My guy has talked around NBA circles of late

[Spud2nique]

29 minutes ago, warcore said:

Please don't turn camp into a a$$hole. 

You’re 50 years too late!! I kid! I got jokes. #hereallweek #campis49yearsold 

[kg01]

37 minutes ago, warcore said:

Please don't turn camp into a a$$hole. 

[thecampster]

47 minutes ago, warcore said:

Please don't turn camp into a a$$hole. 

There are days I'd only need a nudge.

17 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

You’re 50 years too late!! I kid! I got jokes. #hereallweek #campis49yearsold 

Actually you were spot on the first time!

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, thecampster said:

There are days I'd only need a nudge.

Actually you were spot on the first time!

[thecampster]

6 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

As I've gone through life at 50, those "keeping homeowners from turning into their parents" commercials have started to become eerily accurate. I don't like it....not 1 bit!!!

[kg01]

10 minutes ago, thecampster said:

As I've gone through life at 50, those "keeping homeowners from turning into their parents" commercials have started to become eerily accurate. I don't like it....not 1 bit!!!

Embrace it.  I'm not 50 but I am all those commercials.

No cussin', no fussin' ....

[JayBirdHawk]

Ben Simmons still upset that Joel Embiid blamed him for last season's playoff loss

According to sources close to Simmons, he’s upset that Embiid seemed to blame him for last season’s playoff loss, when Simmons did not blame Embiid for Embiid’s poor showing in the playoffs against the Toronto Raptors in 2019. He’s frustrated that Rivers didn’t come to see him while he was training in Los Angeles last summer. Simmons doesn’t dispute that he didn’t reply when Rivers texted and called him several times over the summer asking to see him. But in hindsight, Simmons feels Rivers and the Sixers could’ve done more, like show up at a well-known gym in the San Fernando Valley where he was training.

 

– via Ramona Shelburne @ ESPN

He’s also skeptical, sources close to him say, of Sixers president of basketball operations Daryl Morey’s willingness to trade him because of his previous pursuit of Harden — who can become a free agent this summer. Simmons would be the best player the Sixers would send in any theoretical trade. And he’s upset that the organization is fining him so heavily after he raised mental health as an issue upon his return. Rich Paul, Simmons’ agent, had spent weeks in the fall trying to convince the three-time All-Star to fly back to Philadelphia as a show of good faith. Simmons did not want to go under any circumstances.

 

– via Ramona Shelburne @ ESPN

Ben Simmons has lost over $19 million in fines this season

Simmons has lost over $19 million in fines since the season began (each missed game costs him $360,000). He hasn’t cleared a paycheck since the $8.25 million (25% of his $33 million salary) that was due to him Oct. 1. Every two weeks the team sends a notice with an explanation of all the fines he has accumulated for failing to render services, instead of a $1.375 million paycheck. By the end of the season, if he does not play for the Sixers or any other team, Simmons could lose another $12 million. It is a staggering amount of money. Everyone involved assumes this issue will eventually be settled in arbitration. But those close to Simmons, who has earned upward of $60 million over his career, insist his decision to demand a trade and then not to play until he is traded has never been financially motivated. He wants a fresh start, away from a franchise he doesn’t feel comfortable playing for anymore.

 

– via Ramona Shelburne @ ESPN

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Ben Simmons still upset that Joel Embiid blamed him for last season's playoff loss

According to sources close to Simmons, he’s upset that Embiid seemed to blame him for last season’s playoff loss, when Simmons did not blame Embiid for Embiid’s poor showing in the playoffs against the Toronto Raptors in 2019. He’s frustrated that Rivers didn’t come to see him while he was training in Los Angeles last summer. Simmons doesn’t dispute that he didn’t reply when Rivers texted and called him several times over the summer asking to see him. But in hindsight, Simmons feels Rivers and the Sixers could’ve done more, like show up at a well-known gym in the San Fernando Valley where he was training.

 

– via Ramona Shelburne @ ESPN

He’s also skeptical, sources close to him say, of Sixers president of basketball operations Daryl Morey’s willingness to trade him because of his previous pursuit of Harden — who can become a free agent this summer. Simmons would be the best player the Sixers would send in any theoretical trade. And he’s upset that the organization is fining him so heavily after he raised mental health as an issue upon his return. Rich Paul, Simmons’ agent, had spent weeks in the fall trying to convince the three-time All-Star to fly back to Philadelphia as a show of good faith. Simmons did not want to go under any circumstances.

