My guy has talked around NBA circles of late

[thecampster]

I've taken a few days trying to unravel the chatter and a few conversations I've had.  Here's what's going on based on those conversations and my warlock crystal ball.

The first thing you have to unravel is what is Philly's preference. Philly wants to pair Harden with Embiid and shooters. They want to run an ISO kick offense where teams have to dedicate a double team to either Embiid or Harden depending on who has the ball and that will leave a shooter open. They see the failure of Simmons is in not being a viable shooter and that ruins their options on offense.

The Harden opting out and signing with Philly in the offseason chatter is just that, chatter. Its meant to hold Brooklyn's feet to the fire to trade Harden or lose him.  A Philly trade with Brooklyn would look something like this:  http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y2n7qm7d All of this has been an attempt by Philly to get Brooklyn to move Harden early, dangling Ben as his ball handling replacement. The onus being to not lose Harden for nothing and thereby not being to replace him with a salary (they are way over the cap).

Philly's talks with Atlanta, Sacramento and Minnesota were mostly opportunistic. The price was set very high so as to "not" get a deal done but to make it seem like there was significant buzz about Simmons to make Brooklyn question if they could lose Harden in the offseason for nothing. Although the 3 teams most prominently mentioned are possible landing places for Simmons, it would again require a dialed down Simmons for 2 players or a 3 team trade to facilitate and no one wants Harris at his salary and length regardless of picks. Philly has been caught with their hand in the cookie jar here of trying to keep these other deals as last resorts, saying the right stuff in the media about letting this go beyond the deadline. They now may be stuck with Simmons without him playing.

Harden is making $44 million this year. The only path to Philly for Harden is a trade unless Philly unloads all of Simmons, Harris and (see below) neither of those options may be an option now.

The league is now seriously looking in the background at starting a tampering investigation on Philly as they believe (without Brooklyn's permission) discussions as to what an opt out new salary for Harden would look like have taken place through back channels. As with BB and Milwaukee, Philly could lose any opportunity to acquire or trade for Harden as penalty and they may end up on the hook for Simmons. That will depend on what Brooklyn wants to do.

Morey has overplayed his hand and the market for Simmons is now tanking. Sacramento is not "out" as the media has reported. They are out at the current ask level. The price has to now come down significantly in order for them to re-enter.  

As I stated 2 weeks ago, the interested teams made their final offers on Simmons already. There hasn't been any fresh talks and almost all suitors have realized Morey is playing them as pawns (as does the league) in the media and have broken off any new discussions.

Edited January 30, 2022 by thecampster

[Peoriabird]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

The first thing you have to unravel is what is Philly's preference. Philly wants to pair Harden with Embiid and shooters. They want to run an ISO kick offense where teams have to dedicate a double team to either Embiid or Harden depending on who has the ball and that will leave a shooter open. They see the failure of Simmons is in not being a viable shooter and that ruins their options on offense.

So someone explain to me why this would not be a problem in Atlanta again...I'm having trouble comprehending Schlenk's interest in this non shooter when his team building concept is centered around shooting?

[NekiEcko]

5 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

So someone explain to me why this would not be a problem in Atlanta again...I'm having trouble comprehending Schlenk's interest in this non shooter when his team building concept is centered around shooting?

I think it's not about the shooting but a secondary playmaker.  We don't have a secondary playmaker on this team and even know that Trae can get his but if you pressure him and get the ball out of his hand, then who do we have.  Bogi, Huerter, Hunter is okay with it, but Simmons can bring that in spades, can be able to guard all spots on the court basically he can be like Green from GSW (but with a higher ceiling with higher cost).

But I think those deals was to throw off the league from that and I think they were never going to trade Simmons to anybody except Brooklyn.

[thecampster]

24 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

So someone explain to me why this would not be a problem in Atlanta again...I'm having trouble comprehending Schlenk's interest in this non shooter when his team building concept is centered around shooting?

Because Philly's offense will revolve around dump and kick, draw and kick, penetrate and kick.  Atlanta's offense is much more movement based with more screens, cuts and roles. This requires a plethora of finishers to go with 2 solid shooters, not 3.

[bleachkit]

 

[JTB]

1 minute ago, thecampster said:

Because Philly's offense will revolve around dump and kick, draw and kick, penetrate and kick.  Atlanta's offense is much more movement based with more screens, cuts and roles. This requires a plethora of finishers to go with 2 solid shooters, not 3.

This! I can’t find it but Someone did a really good breakdown of our offense and what the scheme is or should be and this is a very good brief description as well.

