To piggyback off niremetal's elite thread on Trae Young, the Trae Young conundrum

[NBASupes]

34 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I see where you're going with your blow up everything and find fits for Trae.

Let me tell you... 2017 Klay was a perfect fit for Trae.   Simmons is a very good fit for Trae.

But those aside.

Capela and JC does work. 

Our problems are on the wings. 

Neither Kev nor Bogi can handle the ball well enough nor are they good enough defenders. 

Hunter has to be more active.  His game is so patient that it makes him a not so great fit even though he has the defense. 

Trae needs a true 3 and D SF.  Hunter can be that but he has to get more tempo in his game.  Sometimes he's too deliberate.   Sometimes it feels like he lucks into the right thing. 

Trae needs a Ball handler at the OG spot who can play good defense and Shoot.   I believe that this is why Delon was picked up but Delon doesn't quite do it. 

Lou doesn't defend well enough and doesn't run an offense with Trae on the floor well enough. 

There's nothing we can do to get PG13.

If the three wasn't so important then guys like CJ McColloum or B. Ingram would be strong considerations and both of the guys are on the block.

If Defense and being able to create didn't matter, then Heild or Kennard would be great pickups. 

Caris Levert is a guy that can create but he doesn't do any of the other stuff. 

I'm liking the idea of getting Gary Trent Jr for Bogi because if we're not going to be able to nail three pointers, at the least we can play strong defense.   And Hustle!

So right now, the key is finding the right guy to play SG and SF...

 

 

I do think Klay fits many because he only requires 38 touches a game and he doesn't really have to be in rhythm to score although he's a tad streaky without quality touches. He like JC are movement players who function in all styles but best in player movement based systems. I can see that. I can see that. Klay is just such an impossible player to replicate. We got Cam as he's the closest to Klay and he wasn't close to Klay. Movement BBIQ was poor, needed a lot more touches, didn't play the defense BBIQ wise that Klay can.

A big part of GS and Chicago success is luck. Steph Curry and Michael Jordan aren't the easiest players to build a champion around. I think Trae is in that boat. We either got to get lucky or create luck. 

JC and Clint work but they don't work well enough to overcome Trae RS low impact floor. Trae is what you call, a ceiling raiser. He can raise the roof of our team but his floor is just very lower. Lower than even JC. We gotta get better here. 

I disagree on Bogi and Kev. I actually think they are great fits at SG for Trae. They get the ball out quickly. They play on spot up, can score all three levels, Bogi can give you the floater and he's a competent ball handler and can run a solid PnR as well.

Decent playmaker too. I really think Bogi was an exceptional get for Travis. Kev is a really good fit as well as a 6th man. I don't have too much issues with them defensively other than lateral quickness could be better and they give up more open 3s than I prefer.

Hunter has a great skill set and I like his ability and potential. I dont see him reaching his peak in Atlanta as well as now gone Cam. As stated above. We dont need anymore scorers on the wing. We need dawgs! Fighters, athletic, high motor, can defend multiple positions, can cover for mistakes, high BBIQ, basically a young Rodman but with a decent open 3 pointer. 

I would prefer a Dawg & Defense aka D&D with and can decently make open threes and always cutting to the rack. Someone who gets 15-20 touches in 30mpg and he's good with that. 

With Trae, I don't see another ball handler working unless they do it when in transition or they are creating it in the open court. This is where I give Simmons a pass whereas i don't see it with most ball handlers. 

Most players struggle running an offense, even Trae. 

Not that I am aware of and he gets 77 touches a game, good luck seeing that come together. Even the year with Russ, it was 60 touches. That's not happening with Trae 

All four of those guys have severe flaws which makes their fit poor with Trae. Trae lack of defense really screws things up. It's hard enough just with the heliocentric style and his lack or off ball chops and stamina but the defense is the killer. 

Trent Jr doesn't have the BBIQ or feel for the game Bogi has. Those things matter especially in a ball movement styled attack which we used with our heliocentric style.

