Official Game Thread: Half-Baked-Hawks at Several-Sixers

[terrell]

1 hour ago, aali34 said:

This season he is. Field goal percentage and 3 point percentage are way up and turnovers down.

Right now the issue shouldn't be whether Trae and Cam can coexist. It should be having Lou, Gallo, and Delon step back and let Cam lead the second unit. Once he gets consistent at that, let him run with the starters.

Keep Lou away from Cam...

Edited December 24, 2021 by terrell

[Spud2nique]

19 hours ago, kg01 said:

@Spud2nique warned us about OO years ago.  Eons ago, maybe.  Who knew he was Jerry Krause reincarnated?

That kid is good and he DGAF.

My boy is growing.. right before my very eyes.. GTSOT (Get that $hiot outta there) BIID! 

 

    

[Hawkmoor]

9 minutes ago, terrell said:

Maybe this is why Nate likes Cam in the 2nd unit....But then he proceeds to play Cam with Lou and Gallo... smdh

You are correct.  Its, and I know this is polarizing, as if Nat is trying to find a way to include Cam without stepping on Trae's toes.  There is no way around this, the offense has to change IF the Hawks want a another playmaker playing WITH Trae.  Playing Reddish with Lou isn't gonna cut it especially.  I like the lineup they had against the 76ers.

Edited December 24, 2021 by Hawkmoor

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Hawkmoor said:

I guarantee you there will be no Hawks sneaking up on other teams in the playoffs this season like last season.  They gonna trap Young like crazy or put height on him and force the ball out of his hands.  Its exactly what the Nets did the last time they played:

 

That's a good plan when Trae is the only player that can play on ball... like when we played against Brooklyn.  But what happens when other guys can bring the ball up and get us into our sets.  You think KD is going to chase Trae all around the half court?  The trapping works when the trapped player has nobody who he can get the ball to that can move pass the trap.  But when Bogi is back, and breaking the trap like he did last night?

[Spud2nique]

10 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

My boy is growing.. right before my very eyes.. GTSOT (Get that $hiot outta there) BIID! 

 

    

Annnnd he entered protocol! 

[JayBirdHawk]

5 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

Its, and I know this is polarizing, as if Nat is trying to find a way to include Cam without stepping on Trae's toes. 

Except Cam has not yet shown the consistency for it to be about 'stepping on ANYBODY'S toes'

I'm still hopeful he gets that level of consistency.

 

[Hawkmoor]

9 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Doesn't make sense to me.  Trae generates the most lobs in the league, has the best floater, and hits from deep. 

Cam shoots at a low percentage, doesn't generate assists, and is turnover prone.  Also, he hasn't been the #1 option on offense since high school.  There is no material reason to change the offense and run it through Cam.  When I say people have a completely unrealistic idea of what Cam is capable of this is pretty much what I'm talking about.  They tried getting Cam going in the pre-season and the results didn't suggest we should run our offense through him.  The only shots Cam is consistently hitting are set shots.  

I agree that he has been inconsistent in the past.  I agree there.  The point I made in the thread though is Cam has to be treated like a number 1 option IN MY OPINION,  playing with Trae.   There are two things going on here.  First, the Hawks NEED another playmaker playing with Young to get to CHAMPIONSHIP level.  Saying that doesn't make Trae a bad player. Its about the TEAM.  Second, IS CAM THAT PLAYMAKER?  Bogi ain't it.  Bogi was brought in to be a catch and shoot player, but Nat doesn't run a catch and shoot offense.  Nat NEEDS a playmaker like Cam. Paul George fit that bill for the Pacers under McMillan.  Can Cam approximate the stats that Paul George did at Indianapolis?  I believe he can.

[Hawkmoor]

9 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That's a good plan when Trae is the only player that can play on ball... like when we played against Brooklyn.  But what happens when other guys can bring the ball up and get us into our sets.  You think KD is going to chase Trae all around the half court?  The trapping works when the trapped player has nobody who he can get the ball to that can move pass the trap.  But when Bogi is back, and breaking the trap like he did last night?

You just made my point.

[Diesel]

15 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

I'm not talking about Cam bringing the ball down, if thats what you believe I meant.  I meant Cam facilitating after he comes off ball screens and pin downs.  I believe he can facilitate in that manner.

From my eyes, Cam seems too turnover prone to even do that.  He's a slashing finisher... I'm fine with that label.  If he can pick up some of those other things that you speak of... even better... but He's not the guy I'm throwing the ball to while another team is trapping. .. Not unless he's wide open for the three or has a slash to the goal.   The other thing about him being a slasher, he still has to become a better finisher.  He can slam on guys the way that Jordan Clarkson did last night.   BUT.. he doesn't do that.   He goes up softer.  At least, in his earlier years Jsmoove could do that.  I think it's because JSmoove had been a 1st option.   I don't think Cam ever was one. 