 

– via Ramona Shelburne @ ESPN

Ben Simmons has lost over $19 million in fines this season

Simmons has lost over $19 million in fines since the season began (each missed game costs him $360,000). He hasn’t cleared a paycheck since the $8.25 million (25% of his $33 million salary) that was due to him Oct. 1. Every two weeks the team sends a notice with an explanation of all the fines he has accumulated for failing to render services, instead of a $1.375 million paycheck. By the end of the season, if he does not play for the Sixers or any other team, Simmons could lose another $12 million. It is a staggering amount of money. Everyone involved assumes this issue will eventually be settled in arbitration. But those close to Simmons, who has earned upward of $60 million over his career, insist his decision to demand a trade and then not to play until he is traded has never been financially motivated. He wants a fresh start, away from a franchise he doesn’t feel comfortable playing for anymore.

 

– via Ramona Shelburne @ ESPN

This is my problem.   Even bigger now.   There's a self centeredness about this holdout.   Doc didn't come to see me in Semi valley.  I know he texted and called and I didn't answer but he still should have come out to see me.

Will he expect Nate to do that kind of song and dance if he becomes a Hawk?  Will he expect to be the star... because let me tell you.. This is Trae's town.  Embiid doesn't have nearly the focus of the city that Trae has.  All I saw on my tube last night were sad little faces wearing # 11 Jerseys....and there were some children too.   The more and more I hear, the more I feel like it would be a disaster. 

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 He’s frustrated that Rivers didn’t come to see him while he was training in Los Angeles last summer. Simmons doesn’t dispute that he didn’t reply when Rivers texted and called him several times over the summer asking to see him. But in hindsight, Simmons feels Rivers and the Sixers could’ve done more, like show up at a well-known gym in the San Fernando Valley where he was training.

I find the idea of Simmons intriguing but stuff like this scares me.  How big of a prima donna are you?  The coach calls and texts  you asking to see you but you refuse to answer or take his calls.  Then when he doesn't show up uninvited you blame him for it?  I feel pretty sure if Rivers had shown up then you see something like "Simmons feels t hat Rivers showing up uninvited was done as a deliberate step to hurt his feelings and exacerbate his mental health issues."

Quote

 

And he’s upset that the organization is fining him so heavily after he raised mental health as an issue upon his return.

Ben Simmons has lost over $19 million in fines this season

Simmons has lost over $19 million in fines since the season began (each missed game costs him $360,000). He hasn’t cleared a paycheck since the $8.25 million (25% of his $33 million salary) that was due to him Oct. 1. Every two weeks the team sends a notice with an explanation of all the fines he has accumulated for failing to render services, instead of a $1.375 million paycheck. By the end of the season, if he does not play for the Sixers or any other team, Simmons could lose another $12 million. It is a staggering amount of money. Everyone involved assumes this issue will eventually be settled in arbitration. But those close to Simmons, who has earned upward of $60 million over his career, insist his decision to demand a trade and then not to play until he is traded has never been financially motivated. He wants a fresh start, away from a franchise he doesn’t feel comfortable playing for anymore.

 

– via Ramona Shelburne @ ESPN

This will be an interesting one.  I'd assume the NBA player's union will file a grievance over this but it is a little hard to see how it would play out when Simmons already leaked very publicly that he would never play again for the Sixers before anything was said about his mental health.  

I'd guess this would turn on a variety of issues. 

Has Simmons been to see the Sixer's doctors?  If not, they will probably deny it just like they would a physical injury where their doctor's don't have the chance to validate it. 

Could he play now?  Usually a player with a physical injury will play even when injured if he is capable of contributing to the team's performance and isn't risking making the injury worse.  So how does that work with this type of mental health issue?  

Since Simmons wants to play elsewhere how does that play out in assessing the nature and validity of the mental health issue?  If he was traded to Houston tomorrow and would be ready to suit up then the mental health issue isn't about his ability to play but is about his relationship with the team.  Generally, "I want to play somewhere else" and "I don't like you" don't qualify as reasons to continue to be paid when you refuse to play.  Where does it cross the line from "fu I'm never playing in Philly again, you bunch of backstabbers" to "ADA protected mental healthy issue"?  How do you accommodate a mental issue like that?  

A big old mess.  But this is an interesting new development in refusing to pay him.  I think that conflicts with some earlier reports.

 

[kg01]

7 minutes ago, Diesel said:

This is my problem.   Even bigger now.   There's a self centeredness about this holdout.   Doc didn't come to see me in Semi valley.  I know he texted and called and I didn't answer but he still should have come out to see me.

Will he expect Nate to do that kind of song and dance if he becomes a Hawk?  Will he expect to be the star... because let me tell you.. This is Trae's town.  Embiid doesn't have nearly the focus of the city that Trae has.  All I saw on my tube last night were sad little faces wearing # 11 Jerseys....and there were some children too.   The more and more I hear, the more I feel like it would be a disaster. 