The 3 is a problem for me but not for the same reasons. I think Hunter is special. I just think we don't need special. We need someone that doesn't need anything ran for him, loves defense, loves possession by possession Basketball, versatile, and smart, great rebounder, great at stocks, great at doing dirty work and being scrappy. That player might not he worth a lot of money but he would hold tremendous value on this squad. Someone who requires limited touches like P.J. Tucker

Edited January 17, 2022 by NBASupes

[Spud2nique]

On 1/15/2022 at 7:16 AM, NBASupes said:

I would want a lot more than Sabonis for JC.

Huh? Nah I’m good with the even exchange here. I’ll even throw in a 2nd round pick how’s that.

[niremetal]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I do think Klay fits many because he only requires 38 touches a game and he doesn't really have to be in rhythm to score although he's a tad streaky without quality touches. He like JC are movement players who function in all styles but best in player movement based systems. I can see that. I can see that. Klay is just such an impossible player to replicate. We got Cam as he's the closest to Klay and he wasn't close to Klay. Movement BBIQ was poor, needed a lot more touches, didn't play the defense BBIQ wise that Klay can.

A big part of GS and Chicago success is luck. Steph Curry and Michael Jordan aren't the easiest players to build a champion around. I think Trae is in that boat. We either got to get lucky or create luck. 

JC and Clint work but they don't work well enough to overcome Trae RS low impact floor. Trae is what you call, a ceiling raiser. He can raise the roof of our team but his floor is just very lower. Lower than even JC. We gotta get better here. 

I disagree on Bogi and Kev. I actually think they are great fits at SG for Trae. They get the ball out quickly. They play on spot up, can score all three levels, Bogi can give you the floater and he's a competent ball handler and can run a solid PnR as well.

Decent playmaker too. I really think Bogi was an exceptional get for Travis. Kev is a really good fit as well as a 6th man. I don't have too much issues with them defensively other than lateral quickness could be better and they give up more open 3s than I prefer.

Hunter has a great skill set and I like his ability and potential. I dont see him reaching his peak in Atlanta as well as now gone Cam. As stated above. We dont need anymore scorers on the wing. We need dawgs! Fighters, athletic, high motor, can defend multiple positions, can cover for mistakes, high BBIQ, basically a young Rodman but with a decent open 3 pointer. 

I would prefer a Dawg & Defense aka D&D with and can decently make open threes and always cutting to the rack. Someone who gets 15-20 touches in 30mpg and he's good with that. 

With Trae, I don't see another ball handler working unless they do it when in transition or they are creating it in the open court. This is where I give Simmons a pass whereas i don't see it with most ball handlers. 

Most players struggle running an offense, even Trae. 

Not that I am aware of and he gets 77 touches a game, good luck seeing that come together. Even the year with Russ, it was 60 touches. That's not happening with Trae 

All four of those guys have severe flaws which makes their fit poor with Trae. Trae lack of defense really screws things up. It's hard enough just with the heliocentric style and his lack or off ball chops and stamina but the defense is the killer. 

Trent Jr doesn't have the BBIQ or feel for the game Bogi has. Those things matter especially in a ball movement styled attack which we used with our heliocentric style.

The 3 is a problem for me but not for the same reasons. I think Hunter is special. I just think we don't need special. We need someone that doesn't need anything ran for him, loves defense, loves possession by possession Basketball, versatile, and smart, great rebounder, great at stocks, great at doing dirty work and being scrappy. That player might not he worth a lot of money but he would hold tremendous value on this squad. Someone who requires limited touches like P.J. Tucker

I like everything you're saying. But we should also remember that there has literally never been a team with a heliocentric offense that has won a title in the past 40 years.

Re MJ: I don't think a team running the triangle offense in the illegal defense era (zone D and even cheating off-ball were prohibited, which made the triangle offense's spacing extremely difficult to scheme against when the ball was in MJ's hands) qualifies as heliocentric, especially since Pippen always led the team in assists in the years they won titles.

Re Curry and the pre-Durant Warriors: Klay's 1B scorer status and Draymond's role as a distributor makes it hard to classify them as truly heliocentric. I'll grant that's the closest example, though.

