To piggyback off niremetal's elite thread on Trae Young, the Trae Young conundrum

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, aali34 said:

Perimeter players gotta make them pay during scramble situations.

Either the 4 gotta be a playmaker. 

I've been thinking the same thing. You gotta have two playmakers on the court but you gotta have a good decision maker. Trae biggest issue is inconsistency with decision making. 

[aali34]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I've been thinking the same thing. You gotta have two playmakers on the court but you gotta have a good decision maker. Trae biggest issue is inconsistency with decision making. 

JJJ looks like the archetype for that kind of player, he's just too raw right now.

Ben Simmons could be that guy but idk. We'll see what Travis thinks.

I'd prefer upgrading the 2. Jaylen Brown is my kinda guy.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, aali34 said:

JJJ looks like the archetype for that kind of player, he's just too raw right now.

Ben Simmons could be that guy but idk. We'll see what Travis thinks.

I'd prefer upgrading the 2. Jaylen Brown is my kinda guy.

JJJ would be the perfect fit if Sabonis was the 5. As things stand, he's too much of a liability. He also struggles with touches from Morant. His best play is generally when Morant is out.

I have my doubts with Simmons. But there could be a reward as well. Simmons at the end of the day is a 4 who's been used at the 1. 

Edited January 16, 2022 by NBASupes

[aali34]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

JJJ would be the perfect fit if Sabonis was the 5. As things stand, he's too much of a liability. He also struggles with touches from Morant. His best play is generally when Morant is out.

I have my doubts with Simmons. But there could be a reward as well. Simmons at the end of the day is a 4 who's been used at the 1. 

I meant our JJJ lol. Jalen Johnson Jr. He's a tempo pushing, ball handling 4 with court vision. Just really raw and can't play defense.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, aali34 said:

I meant our JJJ lol. Jalen Johnson Jr. He's a tempo pushing, ball handling 4 with court vision. Just really raw and can't play defense.

I didn't even know he was a jr. Idk. He's so far from ready. Idk. Like Okongwu last year, I need to see more growth before I can fairly assess and judge.

[aali34]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I didn't even know he was a jr. Idk. He's so far from ready. Idk. Like Okongwu last year, I need to see more growth before I can fairly assess and judge.

Just checked and you right. He's not a Jr. I must have been confused with some one else.

[h4wkfan]

@NBASupes 
Had to get on comp to see graphs. That would’ve saved me some time looking forward to podcast 

I agreed baze took a step back. Wasn’t glossing over anything - just pointing out he had back to back down years. And I’d lean towards princes defense taking a hit because a large chunk of his minutes were played in lineup wa with rookie trae and sophmore huerter + Collins - that teams defense was atrocious which is why it was 1 of baze’s worst years too. 

I just disagree with the blanket statement that trae makes his wings worse. The only wing worth anything that trae has had since his rookie season (that played elsewhere) just put up the best #s of their career. It’s not a coincidence that happened plus every other current wing is better playing with trae than without. 
 

Just like bigs - there is a fit component (preaching to the choir, I know). Not every wing will be better with trae (net impact) just as not every big will be. That’s all.
 

and yes. Folks like treveon graham, snell, solo,and Justin Anderson were washed up by the time they got here. 

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, h4wkfan said:

@NBASupes 
Had to get on comp to see graphs. That would’ve saved me some time looking forward to podcast 

I agreed baze took a step back. Wasn’t glossing over anything - just pointing out he had back to back down years. And I’d lean towards princes defense taking a hit because a large chunk of his minutes were played in lineup wa with rookie trae and sophmore huerter + Collins - that teams defense was atrocious which is why it was 1 of baze’s worst years too. 

I just disagree with the blanket statement that trae makes his wings worse. The only wing worth anything that trae has had since his rookie season (that played elsewhere) just put up the best #s of their career. It’s not a coincidence that happened plus every other current wing is better playing with trae than without. 
 