[Hawkmoor]

9 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Except Cam has not yet shown the consistency for it to be about 'stepping on ANYBODY'S toes'

I'm still hopeful he gets that level of consistency.

 

Trae had a fit and quit the very next game against Charlotte last season after his toes was stepped on in that players meeting.  Some of guys keep getting selective memories about the facts:

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/hawks-john-collins-criticized-the-way-trae-young-has-been-running-the-offense-in-atlanta-per-report/

"According to three sources who were either in the session or had knowledge of what was said, Collins raised several issues about the way these Hawks were functioning with Young at the helm.

Collins talked about the need to get into offensive sets more quickly and to limit all those early shot-clock attempts that leave his teammates on the outside looking in. He shared his desire to be more involved and expressed a desire for more ball involvement and flow on offense.

There was no back-and-forth between the two, but the pointed criticism caught the attention of the room. And Young, sources say, made it clear to others later that he strongly disagreed with Collins' assessment."

Edited December 24, 2021 by Hawkmoor

[Hawkmoor]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

From my eyes, Cam seems too turnover prone to even do that.  He's a slashing finisher... I'm fine with that label.  If he can pick up some of those other things that you speak of... even better... but He's not the guy I'm throwing the ball to while another team is trapping. .. Not unless he's wide open for the three or has a slash to the goal.   The other thing about him being a slasher, he still has to become a better finisher.  He can slam on guys the way that Jordan Clarkson did last night.   BUT.. he doesn't do that.   He goes up softer.  At least, in his earlier years Jsmoove could do that.  I think it's because JSmoove had been a 1st option.   I don't think Cam ever was one. 

You make good points.  Every point you made.  I'm not gonna argue those facts.  I just want Cam given the opportunity like the past two games, to see if he can be that same player consistently over the course, as he has been the past two games. 

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

You just made my point.

No.. Somebody said that Brooklyn and teams like them will trap us and will put a big on Trae they put up the picture of KD on Trae on their post (I think it was you). 

You forgot the facts of that game.   Bogi and Cam and Hunter were out.   We had  givemtheball back TLC handling the ball?  Did you forget the missed layup?  NJ was smart enough to know that Trae didn't have another competent ball handler to give the ball to in that instance.  However, Philly played some of the best trap defense on us in the playoffs.. did you forget?   They also tried to trap the ball out of Trae's hands... and they lost the series.   And get this.. they had much better defenders than anybody in the league.  They also tried playing Simmons on Trae... did you forget?  He was effective but he didn't stop what we were doing. 

 

 

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

You make good points.  Every point you made.  I'm not gonna argue those facts.  I just want Cam given the opportunity like the past two games, to see if he can be that same player consistently over the course, as he has been the past two games. 

Like I said, if he can gravitate towards those things that you spoke of... that will be great.  I hope that he does.  He's just not close to that yet.   Go back and check the footage, I believe I was one of the first on the Cam bandwagon.  I want him to reach his potential and go even farther than that.  However, I also like to look at guys in real time and in real time, he has some more things to do.  But I like where he's going. 

[Final_quest]

2 hours ago, marco102 said:

 

@Final_quest you are moving the goal post here. We said we should be patient to see how the wings develop before shipping them out. Even you are surprised by the incremental improvement Cam has made this season. The flashes he shows are all star level. It is all about if he can put it together consistently.

Cam improving doesn't change much for me.  I am surprised that his catch and shoot numbers have been reliably good, but keep in mind before this season he was shooting like 30% from three and under 40% overall for his career.  He has simply gone from bad to average. 
I'm not sure what all star level flashes means.  Almost every NBA rotation player shows flashes of all star level play.  D. Rose played kind of like an all star during the playoffs last year.  Bogi played like an all star for two straight months last year.  A 34 point game against replacement players is hard to evaluate.  I do give him credit.  He is playing better.
That being said I still believe he is flawed and will not become more than a complimentary piece for us.  The unrealistic take on Cam is where he is projected as a star, and guys would rather keep Cam than trade for Jaylen Brown.  I've heard a number of takes like that.  He is averaging 12 points, 1 assist, 2 rebounds.  He is shooting below 42% and 37% from 3.  How are those numbers that indicate anything close to an all star?  So far he has only been consistent on set shots.  Also, I see him as a good defender, but definitely not a lock down defender. 
I think we need better than Cam to get to contender status.  Him playing well for a couple games doesn't change that. Let's see him go on a run like Bogi did last year before he gets to untouchable status. 
Also, Merry Christmas!  

