Official Game Thread: Hawks at Magic

[TheTruth]

I'll say this, if Bogi truly was promised to start (assuming healthy), then what Nate is doing with he and Huerter is pretty indefensible - especially considering Nate's "can't lose your job to injury" statement. That's just icing on the proverbial crap cake.

That being said, promising to start someone - especially who isn't undeniably elite like Lebron, Curry, Jokic, Trae, Embid etc - is bad business. Too many things can happen (young players can take the next step and overtake others, injuries can sap a player's abilities, etc). And if that is really what was promised to the inarguably non-elite Bogi, then shame on them.

[Diesel]

37 minutes ago, TheTruth said:

I'll say this, if Bogi truly was promised to start (assuming healthy), then what Nate is doing with he and Huerter is pretty indefensible - especially considering Nate's "can't lose your job to injury" statement. That's just icing on the proverbial crap cake.

That being said, promising to start someone - especially who isn't undeniably elite like Lebron, Curry, Jokic, Trae, Embid etc - is bad business. Too many things can happen (young players can take the next step and overtake others, injuries can sap a player's abilities, etc). And if that is really what was promised to the inarguably non-elite Bogi, then shame on them.

The problem is if this were the case, Nate wasn't even the coach when the promise was made.   You can't hold Nate's scheme's hostage to LP's promises. 

Moreover, no GM would make that promise. 

[TheTruth]

31 minutes ago, Diesel said:

The problem is if this were the case, Nate wasn't even the coach when the promise was made.   You can't hold Nate's scheme's hostage to LP's promises. 

Moreover, no GM would make that promise. 

But Nate is here now. Doesn't make it right for Pierce either.

I'm only going by what was indicated in this thread based off Bogi's feelings on the matter. I doubt Schlenk/LP/Nate made the promise,  but woe unto them if any of them did as that would provide good reason for Bogi to feel some type of way.

[bleachkit]

1 hour ago, TheTruth said:

I'll say this, if Bogi truly was promised to start (assuming healthy), then what Nate is doing with he and Huerter is pretty indefensible - especially considering Nate's "can't lose your job to injury" statement. That's just icing on the proverbial crap cake.

That being said, promising to start someone - especially who isn't undeniably elite like Lebron, Curry, Jokic, Trae, Embid etc - is bad business. Too many things can happen (young players can take the next step and overtake others, injuries can sap a player's abilities, etc). And if that is really what was promised to the inarguably non-elite Bogi, then shame on them.

If it's not in your contract, then it's not promised. 

[marco102]

3 hours ago, kg01 said:

Oh and you don't win goodwill points as a GM by trading guys to "favorable" situations.  You win it by keeping your word so you don't have to trade guys in the first place.

Now I feel like I'm yellin at marco.  This makes me sad.  It's been a long day.  I'll be better tomorrow.

Don't feel bad. I'm rage posting to relieve stress from work. Can't take it out on the client so might as well be mad at Bogi.

[Sothron]

If you don't think Bogi wasn't told he would start here I don't know what to say. Why would he choose to come to a rebuilding team as a free agent otherwise? I mean, have you guys forgotten what this team looked like before last season?

 

[marco102]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

If you don't think Bogi wasn't told he would start here I don't know what to say. Why would he choose to come to a rebuilding team as a free agent otherwise? I mean, have you guys forgotten what this team looked like before last season?

 

That was a  lifetime  ago Soth. I can barely remember Trae telling the garden to stfu.

[Gray Mule]

Baseball banned Pete Rose for life.  Fans are now upset because he's not in the hall of fame.

If, and that's a great big if, Bogie was told that he would be a starter if he came here, what time line was used?  Was this good for one season?  Couldn't be a lifetime.  

Starting has too much pride involved.  Just look at a current Hawk who now holds the record for coming off the pine.  He has embraced this.  As fans, we put too much "wow" into starters.  Finishers should be held up as grand examples of the team.

We, the fans, are at fault.  We look up at the starters as our very best.  

[AUhawksfan]

I think we’re seeing the issues that come with youth. Nothing is promised in this league, even if someone tells you otherwise. I’ve seen starters get bench minutes and bench players get starter minutes - too much emphasis on a label and I think that comes with still being somewhat young and wanting to prove something. Guys that have been in the league longer are usually more willing to cede on things like this. Promises can be made but this league is a business and conditions are always changing. Don’t put your trust in someone’s word, put the trust in your work. Either way if Bogi feels like this isn’t the situation for him, there isn’t much we can do if he has a chip on his shoulder about it. 

