To piggyback off niremetal's elite thread on Trae Young, the Trae Young conundrum

[NBASupes]

 

It was December 13th. The Hawks played a home game against the streaking yet awful Houston Rockets. Going into halftime up by 11 points. It seemed as if this game could have a chance to end early, possibly by the beginning of the 4th quarter. Going into the 3rd, John Lucas was asked what do the Rockets need to do to win this game.

 

Watching this game, I was like, okay, yeah right when Lucas said this. But then especially in the 4th. I saw Houston change their personnel. Nwaba moved to PG defensively. Anytime Capela who was killing HOU was on the floor, they moved Tate to the 5. They doubled down on stopping the 1-5 PnR. They just played hard and moved the rock. Nothing special, no massive scheme changes, not throwing a ton of defenses at you like TOR or MIA. Just simply a personnel move and playing hard. Houston steadily even without much scoring due to injuries was scoring about 29 points a quarter but in the 4th, they scored a blistering 44 POINTS. The Hawks scoring a usual for them, 33.6 ppq going into the 4th. Only scored 25 which is also a typical thing we have seen this year from the Hawks. 

The Hawks have an effort issue for sure but they have a personnel issue as well which I will address in the next paragraph. They simply don't play that hard. Our as LP would say, they don't make you feel them(Twitter). The Hawks foul a lot but they don't play physical. They do not get into your chest and when they try, they get bumped off many times or offenses tend to use their aggression against them. JC is big on playing with effort. Probably the only player with Clint that gives everything he has on a possession basis but he's too small at times and without a big like Capela, that aggression just turns into fouls.

 

When Atlanta plays within themselves is the best version but the issue with that is, they have to have a steady rhythm. Too often, Atlanta is out of sync and while Bogi is probably the only Hawk who can function not being in sync, the others can't. JC needs his touches. Capela needs to feel like they aren't killing him on defense with blown assignments and missed rotations. Kev gets so disappointed with the mental effort of others not realizing his physical effort isn't it even if mentally, he's the best of all our wings. The sad thing is, it takes nothing to get Atlanta out of sync. Some teams like GS, when they are in sync, GOODNIGHT! With Atlanta, for how long? Which leads us into, the Trae Young conundrum: 

Note: These stats do not tell us how good you are, but how effective you are in this specific situation. The biggest thing I've noticed over the last 4 years of Trae Young was the production of bigs. I started tracking this awhile ago. I am just going to use the RAPTOR/WAR which is impact based stats. This doesn't tell me you are good, it just tells me how impactful you are. 

Centers and PFs: 

What is a trend we see. 

Bigs have outproduced in Atlanta with Trae than anywhere else if they are in the rotation (500mpg min)

Next: 

Jabari Parker: 

Parker basically had the best season of his career with Trae Young. His numbers were much higher than this till SAC played him and his # dropped steeply. 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	Jabari Parker'16-'17	Bucks	SF, PF	1,728	+0.6	-1.3	-0.7	-0.5	-2.1	-2.6	+0.4	-1.5	-1.1	1.4
	Jabari Parker'19-'20	Kings	PF	917	+0.7	-0.9	-0.2	+2.8	-3.1	-0.2	+1.2	-1.4	-0.1	1.2
	Jabari Parker'18-'19	Wizards	SF, PF	1,724	-1.2	-1.0	-2.2	-1.3	-0.2	-1.5	-1.3	-0.8	-2.1	0.6
	Jabari Parker'17-'18	Bucks	SF, PF	910	-0.4	-1.1	-1.5	-2.5	-1.2	-3.7	-0.9	-1.2	-2.1	0.3
	Jabari Parker'14-'15	Bucks	SF, PF	738	-2.3	-1.9	-4.2	-2.1	-4.3	-6.4	-2.4	-2.6	-4.9	-0.8
	Jabari Parker'15-'16	Bucks	SF, PF	2,408	-1.6	-2.5	-4.0	+0.6	-3.0	-2.4	-1.2	-2.7	-3.9	-1.4

Damian Jones is twice as productive in Atlanta than he was last year in SAC. 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	Damian Jones'19-'20	Hawks	C	887	-1.4	-1.7	-3.1	-1.8	-6.0	-7.8	-1.6	-2.6	-4.2	-0.7
	Damian Jones'20-'21	Kings	C	547	-3.0	-2.2	-5.2	-4.4	-0.4	-4.8	-3.5	-2.0	-5.4	-0.7

 

Capela is as either the most productive offensively in Atlanta he's ever been or just as productive. Note, Capela did not play a game for Atlanta even though is listed as a Hawk in his first year with the team. He played every min that season with the Rockets. Clint having a tough year but his last season was the best of his career at ranked 98th in the WAR since 13-14. 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	Clint Capela'20-'21	Hawks	C	2,467	+0.3	+5.1	+5.5	+2.7	+4.0	+6.8	+0.8	+5.2	+6.0	11.0
	Clint Capela'17-'18	Rockets	C	2,554	0.0	+4.2	+4.2	+2.6	-1.4	+1.2	+0.4	+3.3	+3.7	8.4
	Clint Capela'18-'19	Rockets	PF, C	2,580	+0.6	+2.2	+2.8	+1.5	+0.5	+2.0	+0.8	+1.9	+2.7	7.2
	Clint Capela'19-'20	Hawks	C	1,279	-1.0	+4.9	+3.8	-0.5	+0.2	-0.3	-1.0	+4.2	+3.1	3.8
	Clint Capela'16-'17	Rockets	C	1,837	-0.7	+1.5	+0.8	+2.6	-0.9	+1.7	-0.1	+1.1	+1.0	3.5
	Clint Capela'15-'16	Rockets	PF, C	1,514	-0.4	+1.8	+1.4	-0.3	+2.0	+1.7	-0.4	+2.0	+1.6	3.3
	Clint Capela'21-'22	Hawks	C	1,068	+0.3	+2.0	+2.3	+7.3	-3.3	+4.0	+1.8	+1.0	+2.8	3.0