Among the teams that everyone agrees were heliocentric, there haven't even been any near misses. Despite winning one game against the Lakers in '01, AI's teams were never a serious threat to win a title. The post-Shaq/pre-Gasol Lakers weren't either. Giannis didn't win until Jrue came in and took over primary distributor duties. Trae caught teams off-guard last year, and we still fell well short of a title. Luka hasn't won a playoff series yet.

I'm just skeptical that it's even feasible for any team to win a title with as much ball-dominance as Trae likes. I think that come playoff time, it's too easy to scheme against. And if it is possible, I don't think it's possible for the "sun" in that system to be as putrid on D as Trae is.

*sigh*

Edited January 17, 2022 by niremetal

[NBASupes]

25 minutes ago, niremetal said:

I like everything you're saying. But we should also remember that there has literally never been a team with a heliocentric offense that has won a title in the past 40 years.

Re MJ: I don't think a team running the triangle offense in the illegal defense era (zone D and even cheating off-ball were prohibited, which made the triangle offense's spacing extremely difficult to scheme against when the ball was in MJ's hands) qualifies as heliocentric, especially since Pippen always led the team in assists in the years they won titles.

Re Curry and the pre-Durant Warriors: Klay's 1B scorer status and Draymond's role as a distributor makes it hard to classify them as truly heliocentric. I'll grant that's the closest example, though.

Among the teams that everyone agrees were heliocentric, there haven't even been any near misses. Despite winning one game against the Lakers in '01, AI's teams were never a serious threat to win a title. The post-Shaq/pre-Gasol Lakers weren't either. Giannis didn't win until Jrue came in and took over primary distributor duties. Trae caught teams off-guard last year, and we still fell well short of a title. Luka hasn't won a playoff series yet.

I'm just skeptical that it's even feasible for any team to win a title with as much ball-dominance as Trae likes. I think that come playoff time, it's too easy to scheme against. And if it is possible, I don't think it's possible for the "sun" in that system to be as putrid on D as Trae is.

*sigh*

Bron teams have been heliocentric. Let me check real quick. Giannis has a high usage rate but his offense isn't heliocentric. Westbrook been a part of some extremely heliocentric offenses. Obviously, Allen Iverson made the finals in one. Kobe Bryant been a part of many, even his title run. 

Heliocentric offenses has won but rarely do we have them let by a PG much less undersized guard like Trae. 

I agree with you about MJ, his style has always been extreme heliocentric based.

The Warriors are an advanced verison of the Kings player movement team. Like the Kings, a big is their main ball distributor and movement is how they do a lot of their damage. The 60 Hawks also played that style but even better, they just didn't have the talent that Warriors team had.

The Lakers that won it all with Kobe and Gasol against Boston was extremely heliocentric around Kobe.

I actually think Trae is the most difficult player to play against that's heliocentric in NBA history in the playoffs. He sees every coverage during the regular season and he has that Reggie Miller where he elevates his game, his mindset is of an assassin and when he's dead eye focus, like Miller, it's a nightmare to play against. My issue is regular season Trae. I do think Luka and Trae are as good as it gets for heliocentric based offenses in the playoffs. 

[Spud2nique]

12 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Bron teams have been heliocentric. Let me check real quick. Giannis has a high usage rate but his offense isn't heliocentric. Westbrook been a part of some extremely heliocentric offenses. Obviously, Allen Iverson made the finals in one. Kobe Bryant been a part of many, even his title run. 

 

Wilt. Kareem. Shaq.

[niremetal]

30 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Bron teams have been heliocentric. Let me check real quick. Giannis has a high usage rate but his offense isn't heliocentric. Westbrook been a part of some extremely heliocentric offenses. Obviously, Allen Iverson made the finals in one. Kobe Bryant been a part of many, even his title run. 

Heliocentric offenses has won but rarely do we have them let by a PG much less undersized guard like Trae. 

I agree with you about MJ, his style has always been extreme heliocentric based.

The Warriors are an advanced verison of the Kings player movement team. Like the Kings, a big is their main ball distributor and movement is how they do a lot of their damage. The 60 Hawks also played that style but even better, they just didn't have the talent that Warriors team had.