To me Schlenks motto of “dribble, shoot, pass” has been taken out of context and he’s long went away from that being pushed on the whole team once he brought capela in the picture.

It would be nearly impossible to recreate a Warriors like team here in Atlanta but you can have similar traits with certain players and build the same philosophy.

I think there’s many within the front office who WANT to get Trae in more catch and shoot opportunities and moving off ball more clearly but not to the level of curry in my opinion as far as that much constant movement because you just can’t ask Trae to be Curry and actually expect it. If it happens great but the idea is for Trae to cut his ball usage in half or drop it to like 65% not fully take it away by any means I’m sure.

 

With that said you have to have another playmaker on the team to fully run the scheme and put Trae as a off ball movement player to make him even more dangerous.

 

On the flip side Collins has been excellent at what he brings in the “dribble, pass, shoot” motto…along with great commitment on defense. It’s really tough to move a guy like Collins right now even if you think Simmons would be better long term with Trae.

[JTB]

6 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

 

I love the way JC has been playing and I’m not pushing a collins for Simmons trade like I once was but even the haters got to be truthful and recognize that Collins CANNOT do what Simmons does with the ball in his hands. Simmons at 6’10 is an incredible dribbler and passer.

….and before anyone says it I know Simmons can’t do what collins does in terms of shooting.

Defensively to me despite collins much improved defense….Simmons is still a lot better and more elite defensively. Neither has a problem finishing around the rim.

 

again I’m not saying trade collins for Simmons just speaking on the facts in terms of their skills. It is what it is.

[kg01]

6 minutes ago, JTB said:

I love the way JC has been playing and I’m not pushing a collins for Simmons trade like I once was but even the haters got to be truthful and recognize that Collins CANNOT do what Simmons does with the ball in his hands. Simmons at 6’10 is an incredible dribbler and passer.

….and before anyone says it I know Simmons can’t do what collins does in terms of shooting.

Defensively to me despite collins much improved defense….Simmons is still a lot better and more elite defensively. Neither has a problem finishing around the rim.

 

again I’m not saying trade collins for Simmons just speaking on the facts in terms of their skills. It is what it is.

The "shooting" thing is a problem but it's been overblown to the point of caricature at this point.

I now want us to stand pat, but Simmons wound be a clear upgrade for us.

[NekiEcko]

I totally agreed with you @JTB

Right now, I would dial it back on the Collins/Simmons trade talk but imagine if we did have a Simmons on this team.  Sure, it will be a costly price but what Simmons can do defensively and with him being a secondary ball handler, he can make the Hawks even more dangerous especially in the playoffs since teams is going to key on Trae for everything, having him is going to make defenses going insane.

Besides we have to consolidated talent anyway, but right now I am competent about this right now.

[bleachkit]

32 minutes ago, kg01 said:

The "shooting" thing is a problem but it's been overblown to the point of caricature at this point.

I now want us to stand pat, but Simmons wound be a clear upgrade for us.

Simmons averages 17 points a game with excellent efficiency. He's an outstanding finisher at the rim and an absolute beast in transition. 

[bird_dirt]

Why would Harden be so hot and heavy to join Joelllll and a box of scraps over trying to win a ring with KD & Kyrie?

Seems like the Nets have been better at getting better extra pieces to surround a big 3 than Philly ever could trying to surround a big 1 or 2.

I don't understand why he would think his chances are better in PA than NY. I'm just not seeing it.

"The Process"® is a made up marketing Ponzi scheme.

[sturt]

11 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Who are we moving or is losing their spot in the rotation to create space for a SF?

So, of Delon, LouWill, BogBog (for now, but maybe KVon), Gallo and Big2O...

Me, I do not have confidence that LouWill should be presumed a rotation constant game after game... I see him getting spot duty.

 

[sturt]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

video game Simmons wound be a clear upgrade for us

Fixed.

[kg01]

3 minutes ago, sturt said:

Fixed.

Trust me, I hear your point(s).

But it can't be denied that the guy is a DPOY candidate.  That, in and of itself, renders my comments salient.  Jmho

[hylndr11]

It's crazy how high bbiq Simmons seams to have without being able to shoot.  I'm starting to be 50 50 on this I was totally opposed but still, I can't imagine how this could work trade wise.

[sturt]

13 minutes ago, kg01 said:

the guy is a DPOY candidate

Yes, absolutely. On a video game.

Trust me, I get it that he's a big time talent, including a DPOY candidate... as long as he's on the floor.