Same for Dedmon. All of his most effective offensive years have been with the Hawks. The only year that was down was his time with the Kings which he ended up getting traded back to the Hawks. While his numbers look bad, it was the worst in the NBA for a center at one point with the Kings. The Hawks basically rejuvenated Dedmon's career in just 10 games that year. 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	Dewayne Dedmon'16-'17	Spurs	C	1,427	-1.4	+3.4	+2.0	-2.2	+4.5	+2.3	-1.7	+3.8	+2.1	3.5
	Dewayne Dedmon'18-'19	Hawks	C	1,609	-1.3	+1.5	+0.2	+0.9	-1.0	0.0	-0.9	+1.1	+0.3	2.5
	Dewayne Dedmon'17-'18	Hawks	C	1,542	-1.8	+1.0	-0.8	-0.1	+0.9	+0.8	-1.5	+1.1	-0.4	1.8
	Dewayne Dedmon'21-'22	Heat	C	586	-1.6	+2.0	+0.5	+4.7	-0.2	+4.5	-0.4	+1.6	+1.3	1.2
	Dewayne Dedmon'15-'16	Magic	C	705	-0.8	+1.3	+0.5	-1.7	-0.3	-2.0	-1.0	+1.1	+0.1	1.0
	Dewayne Dedmon'14-'15	Magic	C	845	-3.2	+0.5	-2.7	-2.8	+5.7	+3.0	-3.2	+1.7	-1.6	0.5
	Dewayne Dedmon'19-'20	Hawks	C	774	-5.9	+3.7	-2.3	-1.5	+1.0	-0.5	-5.4	+3.4	-2.0	0.3

Even Ersan had somewhat of a renaissance year with rookie Trae: 

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/?player=Ersan Ilyasova&season=2019

Next up: Alex Len

His offensive production with Trae is through the roof for his norm. He only played 15 games with the Kings in 2019-20. 40 was w/ Hawks. 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	Alex Len'14-'15	Suns	C	1,518	-2.7	+2.7	0.0	-1.1	+0.8	-0.3	-2.6	+2.5	-0.1	2.1
	Alex Len'19-'20	Kings	C	970	-1.5	+2.0	+0.5	-4.5	+1.7	-2.8	-2.2	+2.1	-0.1	1.3
	Alex Len'18-'19	Hawks	C	1,544	-1.8	+0.6	-1.2	-1.5	+0.3	-1.2	-1.8	+0.6	-1.2	1.2
	Alex Len'17-'18	Suns	C	1,395	-0.9	-0.1	-1.0	-1.9	-1.3	-3.1	-1.1	-0.3	-1.4	1.0
	Alex Len'20-'21	Wizards	C	1,021	-2.5	+1.1	-1.4	-2.7	-1.1	-3.8	-2.7	+0.7	-2.0	0.4
	Alex Len'15-'16	Suns	PF, C	1,821	-4.3	+2.2	-2.2	-3.6	-0.3	-3.8	-4.4	+1.8	-2.6	0.2
	Alex Len'16-'17	Suns	C	1,560	-3.1	+1.8	-1.4	-4.9	-2.0	-6.9	-3.7	+1.1	-2.5	0.2
	Alex Len'21-'22	Kings	C	498	-4.5	-0.7	-5.3	-1.4	-0.8	-2.2	-4.1	-0.7	-4.8	-0.5

Next up: Bruno @TheNorthCydeRises guy: 

Because Bruno is so bad, he hasn't qualified but once and that was with the Hawks for mins needed. Bruno won't be in this use case. 

Next: 

JC, even though he's only been a Hawk, he was the only Hawk that played without Trae that's current and wasn't washed like Jeff: 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	John Collins'20-'21	Hawks	PF, C	2,424	+1.2	+1.0	+2.2	+3.9	+0.2	+4.0	+1.8	+0.9	+2.7	6.8
	John Collins'18-'19	Hawks	PF, C	1,829	+2.5	-0.3	+2.2	+5.2	-1.5	+3.7	+3.2	-0.5	+2.7	5.1
	John Collins'21-'22	Hawks	PF, C	1,142	+2.1	+0.7	+2.8	+1.9	+3.0	+4.9	+2.1	+1.3	+3.4	3.6
	John Collins'17-'18	Hawks	PF, C	1,785	-0.6	+0.3	-0.3	-3.0	+1.0	-2.0	-1.1	+0.5	-0.5	2.0
	John Collins'19-'20	Hawks	PF	1,363	+0.3	-0.7	-0.4	-1.7	+0.9	-0.8	0.0	-0.4	-0.4	1.7

Most bigs didn't get enough mins to be a part of the rotation but we have the data that shows us. 

It's difficult to really use wings as with the exception of Trae's rookie year. It's hard to find guys who played more than a season in the NBA without Trae and are in rotations although there are a few like Kent Bazemore for example. 

Baze's played one season with Trae before being traded and he did not close to his production level. Even though he regressed with Atlanta, when he played for GS and SAC. He maintain a 2+ WAR which is typical of a vet rotational player. 4+ is a good dependable rotational player. 3+ is a starting rotational player. I wasn't much of a fan of Bazemore's game even if his production was high and GS fans really weren't fans and glad he is gone but it's clear Trae's heliocentric style as well as Russ and Bron's, especially Bron doesn't fit him at all. 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	Kent Bazemore'15-'16	Hawks	SG, SF	2,408	-0.1	+1.8	+1.6	-1.1	-1.8	-2.9	-0.3	+1.1	+0.7	4.3
	Kent Bazemore'16-'17	Hawks	SG, SF	2,113	-1.5	+1.9	+0.5	-1.0	-0.5	-1.5	-1.4	+1.5	+0.1	3.1
	Kent Bazemore'20-'21	Warriors	SG, SF	1,333	-2.5	+2.0	-0.5	+0.7	+4.8	+5.5	-2.0	+2.7	+0.7	2.4
	Kent Bazemore'19-'20	Kings	SG, SF	1,688	-2.3	+2.0	-0.3	-4.1	+4.3	+0.2	-2.9	+2.6	-0.2	2.2
	Kent Bazemore'13-'14	Lakers	SG, SF	911	-1.5	+0.5	-1.0	-5.7	0.0	-5.7	-2.4	+0.4	-2.0	0.4
	Kent Bazemore'18-'19	Hawks	PG, SG, SF	1,643	-1.8	+0.4	-1.4	-6.8	+1.0	-5.8	-2.9	+0.6	-2.3	0.4
	Kent Bazemore'14-'15	Hawks	SG, SF	1,627	-2.1	+0.6	-1.5	-4.9	-0.8	-5.8	-2.8	+0.3	-2.5	0.2