I hear this, to a degree.  The better 'play' would've been to do what 'he who shall not be named' did here.  Make your request then come to work disgruntled.  When you sit out, you encourage public opinion to go against you because the other side basically works the media while you stay silent.

I disagree with folks that think this (his holdout) are indications that he's damaged mentally.  I think it's just a bad play on his part and he's gone to far down the river to turn back now.

If I were him, I'd be all up in the media painting Morey as the disingenuous, Harden-sycophant that he is.  I'd be telling anyone that wants a 'source' that the guy's been playing everyone the whole time and he's been tampering and thumbing his nose at the league.  Go on the offensive.  What else you got to lose?

[thecampster]

12 minutes ago, Diesel said:

This is my problem.   Even bigger now.   There's a self centeredness about this holdout.   Doc didn't come to see me in Semi valley.  I know he texted and called and I didn't answer but he still should have come out to see me.

Will he expect Nate to do that kind of song and dance if he becomes a Hawk?  Will he expect to be the star... because let me tell you.. This is Trae's town.  Embiid doesn't have nearly the focus of the city that Trae has.  All I saw on my tube last night were sad little faces wearing # 11 Jerseys....and there were some children too.   The more and more I hear, the more I feel like it would be a disaster. 

He was in town, spends time out there, didn't come to check in on Ben. Its really standard procedure as the coaching staff does due diligence in the off-season.  That sounds way worse that it is.  Its very similar to the monthly 1v1's I have with my leadership or your goals conversations you have with your supervisor a few times a year.

These guys pretty much all work out in pods around the country and coaches, trainers check in on them from time to time. What Ben is saying is Doc came to town, was doing his rounds and checked in on others but not him.

[thecampster]

5 minutes ago, AHF said:

I find the idea of Simmons intriguing but stuff like this scares me.  How big of a prima donna are you?  The coach calls and texts  you asking to see you but you refuse to answer or take his calls.  Then when he doesn't show up uninvited you blame him for it?  I feel pretty sure if Rivers had shown up then you see something like "Simmons feels t hat Rivers showing up uninvited was done as a deliberate step to hurt his feelings and exacerbate his mental health issues."

This will be an interesting one.  I'd assume the NBA player's union will file a grievance over this but it is a little hard to see how it would play out when Simmons already leaked very publicly that he would never play again for the Sixers before anything was said about his mental health.  

I'd guess this would turn on a variety of issues. 

Has Simmons been to see the Sixer's doctors?  If not, they will probably deny it just like they would a physical injury where their doctor's don't have the chance to validate it. 

Could he play now?  Usually a player with a physical injury will play even when injured if he is capable of contributing to the team's performance and isn't risking making the injury worse.  So how does that work with this type of mental health issue?  

Since Simmons wants to play elsewhere how does that play out in assessing the nature and validity of the mental health issue?  If he was traded to Houston tomorrow and would be ready to suit up then the mental health issue isn't about his ability to play but is about his relationship with the team.  Generally, "I want to play somewhere else" and "I don't like you" don't qualify as reasons to continue to be paid when you refuse to play.  Where does it cross the line from "fu I'm never playing in Philly again, you bunch of backstabbers" to "ADA protected mental healthy issue"?  How do you accommodate a mental issue like that?  

A big old mess.  But this is an interesting new development in refusing to pay him.  I think that conflicts with some earlier reports.

 

Trust issues are mental health issues. Its something worked on by sports psychologists all the time. Teams do team building exercises on this often. A mental health issue can be very targeted, very environment oriented.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

I disagree with folks that think this (his holdout) are indications that he's damaged mentally.  I think it's just a bad play on his part and he's gone to far down the river to turn back now.

It is tough to parse through.  He looked potentially damaged in the playoffs last season in the way that Nick Anderson was damaged in Orlando.  He has refused to talk to anyone on the team.  Is that because of the mental issues he is claiming to have or is he merely lying and hates them?  If he is being honest about the mental issues, then it is an indication there is something real going on.  If he is lying, then you have someone willing to lie about having mental health issues to try to force his team to pay him for games he just is refusing to play because he hates them.  Both of those are red flags.

Quote

If I were him, I'd be all up in the media painting Morey as the disingenuous, Harden-sycophant that he is.  I'd be telling anyone that wants a 'source' that the guy's been playing everyone the whole time and he's been tampering and thumbing his nose at the league.  Go on the offensive.  What else you got to lose?

That could further damage his reputation around the league.  If he bashes his current employer, any prospective employer has to think really hard before being willing to get in bed with him.

[AHF]

9 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Trust issues are mental health issues. Its something worked on by sports psychologists all the time. Teams do team building exercises on this often. A mental health issue can be very targeted, very environment oriented.

