoming since there isn't one. At least not in this era with the rules as they currently exist.