Just like bigs - there is a fit component (preaching to the choir, I know). Not every wing will be better with trae (net impact) just as not every big will be. That’s all.
 

and yes. Folks like treveon graham, snell, solo,and Justin Anderson were washed up by the time they got here. 

I lost my post when my phone died. But I agree with you that we don't have enough quality to say this is more than just an hypothesis. We just don't have enough at this time. That said, my eyes strongly feel as well as the touches charts that it's more than likely offensively, wings would fare better elsewhere unless they are best at spot up shooting and are limited offensive players overall with Trae. Just my personal feelings and from watching a lot of games, many multiple times. 

[Diesel]

36 minutes ago, aali34 said:

I meant our JJJ lol. Jalen Johnson Jr. He's a tempo pushing, ball handling 4 with court vision. Just really raw and can't play defense.

 

If it's one thing I wish Hawks fans wouldn't do... is believe that our Draft picks are the best in the world.  We're weeping over Cam (the traitor) as though we lost Kobe.   Here's the deal.. Jalen Johnson has a whole lot to do before he's ready to even be a BU... Don't talk about Summer League unless you're willing to admit that Dion Glover was better than Kobe. 

 

[aali34]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 

If it's one thing I wish Hawks fans wouldn't do... is believe that our Draft picks are the best in the world.  We're weeping over Cam (the traitor) as though we lost Kobe.   Here's the deal.. Jalen Johnson has a whole lot to do before he's ready to even be a BU... Don't talk about Summer League unless you're willing to admit that Dion Glover was better than Kobe. 

 

I did say he's raw lol. I like his skillset, he's been ass on an NBA court and iffy in the G-League. BUT he does have a skillset we need and it's playmaking from the 4.

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, aali34 said:

I did say he's raw lol. I like his skillset, he's been ass on an NBA court and iffy in the G-League. BUT he does have a skillset we need and it's playmaking from the 4.

He's been pretty good in the G-League. By far better than iffy but he's not a NBA player right now. He's a G-league player developing to become a NBA player. 

[aali34]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He's been pretty good in the G-League. By far better than iffy but he's not a NBA player right now. He's a G-league player developing to become a NBA player. 

He puts up numbers for sure and is aggressive. IDK that clip of him sleeping on defense was iffy. We'll see.

The fact he's a part of the discussion shows how the season has fallen apart.

[niremetal]

Since you called my thread elite, I felt obligated to read your whole dissertation, haha.

No, but seriously, that's very interesting stuff. I do think it looks like the positive effect on bigs is much more pronounced than the negative effect on wings. So I think that the key is finding the "right" kinds of wings to pair with him...but like you said, that's awfully, awfully hard.

Right now, the main issue is defense (my post about his clutch offensive performance notwithstanding). He is just a historically bad defensive player. That's not an exaggeration. He's the only guy who has been bottom-20 in defensive RAPTOR 3 seasons running...and he's been doing it 4 straight years now, never finishing *better* than 13th-worst in the league. And the constant ball-watching and his seeming mentality of "I will make at most 1 close-out, ball-pressure, or hard rotation per possession" (seriously, watch him in-game...even when he does try, it's always just a single spurt of effort, followed by ball-watching) has to take a toll on the other guys on the floor. It's easy to see how that would drag down other wings' defensive performance after awhile.

Also, did you catch his postgame interview today? Take a listen to this.

Listen to his answer to the first question about what he thought went wrong. His answer was basically "my teammates missed open shots." But the killer wasn't just a couple missed shots--it was the fact that they let the Knicks score 10 points in just over 2 minutes down the stretch

And then later when asked about whether he thought the team was getting closer, he said yes, and that the team played great defense for three and a half quarters. But that ignores that the Knicks blew open their initial 14-point lead by rattling off 23 points in 6 minutes after Trae entered the game in the 2Q.