[marco102]

1 minute ago, Final_quest said:

Cam improving doesn't change much for me.  I am surprised that his catch and shoot numbers have been reliably good, but keep in mind before this season he was shooting like 30% from three and under 40% overall for his career.  He has simply gone from bad to average. 
I'm not sure what all star level flashes means.  Almost every NBA rotation player shows flashes of all star level play.  D. Rose played kind of like an all star during the playoffs last year.  Bogi played like an all star for two straight months last year.  A 34 point game against replacement players is hard to evaluate.  I do give him credit.  He is playing better.
That being said I still believe he is flawed and will not become more than a complimentary piece for us.  The unrealistic take on Cam is where he is projected as a star, and guys would rather keep Cam than trade for Jaylen Brown.  I've heard a number of takes like that.  He is averaging 12 points, 1 assist, 2 rebounds.  He is shooting below 42% and 37% from 3.  How are those numbers that indicate anything close to an all star?  So far he has only been consistent on set shots.  Also, I see him as a good defender, but definitely not a lock down defender. 
I think we need better than Cam to get to contender status.  Him playing well for a couple games doesn't change that. Let's see him go on a run like Bogi did last year before he gets to untouchable status. 
Also, Merry Christmas!  

Merry Christmas to you too.

Again, Cam is 22 years old having played 110 NBA games and barely played in college.  

Not everyone is Trae Young and can continually improve into their role.  I'm not sure what he will be, but I'm sure as hell not trying to ship him out before I have more data on what he can become. 

This season isn't Championship or bust. None of our players have reached their primes. 

[terrell]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

Annnnd he entered protocol! 

Smh..

Hopefully Cam can go. Not sure about Delon.(Just saw both are probable)

Delon/Bogi/Cam/Collins/Dieng

Mays/Hill/Lance/JJ/

 

 

Edited December 24, 2021 by terrell

[marco102]

A little OO defensive love.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

8 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

I've been critical of Cam's inconsistency in his short career, but I will say this:  I believe that Cam CAN be a number one option if TREATED as a number one option.  Not THE number one option, but a 1b to Trae's 1a.  Cam had to play second fiddle to Zion at Duke.  Now he is playing second, third fiddle to Trae Young.   Thats why his game is HESITANT.  His short basketball career past high school is him being a option instead of being the man.  He went off last night again against primarily the 76er starters. 

The problem is when Trae comes back, the offense is NOT gonna have the same flow as last night.  Trae gonna pound the ball.  The wings are gonna receive passes from Trae ( when he does pass the ball) out of rhythm.  I don't like the ball flowing primarily through Trae because you gonna get either a logo three, a tricky dribble from outside the elbow and try and blow pass the defender, or a lob.  Its not conducive to the wing players getting involved.

 

Once again . . if this was all true, the offense would (( pop )) when Trae is getting his rest in between quarters.

But what tends to happen, is that the offense DIES whenever he is out of the game.

You can't have it both ways in this conversation.  If Trae is one of the root problems with the offense ( which is currently #2 in the league by the way, despite the atrocious play by the bench ), why can't the offense function with Trae out the game, and other people getting their chance to get shots and move the ball? 

We've lost countless games this season because Nate goes with an all bench lineup, and because we can't execute going down the stretch outside of Trae scoring the ball.  So if this team is better off with Trae being less ball dominant, why aren't they showing this when he's not in the game?

Now I agree with Supes and others that when Lou and Gallo come back. maybe we need to go back to Cam being the #1 scoring option with the 2nd unit, instead of having him stand in a corner while Lemon Pepper looks for his own shot.  It would be easy to give the ball to Cam if he was also a decent playmaker who could get others easy looks. But right now in his career, he's a shoot first, shoot second guy.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

7 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

Well, duh.  If Trae IS YOUR ATTACK, of course the offense is gonna look like crap when he is not in there if you don't run anything else.  Guess what?  Trae didn't play last night, the Hawks changed their offense, and it worked.

 

Trae is your attack because the offense is most efficient with Trae being the attack guy.  This is why I have consistently said that a scoring, attacking Trae is much better for the fortunes of the Hawks, than a Trae who is deferring to the other guys.  The fact that the focus stays on Trae, enables the others around him to get wide open looks from 3, or lob dunks at the rim. 

The 2nd unit falters because their attack guy is Lou or Gallo, and Wright is a poor facilitator who can get guys easy shots. Also, those guys are almost solely dependent on jumpshots falling, in order to be an effective group.  The 2nd unit almost gets nothing at the rim or in the paint, and that's something that Trae EXCELS at doing for himself, and for our bigs. 

If people want Cam to be the attack guy on the 2nd unit, that's the most ideal situation for the Hawks, especially if he becomes a shot maker and secondary facilitator.  Cam can get any shot he wants ( good or bad ), and he can get to the rim. 