There is a difference between a recognized psychiatric condition and broken trust.  Someone who refuses to show up at work because of broken trust needs an underlying mental health condition to strap that on to in order to get coverage under something like the ADA.  Broken trust can exacerbate a psychiatric condition but doesn't imply one.  People with zero psychiatric conditions for ADA purposes can be angry at coworkers or management for broken trust.

On mental health issues potentially being very environment oriented, I don't disagree with this but what is the accommodation when playing requires him to be in the environment with these same people?  How do you rebuild damaged trust when you aren't willing to talk to the people who you are upset with?  The legal obligation to provide accommodations requires you to engage with the employer and to come up with accommodations to allow you to return to work.  It seems like Ben has been unwilling to return to work under any circumstances and indefinite paid leave is not a reasonable accommodation for anyone.

This would not be a clean issue for a grievance proceeding.  Would be very messy if he wants to reverse the fines and recover the money while refusing to spend time with team personnel and team doctors.

[thecampster]

Riddle me this. Ben holds out and is traded to the NY, LA, CHI, DAL, ATL, MIA, markets.  Over the course of the next 10 years, how much more money will he make in endorsements, branding if in one of those markets (especially if he wins a title or 2)?

His agent is probably pushing a great deal of this.  Marketing opportunities are low in Philly despite its size.  Check this link and look at Philly based on Metro Population.

https://hoop-social.com/nba-team-market-size-rankings/

1 minute ago, AHF said:

There is a difference between a recognized psychiatric condition and broken trust.  Someone who refuses to show up at work because of broken trust needs an underlying mental health condition to strap that on to in order to get coverage under something like the ADA.  Broken trust can exacerbate a psychiatric condition but doesn't imply one.  People with zero psychiatric conditions for ADA purposes can be angry at coworkers or management for broken trust.

On mental health issues potentially being very environment oriented, I don't disagree with this but what is the accommodation when playing requires him to be in the environment with these same people?  How do you rebuild damaged trust when you aren't willing to talk to the people who you are upset with?  

This would not be a clean issue for a grievance proceeding.  Would be very messy if he wants to reverse the fines and recover the money while refusing to spend time with team personnel and team doctors.

I don't think he's claiming ADA protection or they wouldn't be fining him.

[AHF]

1 minute ago, thecampster said:

Riddle me this. Ben holds out and is traded to the NY, LA, CHI, DAL, ATL, MIA, markets.  Over the course of the next 10 years, how much more money will he make in endorsements, branding if in one of those markets (especially if he wins a title or 2)?

His agent is probably pushing a great deal of this.  Marketing opportunities are low in Philly despite its size.  Check this link and look at Philly based on Metro Population.

https://hoop-social.com/nba-team-market-size-rankings/

If that is the reason for the holdout, then definitely invites a whole other round of discussions as to whether Atlanta is where he would want to be (and how comfortable Atlanta should feel in his staying if they traded for him).  I can't remember many Atlanta players in any sport who have made huge dollars in endorsements and branding.

[thecampster]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

If that is the reason for the holdout, then definitely invites a whole other round of discussions as to whether Atlanta is where he would want to be (and how comfortable Atlanta should feel in his staying if they traded for him).  I can't remember many Atlanta players in any sport who have made huge dollars in endorsements and branding.

Yes but its much cheaper to live here and tbh, Philly just sucks as a place to live.

[thecampster]

On your statement about reasonable accommodation, I think he was shooting for a trade as the accommodation. That's on Philly for not realizing it wasn't possible to reconcile on Ben's terms.

I think this is an interesting topic for the binding nature of player contracts. There's no way you could really allow for disagreement = trade me to be the norm or to void a player contract at their request. It would be a cluster hump in player movement, super team assembly. But the "how teams treat players", especially in how public their personalities (and by extension the public nature of the disagreements) are, is a topic that should be addressable in the next CBA.  Player grievances from teams airing things in the media.

If I was Ben, I could make a public opinion case (not legal) that the team disparaged him publicly, smeared him. I don't feel the players qualify as an extension of the team (coworkers) but the coach would be as he holds power over the player and I think people are sensitive to teams/owners smearing players. Obviously based on recent events the Hawks are sensitive to it (kudos to us).

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Yes but its much cheaper to live here and tbh, Philly just sucks as a place to live.

I can easily see Simmons preferring Atlanta to Philly for a large number of non-psychiatric-condition related reasons including endorsement potential, quality of life, personalities, etc.

[thecampster]

Just now, AHF said:

I can easily see Simmons preferring Atlanta to Philly for a large number of non-psychiatric-condition related reasons including endorsement potential, quality of life, personalities, etc.

If I were Ben and money were the motivating factor, I would 100% be angling for one of the LA teams.  That 19 mil he's lost would get swallowed up quick.