The fact that he (and the team, but he's far and away the #1 culprit) are having so many awful defensive lapses and he just doesn't seem to even see or think about that...it's very, very disturbing.

Edited January 16, 2022 by niremetal

[niremetal]

And your point is spot on, @NBASupes, that Trae is like MJ in that his skill set and personality are so unique that it's imperative to surround him with *exactly* the right teammates. I remain convinced that there was literally no one other than Pippen who had the complete skill set (three-level scorer with great passing skills, and a historically great on-ball defender) and mentality (how many other guys with Pippen's skill level would be okay with being such a clear second fiddle?) necessary to be the second superstar alongside MJ. If Krause doesn't draft Pippen, the Bulls never win a title. I'm convinced of that.

Does that guy exist for Trae? I just don't know. If he doesn't exist or if we can't find him quickly, we're screwed. No way a team can win a title with a superstar who is that big a liability on one side of the ball unless everything else aligns absolutely perfectly.

Even then, it might not be enough. He's been in the top 2 in offensive RAPTOR all season. But his defense is so freaking bad that in terms of overall RAPTOR, he's wedged between Garrison Matthews and Ricky Rubio. It's just not possible for him to continue to be *this* big a defensive drag and for the team to truly contend.

Edited January 16, 2022 by niremetal

[NBASupes]

The Trae Young Conundrum Podcast

https://voca.ro/15RDVIT9h6fh

[Diesel]

10 hours ago, niremetal said:

And your point is spot on, @NBASupes, that Trae is like MJ in that his skill set and personality are so unique that it's imperative to surround him with *exactly* the right teammates. I remain convinced that there was literally no one other than Pippen who had the complete skill set (three-level scorer with great passing skills, and a historically great on-ball defender) and mentality (how many other guys with Pippen's skill level would be okay with being such a clear second fiddle?) necessary to be the second superstar alongside MJ. If Krause doesn't draft Pippen, the Bulls never win a title. I'm convinced of that.

Does that guy exist for Trae? I just don't know. If he doesn't exist or if we can't find him quickly, we're screwed. No way a team can win a title with a superstar who is that big a liability on one side of the ball unless everything else aligns absolutely perfectly.

Even then, it might not be enough. He's been in the top 2 in offensive RAPTOR all season. But his defense is so freaking bad that in terms of overall RAPTOR, he's wedged between Garrison Matthews and Ricky Rubio. It's just not possible for him to continue to be *this* big a defensive drag and for the team to truly contend.

You must remember, when Pippen first got to the Bulls, he was none of those things you mentioned.   I truly believe that playing beside Jordan made him into Pippen.   He was a good defender, but not a great defender.   He was a good ball handler but not a point forward.  He was a good scorer but not a great scorer... You watched his maturation playing beside Jordan.  I think this because I believe that Jordan had such a work ethic that it made Pippen reach down deeper.   JC has come a long way.  Hunter is coming along... but are these guys being affected by seeing how hard Trae works?

[aali34]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

You must remember, when Pippen first got to the Bulls, he was none of those things you mentioned.   I truly believe that playing beside Jordan made him into Pippen.   He was a good defender, but not a great defender.   He was a good ball handler but not a point forward.  He was a good scorer but not a great scorer... You watched his maturation playing beside Jordan.  I think this because I believe that Jordan had such a work ethic that it made Pippen reach down deeper.   JC has come a long way.  Hunter is coming along... but are these guys being affected by seeing how hard Trae works?

True. Tony Parker and Ginobili wouldn't be who they were without Duncan.

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

You must remember, when Pippen first got to the Bulls, he was none of those things you mentioned.   I truly believe that playing beside Jordan made him into Pippen.   He was a good defender, but not a great defender.   He was a good ball handler but not a point forward.  He was a good scorer but not a great scorer... You watched his maturation playing beside Jordan.  I think this because I believe that Jordan had such a work ethic that it made Pippen reach down deeper.   JC has come a long way.  Hunter is coming along... but are these guys being affected by seeing how hard Trae works?