The Lakers that won it all with Kobe and Gasol against Boston was extremely heliocentric around Kobe.

I actually think Trae is the most difficult player to play against that's heliocentric in NBA history in the playoffs. He sees every coverage during the regular season and he has that Reggie Miller where he elevates his game, his mindset is of an assassin and when he's dead eye focus, like Miller, it's a nightmare to play against. My issue is regular season Trae. I do think Luka and Trae are as good as it gets for heliocentric based offenses in the playoffs. 

I guess I don't think of the "Big Three" teams as being heliocentric, even though LeBron consistently led them in both points and assists...Wade's and Bosh's roles in the offense were so prominent that it's just hard for me to classify them that way. Same with Kyrie in Cleveland. The closest of his teams that won a title was the Lakers a couple years ago, but AD was actually their leading scorer in the RS and the playoffs. Barely, but still...to me, to be heliocentric, you at least have to lead the team in both points and assists.

Regardless, I don't think we can use LeBron as a valid comparison. He and Magic Johnson are the two easiest players in the history of the league to build contenders around, IMHO. They are so big, so strong, and so versatile that they can both play and defend all five positions (Magic proved that he could do it in the NBA Finals as a rookie). Surround them with almost any set of "good" players and they can make it work.

The Kobe/Pau Lakers...I also don't see them as truly heliocentric. Kobe's usage rate was high (~32%), but not *that* high during the three years they made deep runs. In fact, if you look at the years that Kobe's teams made the Finals (highlighted below), there's a pretty clear pattern--they are the years in the prime of his career where his usage rates were *lowest*:

And that's my point--yes, teams can win titles with players with a heliocentric-compatible skill set. But only if the offense is structured in a way that makes the teams less heliocentric in practice. That's what the triangle did for MJ and Kobe.*

Westbrook and (especially) Iverson are, in my view, the closest comparisons to Trae. And I don't think it was ever possible to build title-winning teams with either of those guys at the center of a heliocentric offense. The closest Westbrook came was when Durant was the clear lead dog in OKC.

 

* I'd actually love to see the triangle run here--bring in Sabonis and we'd have the perfect personnel for it. But that team would probably be too weak defensively to win it all.

Edited January 17, 2022 by niremetal

[niremetal]

17 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Wilt. Kareem. Shaq.

Usage stats don't go back as far as the Wilt era, but Wilt's early teams were heliocentric in the sense that their strategy was "get the ball to Wilt and everyone get TF out of the way." Of course, those teams never won titles. I don't think it's a coincidence that the first time a Wilt team won a title was the first year he averaged less than 30ppg, and where he and Hal Greer were essentially co-first-options offensively. The Lakers teams he was on were never close to being heliocentric (West actually always scored and assisted more than Wilt on those teams).

Kareem's teams were never heliocentric, at least not when they were contending...he had Big O playing point in Milwaukee and Magic in LA.

And Shaq was never close to being the focal point of a heliocentric offense (though he was actually a great passer for a big man and it would have been interesting to see a team try to run their offense through him, but instead he had Penny/Kobe/Wade/Nash).

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, niremetal said:

Usage stats don't go back as far as the Wilt era, but Wilt's early teams were heliocentric in the sense that their strategy was "get the ball to Wilt and everyone get TF out of the way." Of course, those teams never won titles. I don't think it's a coincidence that the first time a Wilt team won a title was the first year he averaged less than 30ppg, and where he and Hal Greer were essentially co-first-options offensively. The Lakers teams he was on were never close to being heliocentric (West actually always scored and assisted more than Wilt on those teams).

Kareem's teams were never heliocentric, at least not when they were contending...he had Big O playing point in Milwaukee and Magic in LA.

And Shaq was never close to being the focal point of a heliocentric offense (though he was actually a great passer for a big man and it would have been interesting to see a team try to run their offense through him, but instead he had Penny/Kobe/Wade/Nash).

We need a star ️ to pair with Trae. Has to be a legit star, can’t be borderline like JC.