Prince probably didn't deserve that contract Brooklyn gave him but you know flashes play a massive role into the 2nd contract and always has. That said, outside of this season, his worst was with Trae as well. This season, he's been used a lot as a 4. It's been nothing short of a disaster for him and MIN. The one thing with wings, offensively, there production with Trae stays the same for the most part outside of guys like Kent and Bembry who needs quality touches but guys like Prince generally stay the same. It's their defense which hits a cliff. That's every wing that's a part of the rotation with Trae. 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	Taurean Prince'20-'21	Cavaliers	SF, PF	905	-0.8	+0.2	-0.6	+0.8	-1.7	-0.9	-0.5	-0.1	-0.6	1.0
	Taurean Prince'16-'17	Hawks	SF	1,168	-2.7	+0.9	-1.7	-4.4	+4.6	+0.2	-3.1	+1.7	-1.4	0.8
	Taurean Prince'19-'20	Nets	SF, PF	1,857	-2.9	+0.2	-2.8	+0.4	+0.4	+0.8	-2.4	+0.2	-2.2	0.6
	Taurean Prince'17-'18	Hawks	SF	2,464	-1.0	-1.5	-2.5	-0.4	-2.6	-2.9	-0.8	-1.8	-2.6	0.2
	Taurean Prince'18-'19	Hawks	SF, PF	1,552	-0.9	-1.3	-2.2	+0.3	-4.2	-3.9	-0.6	-1.9	-2.6	0.1
	Taurean Prince'21-'22	Timberwolves	SF, PF	455	-2.8	-1.0	-3.7	-5.8	-3.5	-9.3	-3.6	-1.6	-5.1	-0.6

Next: Bembry

95 has never been much on offense but he's twice as without Trae than with him and he sucked in Bud's system which Bud rarely liked using him anyway. 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	DeAndre' Bembry'21-'22	Nets	SG, SF	727	-0.3	+1.7	+1.4	+0.7	-0.6	+0.1	-0.1	+1.3	+1.2	1.5
	DeAndre' Bembry'18-'19	Hawks	SG, SF	1,931	-3.1	+0.5	-2.5	-2.7	+2.7	-0.1	-3.2	+1.1	-2.1	0.7
	DeAndre' Bembry'20-'21	Raptors	SG, SF	972	-2.3	+0.3	-2.0	-1.5	+2.5	+1.0	-2.3	+0.8	-1.5	0.6
	DeAndre' Bembry'19-'20	Hawks	SG, SF	915	-3.3	+2.5	-0.8	-6.8	+1.4	-5.4	-4.2	+2.5	-1.7	0.5
	DeAndre' Bembry'17-'18	Hawks	SF, PF	455	-5.3	+0.1	-5.2	-2.6	-0.4	-3.0	-5.0	0.0	-5.0	-0.5

Next: Snell

I was shocked to see Snell regressed in Atlanta production wise but I do think he came to Atlanta on the downswing of his career but these numbers are disappointing. 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	Tony Snell'14-'15	Bulls	SG, SF	1,552	-0.2	-0.1	-0.3	+0.2	+1.1	+1.3	-0.2	+0.2	0.0	2.1
	Tony Snell'15-'16	Bulls	SF	1,301	-2.6	-0.3	-2.9	-0.7	+6.1	+5.4	-2.4	+1.0	-1.3	0.9
	Tony Snell'18-'19	Bucks	SG, SF	1,332	-0.2	-1.5	-1.7	+0.2	+0.2	+0.4	-0.2	-1.3	-1.5	0.9
	Tony Snell'16-'17	Bucks	SG, SF	2,521	-0.6	-1.3	-1.9	+0.5	-3.0	-2.4	-0.4	-1.7	-2.1	0.8
	Tony Snell'19-'20	Pistons	SG, SF	1,641	+0.4	-1.7	-1.3	-2.7	-1.2	-3.9	-0.2	-1.7	-1.9	0.7
	Tony Snell'20-'21	Hawks	SG, SF	1,058	-1.0	-2.1	-3.1	-0.9	-0.5	-1.4	-1.1	-1.9	-3.0	-0.1
	Tony Snell'17-'18	Bucks	SG, SF	2,187	-1.5	-1.5	-3.0	+0.3	-3.2	-2.9	-1.2	-1.9	-3.1	-0.4
	Tony Snell'13-'14	Bulls	SG, SF	1,277	-2.1	-0.6	-2.8	-4.8	-1.4	-6.2	-2.8	-0.9	-3.7	-0.6

Next: Solo cup

His worst production was in Atlanta. 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	Solomon Hill'15-'16	Pacers	SF	1,064	+0.7	+0.9	+1.6	+2.6	+1.2	+3.7	+1.1	+1.0	+2.1	2.7
	Solomon Hill'16-'17	Pelicans	SF	2,374	-2.2	+0.7	-1.5	+0.3	+2.8	+3.1	-1.8	+1.2	-0.6	2.6
	Solomon Hill'14-'15	Pacers	SF	2,381	-1.2	+0.6	-0.6	-2.5	-3.4	-6.0	-1.5	-0.2	-1.7	1.2
	Solomon Hill'19-'20	Heat	SF	1,130	-1.2	-0.5	-1.6	+1.2	-3.0	-1.7	-0.7	-1.0	-1.7	0.6
	Solomon Hill'18-'19	Pelicans	SF, PF	878	-3.0	+0.2	-2.8	-2.2	-2.9	-5.1	-3.0	-0.4	-3.4	-0.3
	Solomon Hill'20-'21	Hawks	SF, PF	1,658	-2.9	-0.2	-3.1	-0.8	-1.0	-1.8	-2.7	-0.4	-3.1	-0.3

Next up: Justin Anderson

Same for Anderson as it was for others

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	Justin Anderson'16-'17	76ers	SG, SF	1,228	-0.9	-0.3	-1.2	-2.2	-2.9	-5.1	-1.2	-0.8	-2.0	0.5
	Justin Anderson'17-'18	76ers	SG, SF	552	-0.2	-0.1	-0.3	-4.6	-0.8	-5.4	-1.2	-0.3	-1.5	0.4
	Justin Anderson'18-'19	Hawks	SG, SF	463	-2.4	-0.4	-2.8	-2.8	+1.9	-0.8	-2.6	+0.1	-2.5	0.1

Next up: Treveon Graham

More of the same: 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	Treveon Graham'18-'19	Nets	PG, SG, SF	794	-2.8	+1.9	-0.9	+2.5	+0.8	+3.3	-1.8	+1.8	-0.1	1.1
	Treveon Graham'17-'18	Hornets	SG	1,050	-0.3	-1.2	-1.5	-2.4	-1.4	-3.7	-0.8	-1.3	-2.1	0.4
	Treveon Graham'19-'20	Hawks	SG, SF	929	-3.2	+0.3	-2.8	-3.7	-0.4	-4.1	-3.5	+0.2	-3.2	-0.2