This is true but I dont think we got the clay that can be molded into the perfect fit for Trae yet. 

Capela is appealing but even we all see the flaws. I do think Bogi is literally the ideal fit but he has to be more of a sharp and he has to be what he was defensively last year. 

I don't believe we can mold Hunter into what we need around Trae. We dont need a 15-20ppg getter. We need 8 to 10 ppg, a dawg, does all the dirty work, always cutting to the basket, tremendous broad body, can make open threes, versatile defensively, can attack the boards, and when he does attack, he has the ability to on rare occasions. He can't be all Wes Iwundu out there. All incapable of shit offensively. When he is called upon, he can deliver and he's confortable in his role. I need someone with the dawg of young Rodman. Honestly, young Rodman with a three ball would be the ideal.  

At the 4, I am not sure what works anymore. JC seemed like a good fit but his size is just too small. If he was his size, next to Embiid or Jokic, i would feel much better. It's too hard to have a small backcourt and a small frontcourt in a heliocentric offense. 

While i see the value of a Capela and i could have more offensive success with a Sabonis, I think we need someone better than both at the 5 and that might not be possible. If we gotta roll with Clint, we gotta upgrade JC or change that. It is what it is. 

Edited January 16, 2022 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

Teri Eason looks intriguing 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, NBASupes said:

This is true but I dont think we got the clay that can be molded into the perfect fit for Trae yet. 

Capela is appealing but even we all see the flaws. I do think Bogi is literally the ideal fit but he has to be more of a sharp and he has to be what he was defensively last year. 

I don't believe we can mold Hunter into what we need around Trae. We dont need a 15-20ppg getter. We need 8 to 10 ppg, a dawg, does all the dirty work, always cutting to the basket, tremendous broad body, can make open threes, versatile defensively, can attack the boards, and when he does attack, he has the ability to on rare occasions. He can't be all Wes Iwundu out there. All incapable of shit offensively. When he is called upon, he can deliver and he's confortable in his role. I need someone with the dawg of young Rodman. Honestly, young Rodman with a three ball would be the ideal.  

At the 4, I am not sure what works anymore. JC seemed like a good fit but his size is just too small. If he was his size, next to Embiid or Jokic, i would feel much better. It's too hard to have a small backcourt and a small frontcourt in a heliocentric offense. 

While i see the value of a Capela and i could have more offensive success with a Sabonis, I think we need someone better than both at the 5 and that might not be possible. If we gotta roll with Clint, we gotta upgrade JC or change that. It is what it is. 

I see where you're going with your blow up everything and find fits for Trae.

Let me tell you... 2017 Klay was a perfect fit for Trae.   Simmons is a very good fit for Trae.

But those aside.

Capela and JC does work. 

Our problems are on the wings. 

Neither Kev nor Bogi can handle the ball well enough nor are they good enough defenders. 

Hunter has to be more active.  His game is so patient that it makes him a not so great fit even though he has the defense. 

Trae needs a true 3 and D SF.  Hunter can be that but he has to get more tempo in his game.  Sometimes he's too deliberate.   Sometimes it feels like he lucks into the right thing. 

Trae needs a Ball handler at the OG spot who can play good defense and Shoot.   I believe that this is why Delon was picked up but Delon doesn't quite do it. 

Lou doesn't defend well enough and doesn't run an offense with Trae on the floor well enough. 

There's nothing we can do to get PG13.

If the three wasn't so important then guys like CJ McColloum or B. Ingram would be strong considerations and both of the guys are on the block.

If Defense and being able to create didn't matter, then Heild or Kennard would be great pickups. 

Caris Levert is a guy that can create but he doesn't do any of the other stuff. 

I'm liking the idea of getting Gary Trent Jr for Bogi because if we're not going to be able to nail three pointers, at the least we can play strong defense.   And Hustle!

So right now, the key is finding the right guy to play SG and SF...