Why wouldn't he be on the floor?

Why isn't he on the floor right now?

In real life there are legitimate questions that aren't legitimate questions on a video game. What's the reaction when similar head case problems have effect on this team's outcomes? Does he play less? Is he okay with that? Does he pout and refuse to play after all, now that he has some experience with that?

Ben Medusa Simmons.

The risks are too enormous. Always the chance it somehow turns out well, of course. But this is like a lot of things in life... whether we might get covid or not, whether the snow is bad enough to not drive for awhile until the salt trucks get around, whether to tell your boss off for his latest stupid decision since he didn't fire you last time you called out some stupid decision he made... hehe... a risk evaluation exercise for all of us amateur insurance underwriters.

 

[Sothron]

4 hours ago, thecampster said:

I've taken a few days trying to unravel the chatter and a few conversations I've had.  Here's what's going on based on those conversations and my warlock crystal ball.

The first thing you have to unravel is what is Philly's preference. Philly wants to pair Harden with Embiid and shooters. They want to run an ISO kick offense where teams have to dedicate a double team to either Embiid or Harden depending on who has the ball and that will leave a shooter open. They see the failure of Simmons is in not being a viable shooter and that ruins their options on offense.

The Harden opting out and signing with Philly in the offseason chatter is just that, chatter. Its meant to hold Brooklyn's feet to the fire to trade Harden or lose him.  A Philly trade with Brooklyn would look something like this:  http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y2n7qm7d All of this has been an attempt by Philly to get Brooklyn to move Harden early, dangling Ben as his ball handling replacement. The onus being to not lose Harden for nothing and thereby not being to replace him with a salary (they are way over the cap).

Philly's talks with Atlanta, Sacramento and Minnesota were mostly opportunistic. The price was set very high so as to "not" get a deal done but to make it seem like there was significant buzz about Simmons to make Brooklyn question if they could lose Harden in the offseason for nothing. Although the 3 teams most prominently mentioned are possible landing places for Simmons, it would again require a dialed down Simmons for 2 players or a 3 team trade to facilitate and no one wants Harris at his salary and length regardless of picks. Philly has been caught with their hand in the cookie jar here of trying to keep these other deals as last resorts, saying the right stuff in the media about letting this go beyond the deadline. They now may be stuck with Simmons without him playing.

Harden is making $44 million this year. The only path to Philly for Harden is a trade unless Philly unloads all of Simmons, Harris and (see below) neither of those options may be an option now.

The league is now seriously looking in the background at starting a tampering investigation on Philly as they believe (without Brooklyn's permission) discussions as to what an opt out new salary for Harden would look like have taken place through back channels. As with BB and Milwaukee, Philly could lose any opportunity to acquire or trade for Harden as penalty and they may end up on the hook for Simmons. That will depend on what Brooklyn wants to do.

Morey has overplayed his hand and the market for Simmons is now tanking. Sacramento is not "out" as the media has reported. They are out at the current ask level. The price has to now come down significantly in order for them to re-enter.  

As I stated 2 weeks ago, the interested teams made their final offers on Simmons already. There hasn't been any fresh talks and almost all suitors have realized Morey is playing them as pawns (as does the league) in the media and have broken off any new discussions.

So it isn't myself and my source that thinks that Philly/Harden have been in collusion. Interesting. 

[thecampster]

Media starting to talk about this now in a bid to help smooth the way for Harden to Philly.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/brooklyn-nets-super-team-teetering-154213367.html  Between Brooklyn, Philly and the NBA there is a lot of money behind this nonsense right now.

[NekiEcko]

28 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Media starting to talk about this now in a bid to help smooth the way for Harden to Philly.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/brooklyn-nets-super-team-teetering-154213367.html  Between Brooklyn, Philly and the NBA there is a lot of money behind this nonsense right now.

If I were Brooklyn, I wouldn't do it because they loss so many assets to get him and now he wants to go to another place. 

[Diesel]

The reason I mellowed on Simmons... aside from the uptick of our defense... is that I listened to Shaq and agreed. 

Shaq said superstars get criticized all the time from everywhere.   The key is that real superstars step up to silence the criticism.

I immediately thought about this guy...

 

And even though (aside from 2016 Klay) I believe that BS is the best match for Trae defensively... How can I put  a guy who gives up a whole season because somebody criticized him next to our leader who told 25k people in NY  and Millions around the world to shut the hell up...  Trae has been criticized his whole life and he has never quit.   We can't put Simmons next to him.