 

Next up: 

Bogi

Bogi is having a bad year as he had 17-18 in SAC. His offense is so much based on off of how good his shooting is. Defensively, he was much better last year. Bogi might be one of those players where his shooting impact his effort on defense. 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	Bogdan Bogdanovic'20-'21	Hawks	SG	1,903	+2.2	+1.8	+4.0	+3.4	-0.4	+3.0	+2.5	+1.5	+4.0	6.6
	Bogdan Bogdanovic'18-'19	Kings	SG, SF	1,947	+2.2	-0.3	+1.9	-0.6	+0.1	-0.5	+1.7	-0.2	+1.5	4.2
	Bogdan Bogdanovic'19-'20	Kings	SG	1,766	+1.9	-0.4	+1.5	+0.1	-0.3	-0.2	+1.6	-0.4	+1.2	3.6
	Bogdan Bogdanovic'17-'18	Kings	SG, SF	2,175	+0.9	-1.4	-0.4	-0.5	-2.7	-3.2	+0.8	-1.7	-0.9	2.0
	Bogdan Bogdanovic'21-'22	Hawks	SG, SF	780	+0.5	-1.9	-1.4	+0.5	-1.6	-1.1	+0.5	-1.9	-1.4	0.5

 

There was no player outside of Bogi last year who's played better with Trae that's a wing here than where they previously came from whereas almost every big had their best years in Atlanta. We will keep an eye on Cam Reddish who's a rotation player for us who's now in NY. Here is his current RAPTOR: 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	Cam Reddish'20-'21	Hawks	SF	842	-2.0	+0.6	-1.4	-2.7	-2.2	-4.9	-2.3	+0.1	-2.2	0.2
	Cam Reddish'19-'20	Hawks	SF	1,551	-3.3	0.0	-3.4	-0.7	-0.4	-1.1	-2.9	0.0	-3.0	-0.2
	Cam Reddish'21-'22	Hawks	SF	797	-1.3	-0.7	-1.9	-7.8	-4.2	-12.1	-2.8	-1.4	-4.1	-0.6

As far as PGs, there were many who qualified and if they did, they were either only qualified with the Hawks or old like Lou where including them when they are washed just defeats the propose. 

Delon Wright

Normally, a very productive bench PG is completely neutralized in Atlanta. 

					BOX SCORE RAPTOR			ON/OFF RAPTOR			OVERALL RAPTOR
	PLAYER	TEAM	POSITION(S)	MINUTES	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	OFF.	DEF.	TOT.	WAR
	Delon Wright'17-'18	Raptors	PG	1,648	+1.8	+2.1	+3.9	-0.5	+2.1	+1.7	+1.4	+2.2	+3.6	5.4
	Delon Wright'20-'21	Kings	PG	1,748	+1.2	+1.9	+3.1	-0.5	+0.1	-0.4	+0.9	+1.7	+2.6	4.7
	Delon Wright'18-'19	Grizzlies	PG, SG	1,699	+1.0	+2.3	+3.3	-1.7	+0.4	-1.3	+0.5	+2.0	+2.5	4.5
	Delon Wright'19-'20	Mavericks	PG	1,623	+0.9	+0.4	+1.3	-1.8	+0.4	-1.4	+0.4	+0.4	+0.8	2.9
	Delon Wright'16-'17	Raptors	PG	538	+0.2	+3.2	+3.5	-2.6	+6.1	+3.5	-0.3	+4.0	+3.7	1.8
	Delon Wright'21-'22	Hawks	PG	614	-1.2	-0.3	-1.5	-2.3	+1.0	-1.3	-1.5	0.0	-1.6	0.4

 

What this tells me is, Trae generally get the best out of his bigs impact wise, while the wings get worse especially on defense and the PGs come to Atlanta to die. I am not sure if someone like Simmons is our best option moving forward. Simmons who's best used like this below and Trae, who best benefits bigs. The ideal fit is obviously KAT for us. Since he might not be available, what do we do? 

What do we do? It's clear we favor bigs but is JC or Clint good enough or do we need a guy? This is the conundrum of Trae. He might not be a puppet master like CP3 but if he does the same thing year after year, you don't expect teams to adjust and just like Coach Lucas said, play hard and we can do it. I am not an advocate to trade Young but I do think we need to look at what we does best and plug in like the Bulls did with Jordan.

Trae has a specific game. It's not like building around LeBron where he can adjust or building around CP3 who's personality and style has to mesh. Trae gonna play Trae's game. We gotta build around it. What I like about Trae ball over say Harden ball (HOU) is while Harden ball made everyone around him better and this was under the old rules, they struggled to adjust in the playoffs when it matter most, mainly Harden. Whereas Trae ball adjust best in the playoffs. Sadly, the floor of Trae Ball is so low because it's big man based and it can have a low impact floor. Something Harden ball never has. 

My belief is in the bigs. Are Clint and JC good fits? I'll say they are but are the best you can do? That's a question I will guess till I can find a better deal on the market. As far as the wings, I am not sure it's a good idea too invest too much money into the wings. I'll invest where the impact is at it's highest for that said player. Trae is such a hard player to pair with wings. I am not sure what's the best type. I think it's 3&D wings but Snell's lack of impact says maybe not. You gotta do so much. You gotta protect him on defense. You gotta be able to PDS. You gotta be able to know you likely won't be in rhythm most of the time. He's kinda like Michael Jordan of his time. Krause figured out, with a lot of lottery picks how to build around MJ, we gotta do the same around Trae. He's just such a rare offensive talent but he needs the right pieces. 

This is a piggyback thread off this elite post from @niremetal

Quote

I decided to dig into this after seeing a few people say that Trae's 30+ jumper late in last night's game was not a bad shot because he makes it at a good percentage overall. And that's true in general. He came into last night shooting 40.8% on shots from 30+ feet. But I wanted to see if that was true in the 4th Quarter and, in particular, in clutch situations, because my "eye test" is that Trae has increasingly played an inefficient form of Hero Ball late in games this year. Sadly, I was right...like depressingly right.

If you look just at the 4th quarter, Trae came into last night shooting a miserable 27.7% (5-of-18) from 30+ feet. By comparison, he shoots 44.7% on those shots in the first half, and 46.6% in the third quarter.