[bird_dirt]

15 hours ago, terrell said:

Maybe Huerter sucks off the bench on purpose......

lol

Not gonna lie, thought did cross my mind.

Not that I necessarily think Kevin purposely is doing this, but should another player see the cause and effect here... player sucks off the bench, but plays better starting, so he gets inserted into the starting lineup... could make them want to try the same thing. 

[kg01]

10 hours ago, bleachkit said:

If it's not in your contract, then it's not promised. 

I mean, y'all are smart posters.  I'm not sure how or why this is so hard for y'all.

I'm starting to think y'all are hearing something that's not being said.  No one is saying any player is owed anything other than what's spelled out in their contract.

However ... and it's a big but (huh) ...

There are machinations at work in the league that predate any of us.  Understandings are made that must be adhered to, despite not being in writing.  And, if they aren't, the reneging team has a problem on it's hands.

No, it's not 'legal' but it's for dayum sure binding.

I feel some of this is drifting into the territory of 'you're getting paid, just do what you're told' kind of thinking.  There's no organization that operates like that.  Including the vaunted Heat, Spurs, Jazz, and any of the others that appear to have some militaristic culture.

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I'm starting to think y'all are hearing something that's not being said.

That’s a first…

 

 

……

 

 

NOOOOOOTTTTTT

[bleachkit]

4 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I mean, y'all are smart posters.  I'm not sure how or why this is so hard for y'all.

I'm starting to think y'all are hearing something that's not being said.  No one is saying any player is owed anything other than what's spelled out in their contract.

However ... and it's a big but (huh) ...

There are machinations at work in the league that predate any of us.  Understandings are made that must be adhered to, despite not being in writing.  And, if they aren't, the reneging team has a problem on it's hands.

No, it's not 'legal' but it's for dayum sure binding.

I feel some of this is drifting into the territory of 'you're getting paid, just do what you're told' kind of thinking.  There's no organization that operates like that.  Including the vaunted Heat, Spurs, Jazz, and any of the others that appear to have some militaristic culture.

Yes we should keep our word about things, even non contractural assurances. But I have a hard time believing we told him he would unequivocally be the starter no matter what. There was probably a caveat of some kind. I also feel that minutes and closing out games should be what matters. It's hard for to weigh in on things like this, because we don't know exactly what was or wasn't said. Ultimately, the coaching staff has to do what's best for the team to help us win games.

[kg01]

5 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Yes we should keep our word about things, even non contractural assurances. But I have a hard time believing we told him he would unequivocally be the starter no matter what. There was probably a caveat of some kind. I also feel that minutes and closing out games should be what matters. It's hard for to weigh in on things like this, because we don't know exactly what was or wasn't said. Ultimately, the coaching staff has to do what's best for the team to help us win games.

Agree on all counts.  I also meant to say I doubt he was told unequivocally that he'd be the starter but I'd hazard a guess it was strongly indicated.  But that also means there better be some substantial evidence that someone deserves it over him - to date, I don't see that evidence which is why this is a problem (jmho).

[AHF]

18 hours ago, Sothron said:

I also point out that this is another example of how Kevin is getting a free pass. Well, Kevin sucks donkey balls as a bench player so its ok to screw another player over to appease Kevin by making him a starter. What? Why shouldn't KEVIN be the one stuck to the bench and being criticized for playing so badly as a bench player?

You have to realize though that this isn't just about Kevin.  It is also about Bogi.  BOTH players have functioned better with Kevin starting and Bogi coming off the bench.

Here are Bogi's splits:

Ignoring Kevin completely, which would you say has been the more effective role for this player?  Coming off the bench where he is the first option, more productive, more efficient and delivering a net +10.7 +/- or starting where he is the third option, less productive, less efficient, and delivering a net -2.1 +/-?

So Bogi's failure to play well as a starter is somewhat being ignored in these comments.

Now let's compare apples to apples.  Who has been the better starter this year?

Bogi:

Kevin:

More points?  Kevin

Better scoring efficiency?  Kevin

Better +/-?  Kevin

Better rebounding?  Bogi

Better assists?  Kevin

More steals / blocks?  Kevin

Better defensive rating?  Bogi

Better offensive rating?  Kevin

So there is a pretty good case for Kevin having outperformed Bogi this season in the starting role as well.