 

But how can you say that the offense worked, when they only shot 45% FG - 29% 3FG - and scored 98 points?  On most nights in the NBA, that kind of production gets you beat by 7 - 10 points.   Matter of fact, that's the first game this year that the Hawks have won, when scoring under 100 points.  We were 0 - 8 before that win vs Philly.

That was a great defensive win, not an offensive accomplishment.

[NBASupes]

4 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Trae is your attack because the offense is most efficient with Trae being the attack guy.  This is why I have consistently said that a scoring, attacking Trae is much better for the fortunes of the Hawks, than a Trae who is deferring to the other guys.  The fact that the focus stays on Trae, enables the others around him to get wide open looks from 3, or lob dunks at the rim. 

The 2nd unit falters because their attack guy is Lou or Gallo, and Wright is a poor facilitator who can get guys easy shots. Also, those guys are almost solely dependent on jumpshots falling, in order to be an effective group.  The 2nd unit almost gets nothing at the rim or in the paint, and that's something that Trae EXCELS at doing for himself, and for our bigs. 

If people want Cam to be the attack guy on the 2nd unit, that's the most ideal situation for the Hawks, especially if he becomes a shot maker and secondary facilitator.  Cam can get any shot he wants ( good or bad ), and he can get to the rim. 

 

But how can you say that the offense worked, when they only shot 45% FG - 29% 3FG - and scored 98 points?  On most nights in the NBA, that kind of production gets you beat by 7 - 10 points.   Matter of fact, that's the first game this year that the Hawks have won, when scoring under 100 points.  We were 0 - 8 before that win vs Philly.

That was a great defensive win, not an offensive accomplishment.

Trae and Ja Morant tend to have the same issue but Trae to a lesser degree. They are high efficiency floor generals. They sellout out for corner 3s for others, in the paint shots for themselves and others, and they are PnR maestros which is the most valuable trait there is for a player in the NBA offensively. For this, Trae and Ja are massive for offensive success but the issue is, wings tend to get limited next to Trae and Ja as they end up being spot up guys. 

Bigs tend to benefit the most from Trae and Ja. They get the bulk of touches and if they are best at movement, they tend to get a lot of high quality touches. This doesn't work for everyone. JJJ in Memphis is better without Ja as the touches he gets as a feature is better for his style of play than it is for the touches he gets with Ja. Whereas JC, due to being extremely movement based tends to get his best touches with Trae. 

The issue with Trae is, it's hard to have wings who need to create next to him. Can Kawhi work next to Trae. To a degree, sure because Kawhi is efficient no matter what at this stage with the ball but Kawhi slows down movement like Hunter and we will lose our kinetic energy due to his presence as we do when we start Hunter.

This is why I say, adding Beal or any guys including guys like DeRozan who some fans have suggested here is useless. There quality of touches will drop significantly and they will become frustrated with Trae. I am not even sure Klay who is a movement specialist would enjoy playing with Trae. So much of what he does is unorthodox. It doesn't make sense and you kinda don't know what's coming which is the magic of Trae but for wings, they kinda need to know what to do to know how to react. Bron ball for example is very predictable but it's so difficult for guards who like to get their own to shine in that system and unless Bron is willing to share with them, it becomes stand in the corner and watch Bron do Bron for many as they generally don't have the natural off ball feel or quip. Klay could shine well next to Bron in Bron ball as he is extremely orthodox but finding Klay Thompson is very very very hard. 

Part of the sale of Reddish is that he had some Klay and the closest to Klay but what we discovered is Cam has to be fully involved in the action or he mentally becomes disengaged which is not Klay. Klay is very engaged without the ball like Kyle Korver is.

Can Trae work with Cam or anyone that's a guard that needs 50-60 touches a game. I don't know and I haven't seen any reason to believe he can. He is really disengaged without the ball and a lot of his fight when he doesn't have the ball on offense is to get it back into his hands which is easy to do for others due to his level of success in doing things his own way. I do wonder if he can realize, letting Cam cook just opens up the offense as much and makes it easier for him long term. We all assume if we just got that player who is a star wing, he will just defer but it's never that easy as this isn't a video game and he has a style of play he plays best with. 

So the question is, can we get the best Trae with Reddish shining or any wing shining, at this moment, no. Like Ja, Trae has to figure this out. The great PGs like CP3, Nash, and Bibby did this effortlessly. Wings shined with these PGs. But guys like Ja, Luka, and Trae are still learning and many guys like Bron, it really never worked. Even in Bron years with Wade, it was mainly defensively and Kyrie hated playing with Bron and even though he was willing to defer, it was still Bron ball. 

Trae has to figure it out. He has to let the man get a rhythm, he tends to only defer when they got it going on and he tends to pull the rug on it even if they are hot if he thinks he found an exploit for himself against the defense and goodbye touches to the hot man.