I was curious to see if that got any better (or worse) in close/late situations, but wasn't able to find detailed shooting splits for clutch time. But...I was able to see his 3P% overall in clutch time versus the rest of the game. The sample size for clutch is small, but here are Trae's 3P% splits this season:

• 1st Quarter: 39.0% (32-of-82)
• 2nd Quarter: 40.0% (26-of-65)
• 3rd Quarter: 40.0% (26-of-65...not a typo, it's actually exactly the same as 2Q)
• 4th Quarter: 25.9% (15-of-58)
• Clutch (<5min / <= 5pts): 11.1% (1-of-9)

Okay, yeah, but 3-pointers are just one facet of the game, right? Unfortunately, the clutch rot seems to affect other aspects of Trae's offensive game too. You can see the overall and by-quarter stats here, and the clutch stats here.

• Overall, Trae shoots an even 50.0% (249-of-498) on 2-pointers. In the 4th quarter, that essentially holds steady at 50.4% (54-of-107). But in clutch situations, it drops to 44.0% (11-of-25).
• Overall, Trae averages 9.8 assists and 4.3 turnovers per 36 minutes. But in the 4th quarter, he averages just 6.5 assists and commits 4.7 turnovers per 36 minutes. And in the clutch, he averages 1.7 assists and 7.6 turnovers per 36 minutes (!!!!!!!!)

That last stat just blew me away. Among players who have played at least 30 clutch minutes this year, Trae is #102 in assists per 36 minutes, but #2 in turnovers per 36 minutes (Giannis is #1 in TO/36 in the clutch, but with 6.2 assists). This from the guy who is #2 in assists per 36 minutes overall.

So in clutch time, Trae is both shooting and passing not just poorly, but horribly. And that kills us, because Trae also has the league's highest usage rate in the clutch.

It's safe to say we can't win games if Trae keeps playing hero ball late like this. Especially if Trae's defense remains as awful as it's been.

---------------------------

Look, I'm not seriously not a hater when it comes to Trae. He's my avatar. I have his jersey, his kicks (black/white SoSoDef edition), two name/number tees, and got my daughter a jersey and t-shirt as well. The only other current Hawk whose jersey I have is Cam's. Oh...wait...

Seriously, I want Trae to succeed more than anything. But I think our playoff run last year got into his head, and he's bought into his own hype as a ice-cold, borderline-invincible clutch player. As a result, he's trying to do too much late in games. Teams see it coming, and defend accordingly, but Trae forces it, resulting in low-percentage shots and very little of the playmaking that makes him so special. I can't find stats on play types, but it looks like he goes ISO and goes away from the PnR late in game, which I'm guessing is a major reason he falls off so much.

And it's killing us. Add that to the fact that he seems to be giving less and less effort defensively, and I'm getting worried about him being the championship-caliber centerpiece I thought he was.

Hopefully Nate--or someone else in the locker room--has the clout and testicular fortitude to tell him to stop playing a totally different style of ball late in the game.

This is my 2nd conundrum thread. The first was the Kent Bazemore conundrum. 

 

Edited January 15, 2022 by NBASupes

[h4wkfan]

I’m with you on the fact that I don’t think Simmons is it. 
 

would a Kat or Embiid be ideal? Sure, but I don’t see them becoming available. I know you like sabonis, but I’m also of the opinion a defensive stopper at C is far more important for a guy like trae than offense (unless they are an elite offensive player). 
 

I’m not sure if our past wings are a good indicator of future performance. Outside of Kevin, bogi. The sample set is a bunch of 7, 8 or 9th guys off the bench for most teams. And bogi is just off recently for whatever reason even tho he gets good look after good look. I do think traes next step is to find growth in doing a better job playing off his teammates and being just below average in moving off the ball. 
 

I think a lot of the hero ball is because he doesn’t have the trust his teammates can do it in the clutch. Which is why I think a Brandon Ingram, sga type that can take away the double at the end of games or go and get a bucket and give trae a break would be huge.

 

Hearing he wants to play with Ben makes me think he recognizes that too. I just don’t think bens lack of offense is going to fix this team.

[NBASupes]

12 minutes ago, h4wkfan said:

I’m with you on the fact that I don’t think Simmons is it. 
 

would a Kat or Embiid be ideal? Sure, but I don’t see them becoming available. I know you like sabonis, but I’m also of the opinion a defensive stopper at C is far more important for a guy like trae than offense (unless they are an elite offensive player). 
 

I’m not sure if our past wings are a good indicator of future performance. Outside of Kevin, bogi. The sample set is a bunch of 7, 8 or 9th guys off the bench for most teams. And bogi is just off recently for whatever reason even tho he gets good look after good look. I do think traes next step is to find growth in doing a better job playing off his teammates and being just below average in moving off the ball. 
 

I think a lot of the hero ball is because he doesn’t have the trust his teammates can do it in the clutch. Which is why I think a Brandon Ingram, sga type that can take away the double at the end of games or go and get a bucket and give trae a break would be huge.

 

Hearing he wants to play with Ben makes me think he recognizes that too. I just don’t think bens lack of offense is going to fix this team.

Ingram impact metrics are worse than Bogi here or in SAC and if our history of wings with Trae is proof, his touches will go down, his defense is which has been bad every year impact will be even worse with Trae. Ingram would he our worst option. Ingram seemed like a good option for replacing Cam, not necessarily for the others. 

I am not sure honestly. Sabonis hasn't played with his ideal personnel but his offensive impact has been on with Capela who's been in ideal situations outside of his season with Russ. KAT has to a degree when Rose was there offensively and he pulled a 5.8. That would have been the highest offensive impact season since Korver 4.6 in the 60 win season. 

I do think we can see a Korver like jump from Sabonis. He's a lethal PnR finisher as is KAT. Lance is the only one he's had in his career outside of Russ who can run it decently. 

Is JC the right PF for Sabonis? What if Okongwu is long term. I still think Okongwu development will decide things. 

It's hard to find many PFs as good on D as JC is right now. 

My ideal fits around Trae

Trae

Last years Bogi

A SF who does the dirty work, can defend and versatile, can shoot open 3s, high BBIQ and feel for the game. Like a bigger Danny Green. 

Defensive minded PF who can protect the rim, communicate, play the PnR, has size, can shoot a little, has high BBIQ, a good feel for the game, and play with a lot of energy. 