 

This issue isn't such a slam dunk disrespect to Bogi and the issue that makes it so easy for fans to quickly conclude that we are better off with Huerter starting and Bogi being the top option with the second unit is Bogi's subpar performance when he has started.  If Bogi was clearly the better player in both roles, he would have a much more legit complaint.

[JeffS17]

38 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I mean, y'all are smart posters.  I'm not sure how or why this is so hard for y'all.

I'm starting to think y'all are hearing something that's not being said.  No one is saying any player is owed anything other than what's spelled out in their contract.

However ... and it's a big but (huh) ...

There are machinations at work in the league that predate any of us.  Understandings are made that must be adhered to, despite not being in writing.  And, if they aren't, the reneging team has a problem on it's hands.

No, it's not 'legal' but it's for dayum sure binding.

I feel some of this is drifting into the territory of 'you're getting paid, just do what you're told' kind of thinking.  There's no organization that operates like that.  Including the vaunted Heat, Spurs, Jazz, and any of the others that appear to have some militaristic culture.

To counter this, none of this were on the phone with Bogi and Schlenk, so none of us know exactly what was said.  We know that Bogi is playing better than Heurter and we know that Bogi coming off the bench makes sense for the team.  We also know that Bogi doesn't want to come off the bench (at least starting next year).  There will never be productive discussion when we're all speculating on conversations that were had behind closed doors.  

IMO the organization should be flexible as possible to make players happy but I also think the players should be flexible as possible to do what is best for the team.  I care more about the latter and some posters care more about Bogi starting, which imo is superficial so it's tough for me to get on board with that if it's not best for the team.

[AHF]

The best reasons for starting Bogi are about keeping people happy rather than basketball.  That may well be a compelling enough reason to do it anyway because that matters and if it is something that could hurt the Hawks' reputation with other free agents then that is another consideration.  

If Bogi continues to improve and ramps up like he did last year (his February play is still well short of what he did last year during his hot streak), he will force the issue and it will become a non-issue, imo.  The ball is in his hands, so to speak.

But from a basketball perspective even if Bogi is starting I'd still consider doing what I could to maximize his time as the first option with the reserve unit and Kevin's minutes with the starters based on what they have shown in those roles this season.  (Maybe Bogi is the first to rotate off the floor most games and then comes back on to lead the reserves when most of the other starters are resting, etc.)

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, bleachkit said:

Yes we should keep our word about things, even non contractural assurances. But I have a hard time believing we told him he would unequivocally be the starter no matter what. There was probably a caveat of some kind. I also feel that minutes and closing out games should be what matters. It's hard for to weigh in on things like this, because we don't know exactly what was or wasn't said. Ultimately, the coaching staff has to do what's best for the team to help us win games.

Here's my question to this thought...

What if Cam didn't leave.  And Cam had a Kobe Bryant Breakout year...  Would Bogi be looking at Nate saying... No, No, No..  You told me that I'm the starter...  Cam has to come off the bench!

I don't see a GM making that promise.   Maybe it was a foregone conclusion that considering our team (last year) that Bogi would start off starting for us.  However, situations change. 

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

Here's my question to this thought...

What if Cam didn't leave.  And Cam had a Kobe Bryant Breakout year...  Would Bogi be looking at Nate saying... No, No, No..  You told me that I'm the starter...  Cam has to come off the bench!

I don't see a GM making that promise.   Maybe it was a foregone conclusion that considering our team (last year) that Bogi would start off starting for us.  However, situations change. 

In fairness to him, he has still been overall better than Kevin this year and probably hopes to be one year away from being a free agent (after next season).  So I can definitely see him thinking both that he has earned it and that he was at least promised enough to make him expect to be the starter if he is the best performing player.  And certainly to think he should lose the role when he is playing better.

Again, the problem for him is not just the fact that Kevin has been better starting, but that Bogi has been better coming off the bench.

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

In fairness to him, he has still been overall better than Kevin this year and probably hopes to be one year away from being a free agent (after next season).  So I can definitely see him thinking both that he has earned it and that he was at least promised enough to make him expect to be the starter if he is the best performing player.  And certainly to think he should lose the role when he is playing better.

Again, the problem for him is not just the fact that Kevin has been better starting, but that Bogi has been better coming off the bench.

No doubt.

The way I see it is that he has more value off the bench because he's the first option.   He gets less shots and less consistency as a starter.   So he can be the starter but his numbers would probably drop.   I would think that would be worse for his free agency.