An offensive star or superstar center. As long as they don't suck on defense, and at best just average. They must be elite at the PnR. They must have shooting range. I dont care if they aren't good contested shooters, must make open shots. Can pass at a very high level. Set very good or great screens, must command double teams and coverage, must be an automatic bucket if left alone on the block, and they must have a will and drive to be their best self. 

I envision Trae and Bogi as fits. I don't see the others as fits. Hunter projects to be a #2 option who needs quality touches on occasion. JC just too small. Trae can be small, not you. Clint offensively just lacking too much. 

Okongwu could potentially be a fit at the 4. 

Cooper has potential at the 1 as a backup when he gets that shot right. 

The rest can be moved. I do like Kevin as a 6th man for us. 

[Bonkers]

More and More people are waking up to Trae's bullshit. Finally!!! Of course Trae defenders will say they are Trolling LOL

 

 

 

 

I Told y'all people would get sick of Trae's shit!!!

[thecampster]

47 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Ingram impact metrics are worse than Bogi here or in SAC and if our history of wings with Trae is proof, his touches will go down, his defense is which has been bad every year impact will be even worse with Trae. Ingram would he our worst option. Ingram seemed like a good option for replacing Cam, not necessarily for the others. 

I am not sure honestly. Sabonis hasn't played with his ideal personnel but his offensive impact has been on with Capela who's been in ideal situations outside of his season with Russ. KAT has to a degree when Rose was there offensively and he pulled a 5.8. That would have been the highest offensive impact season since Korver 4.6 in the 60 win season. 

I do think we can see a Korver like jump from Sabonis. He's a lethal PnR finisher as is KAT. Lance is the only one he's had in his career outside of Russ who can run it decently. 

Is JC the right PF for Sabonis? What if Okongwu is long term. I still think Okongwu development will decide things. 

It's hard to find many PFs as good on D as JC is right now. 

My ideal fits around Trae

Trae

Last years Bogi

A SF who does the dirty work, can defend and versatile, can shoot open 3s, high BBIQ and feel for the game. Like a bigger Danny Green. 

Defensive minded PF who can protect the rim, communicate, play the PnR, has size, can shoot a little, has high BBIQ, a good feel for the game, and play with a lot of energy. 

An offensive star or superstar center. As long as they don't suck on defense, and at best just average. They must be elite at the PnR. They must have shooting range. I dont care if they aren't good contested shooters, must make open shots. Can pass at a very high level. Set very good or great screens, must command double teams and coverage, must be an automatic bucket if left alone on the block, and they must have a will and drive to be their best self. 

I envision Trae and Bogi as fits. I don't see the others as fits. Hunter projects to be a #2 option who needs quality touches on occasion. JC just too small. Trae can be small, not you. Clint offensively just lacking too much. 

Okongwu could potentially be a fit at the 4. 

Cooper has potential at the 1 as a backup when he gets that shot right. 

The rest can be moved. I do like Kevin as a 6th man for us. 

OO at the 4 is what I've been saying since last year. He needs a consistent jumper to do that though.

[NBASupes]

If I was to trade someone right now. I would have to trade the player that gets me the max value. That's JC. I would want a lot more than Sabonis for JC. JC been more productive. He's locked in for many years. He's a perfect fit with Turner even though Trae isn't a good fit with Turner. I would do that. 

This is the trade I would do:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y9vt5mbr

[marco102]

Hunter seemed to thrive with Trae last night.

Let's hope that continues. Kev does too.

[NBASupes]

33 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

If I was to trade someone right now. I would have to trade the player that gets me the max value. That's JC. I would want a lot more than Sabonis for JC. JC been more productive. He's locked in for many years. He's a perfect fit with Turner even though Trae isn't a good fit with Turner. I would do that. 

This is the trade I would do:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y9vt5mbr

My belief is, you solve the needs step by step. Barnes played his best ball with Luka in a heliocentric offense. He's worth a flyer. Even if SAC doesn't care for Caris, Cleveland does, make them the 4th team and sent Lauri to the Kings. Holiday replaces the our need to play a scrub like TLC. McConnell is out for the year but he's the ideal backup for Trae, long term. 

We would play Sabonis at the 4 like he is right now in IND and Capela at the 5. This offseason, we will reevaluate it and make trades. If KAT becomes available, you have draft assets, Hunter, Sabonis, Capela which could be moved. 

We need an offensive star big, Sabonis solves that. If we can get a superstar offensive big, we put ourselves in position to do that. 

That's how I see it. We should be looking for a 3 who fits what we are looking for. We could possibly find it in FA or the draft. Herb Jones and Lu Dort are just examples although Lu is smallish. 

We gotta envision what's the best way to improve the team. We gotta put players around Trae that he can elevate. 

22 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Hunter seemed to thrive with Trae last night.

Let's hope that continues. Kev does too.

Hunter always looks good when his shots fall but doesn't when they don't and he always get shut out when he's making shots or missing them.

Edited January 15, 2022 by NBASupes

[Diesel]

I think the answer is already here and it's simpler than you make it out to be... there is no conundrum.

The answer is TEMPO.

The problem with Trae and the rest of the team is that they don't understand how powerful they are when they pick up the tempo.   As a young team, they are supposed to be able to run.  However, our guys get the rebound (especially late in the game) and they plod down the court.   In last night's game vs. Miami, this was a problem...  our starters were facing Miami's Defense in the halfcourt set.   This is the setting for Trae's Hero ball because we don't have enough movement and set plays to work against a halfcourt set. 

  What worked well for our 2nd team was the Zone defense.  It worked because it caught Miami off guard and they had hands in their face shooting those threes.. and on the misses, the second team could advance the ball faster than we normally do on a made shot. 

Enter the first team... Whether the other team makes the shot or not we're walking the ball up.  We are allowing their defense to get set. 

Here's your observation Supes...

In our Trae Ball halfcourt set, the play that works the best is The Pick and Roll.  Specifically the 1-4 or 1-5 pick and roll.   That's why Bigs are feasting with Trae.. because what Trae does is he feeds the defense with so many floaters all game long that when he comes down the lane, you don't know if he's going to float or if he's going to hit Clint or JC on the roll .  Then on some occassions, he will see the defender go under the pick and he will pull up and shoot the three.

That's Trae ball:

1.  FLOAT GOAT

2.  PNR

3.  Under the pick three pointer. 

The problem is that our wings don't get much play from that.   The problem is that we don't have a trustable second ball hander that can run a play that could get more of the team invovled.   Even when Trae hands off to Bogi or Kev... about 1/3 of their offense is PNR 2/4 or 2/5.   This is part of the reason why I advocated for Simmons.   Simmons could run plays and he was big enough that he can drive and not need to fall into the PNR.  However, he is not a must. 

A must is having plays with more movement.  The other thing I noticed about the last two games with Delon is that he is different from Trae on offense because he gets the ball, he moves with the ball, he passes off to others and the ball moves from side to side a lot better. 

So the end of the "Conundrum" comes with more tempo and more movement.   Understand that Trae is going to fall back into TraeBall at some point in the game but we have to have options aside from Trae ball and that's Coach Nate's Job.  Nate has to enforce some other offense that get all the other guys involved. 

Sheez JC is shooting about 43% from three and is super high FG% also and he gets his touches either on the PNR or on rebounds... That's crazy.  Where are the slashing plays?  Our offense needs to be expanded and the effort needs to be getting the ball up the court immediately on a rebound. 

 

[Diesel]

56 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

If I was to trade someone right now. I would have to trade the player that gets me the max value. That's JC. I would want a lot more than Sabonis for JC. JC been more productive. He's locked in for many years. He's a perfect fit with Turner even though Trae isn't a good fit with Turner. I would do that. 

This is the trade I would do:

http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=y9vt5mbr

While getting Barnes is something that I would be interested in... Trading JC is a mistake.  Moreover, Sabonis is a step back (honestly).  While he's going to get more rebounds than JC (possibly) he can't step out and hit a midrange or a three point shot.  It would limit him to being a three point PNR finisher/garbage refiller. 

Going after him is not the move. 

[JTB]

Sabonis with Trae is interesting….but you need more back of you trade JC for him. I’d much rather keep JC of course even though Sabonis is better offensively.

I like that Sabonis would give us a true 2nd scoring option to Trae but I actually think in terms of impact Simmons may still be a more impactful player with Trae than Sabonis depending on what the roster looks like anyways.

 

[NBASupes]

11 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I think the answer is already here and it's simpler than you make it out to be... there is no conundrum.

The answer is TEMPO.

The problem with Trae and the rest of the team is that they don't understand how powerful they are when they pick up the tempo.   As a young team, they are supposed to be able to run.  However, our guys get the rebound (especially late in the game) and they plod down the court.   In last night's game vs. Miami, this was a problem...  our starters were facing Miami's Defense in the halfcourt set.   This is the setting for Trae's Hero ball because we don't have enough movement and set plays to work against a halfcourt set. 

  What worked well for our 2nd team was the Zone defense.  It worked because it caught Miami off guard and they had hands in their face shooting those threes.. and on the misses, the second team could advance the ball faster than we normally do on a made shot. 

Enter the first team... Whether the other team makes the shot or not we're walking the ball up.  We are allowing their defense to get set. 

Here's your observation Supes...

In our Trae Ball halfcourt set, the play that works the best is The Pick and Roll.  Specifically the 1-4 or 1-5 pick and roll.   That's why Bigs are feasting with Trae.. because what Trae does is he feeds the defense with so many floaters all game long that when he comes down the lane, you don't know if he's going to float or if he's going to hit Clint or JC on the roll .  Then on some occassions, he will see the defender go under the pick and he will pull up and shoot the three.

That's Trae ball:

1.  FLOAT GOAT

2.  PNR

3.  Under the pick three pointer. 

The problem is that our wings don't get much play from that.   The problem is that we don't have a trustable second ball hander that can run a play that could get more of the team invovled.   Even when Trae hands off to Bogi or Kev... about 1/3 of their offense is PNR 2/4 or 2/5.   This is part of the reason why I advocated for Simmons.   Simmons could run plays and he was big enough that he can drive and not need to fall into the PNR.  However, he is not a must. 

A must is having plays with more movement.  The other thing I noticed about the last two games with Delon is that he is different from Trae on offense because he gets the ball, he moves with the ball, he passes off to others and the ball moves from side to side a lot better. 

So the end of the "Conundrum" comes with more tempo and more movement.   Understand that Trae is going to fall back into TraeBall at some point in the game but we have to have options aside from Trae ball and that's Coach Nate's Job.  Nate has to enforce some other offense that get all the other guys involved. 

Sheez JC is shooting about 43% from three and is super high FG% also and he gets his touches either on the PNR or on rebounds... That's crazy.  Where are the slashing plays?  Our offense needs to be expanded and the effort needs to be getting the ball up the court immediately on a rebound. 

 

We played our best ball when we slowed things down. We used play uptempo but the problem is Trae decision making skills become bad all game, not just in the 4th quarter. The best thing Nate did was change the tempo. What we did much better last year was get stops which got us into a more open court style. We gotta get a lot more stops than we have been doing so far this year and also are rebounding has taken a major step back.

We also gotta be honest, the COVID year really hurt shooting from bigs and role players. We ate off of that last year in leaving those guys open. We haven't been so lucky with that this year and its causing us to have Capela away from the basket far more often than last year as the zone defense was a big help last year, now, we just get killed in it. 

Can't play uptempo ball and expect to win if that's not adjacent to your personnel.

Our 2nd unit has better defenders than our 1st unit. That helps a ton when defending. Better defenders, its the same for offense, better offensive players help more than bad ones. Not trying to be starky either, just stating facts. 

I have no issues walking the ball up within the flow of the game. It's when it's the 4th and they locked down your offense, you have to push tempo to get better looks even if risk goes up because of it. 

Trae ball is way more than that and the PnR is way ahead of the floater for Trae. The floater is a scoring option for Trae. It's not the entire operation. 
 

Yep, we spam the PnR, especially when Clint is their 1/5 PnR because it creates space for Trae. He does it because it is best for his game but he does it better than anyone in the NBA has ever done it. 

It could generate more offense for the wings and when we had less dependable bigs like Jones and Parker, he did use it to create for others, he mainly uses it for himself. Whereas Luka or Bron like to use it to create for others more than score for themselves. 

My issue with Simmons is touches. Will he get touches if it's not from rebounding. Trae is the king of you get the board and demanding for the rock like his life won't go on. Especially in more important possessions. Simmons damn near blew a casket when they went to Jimmy Butler, with Trae, it's not just the coach, it's also the player. 

That's a part of Trae ball. He is a ball stopper. All of the graduates of LeBron James University are. Especially the honors students like Trae Young and Luka Doncic. 

It's his playing style. You can't change people playing style. It is what it is.

I would to see JC used more off the ball in movement. Man, I would love it.

[JTB]

29 minutes ago, Diesel said:

While getting Barnes is something that I would be interested in... Trading JC is a mistake.  Moreover, Sabonis is a step back (honestly).  While he's going to get more rebounds than JC (possibly) he can't step out and hit a midrange or a three point shot.  It would limit him to being a three point PNR finisher/garbage refiller. 

Going after him is not the move. 

Yeah the thing that Sabonis has going for him that we can’t argue with JC is that Sabonis can score extremely well with his back to the basket in the paint and he’s actually one of the best PnR big men in the nba like collins, he just don’t finish with flash like JC cause he isn’t athletic. 
 

Sabonis is also a better rebounder than Collins and playmaker out the post ….Collins has better athleticism, defense, and shooting however no argument.

 

but if we are talking about adding the better offensive player it’s Sabonis over JC. The better overall player is JC. The more impactful player is….???? That’s the mystery part for me. Trae hasn’t had another player who can go get his own shot without his help on a consistent basis so it may change the whole dynamic of how these games play out.

Maybe at end the end of games plays are ran to Sabonis over Trae since he’s struggling at the end of games this season. 

[NBASupes]

34 minutes ago, Diesel said:

While getting Barnes is something that I would be interested in... Trading JC is a mistake.  Moreover, Sabonis is a step back (honestly).  While he's going to get more rebounds than JC (possibly) he can't step out and hit a midrange or a three point shot.  It would limit him to being a three point PNR finisher/garbage refiller. 

Going after him is not the move. 

You gotta see the big picture. Is getting an offensive star at an enhancement production position more important than getting a better player who adds more value? I think it is but I want a quality trade for it. I think Barnes, McConnell under a good deal, and Holiday cover the JC for Sabonis part. 

Sabonis shoots it like Horford. Can hit an consistently hit contested middy as well as open middy and he hits open 3s although struggles with contested 3s. The difference is, he's not gonna hit fadeaway like JC nor is he a movement specialist like JC. Sabonis provides superior value as a scorer in the post, can draw consistent doubles, the best passing big outside of Jokic, and he's can be used in a lot more on ball actions than JC can. JC and Sabonis are both elite PnR screeners and rollers. Both are capable of PnP but JC is a better shooter. 

Defensively, there is a clear gap between JC and Sabonis. JC is just much better. 

 

[Diesel]

7 minutes ago, JTB said:

Yeah the thing that Sabonis has going for him that we can’t argue with JC is that Sabonis can score extremely well with his back to the basket in the paint and he’s actually one of the best PnR big men in the nba like collins, he just don’t finish with flash like JC cause he isn’t athletic. 
 

Sabonis is also a better rebounder than Collins and playmaker out the post ….Collins has better athleticism, defense, and shooting however no argument.

 

but if we are talking about adding the better offensive player it’s Sabonis over JC. The better overall player is JC. The more impactful player is….???? That’s the mystery part for me. Trae hasn’t had another player who can go get his own shot without his help on a consistent basis so it may change the whole dynamic of how these games play out.

Maybe at end the end of games plays are ran to Sabonis over Trae since he’s struggling at the end of games this season. 

I love a back to the basket big.  I just don't see our offense going that way.   Secondly, I don't think Sabonis can defend the 4.  Thirdly, wasn't Sabonis the one that ran Nate out of Indy?

[JTB]

8 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

You gotta see the big picture. Is getting an offensive star at an enhancement production position more important than getting a better player who adds more value? I think it is but I want a quality trade for it. I think Barnes, McConnell under a good deal, and Holiday cover the JC for Sabonis part. 

Sabonis shoots it like Horford. Can hit an consistently hit contested middy as well as open middy and he hits open 3s although struggles with contested 3s. The difference is, he's not gonna hit fadeaway like JC nor is he a movement specialist like JC. Sabonis provides superior value as a scorer in the post, can draw consistent doubles, the best passing big outside of Jokic, and he's can be used in a lot more on ball actions than JC can. JC and Sabonis are both elite PnR screeners and rollers. Both are capable of PnP but JC is a better shooter. 

Defensively, there is a clear gap between JC and Sabonis. JC is just much better. 

 

Sabonis and Capela….does this duo work? 
 

offensively Sabonis need space to operate and be the good post scorer he is. Having capela crowds some of that space since capela can’t stretch the defense like Myles Turner can.

 

Defensively can Sabonis truly cover 4s? Most are out there on the perimeter these days.

[JTB]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

I love a back to the basket big.  I just don't see our offense going that way.   Secondly, I don't think Sabonis can defend the 4.  Thirdly, wasn't Sabonis the one that ran Nate out of Indy?

Lol I know you do! 
 

can Sabonis guard 4s??..that’s my question too  

 

I don’t think it was Sabonis by himself necessarily. I think it was a full team thing.

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, JTB said:

Sabonis and Capela….does this duo work? 
 

offensively Sabonis need space to operate and be the good post scorer he is. Having capela crowds some of that space since capela can’t stretch the defense like Myles Turner can.

 

Defensively can Sabonis truly cover 4s? Most are out there on the perimeter these days.

It's a half season experiment. Could it work? I dont even know. 

Sabonis is used as a 4 right now but he generally guards the biggest player.

Edited January 15, 2022 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I love a back to the basket big.  I just don't see our offense going that way.   Secondly, I don't think Sabonis can defend the 4.  Thirdly, wasn't Sabonis the one that ran Nate out of Indy?

Our offense been going in that direction this year. Dieng, Capela, Gallo, and JC have all gotten more post up touches than last year. 

Edited January 15, 2022 by NBASupes

[JTB]

24 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

 

That's a part of Trae ball. He is a ball stopper. All of the graduates of LeBron James University are. Especially the honors students like Trae Young and Luka Doncic. 

It's his playing style. You can't change people playing style. It is what it is.

I would to see JC used more off the ball in movement. Man, I would love it.

This must have been discussed behind the scenes recently and perhaps after Collins and Gallo public comments because the past 3 or so games I’ve been seeing different people bring the ball up the court a lot more often like Gallo, Huerter, Bogi.

I get it’s Traes style but I think this one is an easy adjustment for Trae is a player like Simmons is on the team too. Trae knows Simmons can pass it down court or get it up court like he can. You may disagree Trae can adjust his style on this part of his game but I believe he can especially with a player like Simmons