Official Game Thread: Hawks at Pistons

[terrell]

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5 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

How can you have the best game when you shoot 2-11 from 3, and you're getting absolutely cooked on defense? 

He has a chance to grab a defensive rebound when we were up by 1, but taps at the ball instead of grabbing it, and then fouls Cunningham on an "and 1".  Plus he fouled out because he committed a whopping 4 fouls in the 4th quarter.

As for the last foul, it was a stupid play.  He's getting torched all game, but he chooses THAT TIME to try to deny Cunningham the ball with 1.2 seconds left?  He simply had time to only catch, take maybe 1 dribble, and shoot it.  The one thing you can't do, is foul him ( or even give the perception of a foul ) 22 feet from the basket.

 

If Bogi had the best game for the Hawks, his grade is a C for that game.   

B- for offense . .  D+ for defense.

 

Why not put Delon on Cade? I mean everybody and their mother knew he was getting the ball.. I guess Nate didnt get the memo.. smdh..

 

Edited March 9, 2022 by terrell

[terrell]

29 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I don't know if we know that.  We don't know these players and we don't know how they would respond to a "Fiery Coach"...   This generation is a little different and many of them would probably just go all Ben Simmons when a fiery coach is being fiery.   I say we just start with More offensive plays.

Well they're not responding to the stand there with your arms folded routine...

And I mean find a young fiery coach who knows this generation.. Not some old geezer like Thibs.. lol

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, benhillboy said:

I’m no Ja Morant fan.  Exciting and entertaining, sure.  I’m anxious to see how his dribble driving plays in the playoffs. But he can’t shoot and has a negative career rating same as Trae.  I believe Slo Mo’s exceptional IQ and  Jones’ PG mastery drives winning more than he does.  I’m always yapping about Delon’s outstanding assist to turn and defensive plays per foul, Jones bests him in both.  And I’ve always been a  Steven Adams guy so there’s that.  I know nothing of Bane but he has the exact same rating as Ja.

Trae’s closest ratings mates (117 to 117) this season are Norman Powell, Joe Ingles, Malcolm Brogdon, Rodney McGruder, and Coby stinking White.  

At a 33% usage at 33 minutes per for his career driving a .431 winning percentage in games started simply isn’t acceptable even if the franchise wasn’t “trying to win.”  Especially this season when the average draft position of the surrounding players is 19th and the average age is closest to the median for the league at 26.4, this factoring in Lou’s old second round drafted ass.  Schlenk has done a very good job building it’s just I’ve had an issue with the foundation ever since the first half of Trae’s rookie season he was god awful.

Long story short Trae just needs to get off the damn ball some.  LeBron James and Michael Jordan had to be forced by competent coaches to learn and accept this after they put up historic numbers and earned maxes.  Problem is Trae has no value off the ball nor defending on it.  
Those type of players who dominate the ball just end up getting traded for bad packages and getting people fired.  See Damian Lilliard, Carmelo Anthony, Russell Westbrick, James Harden.  But they’re all 75th Anniversary players because numbers.  Only one great flash in the playoffs between them.  Nevermind most of their teammates hate their guts.

The 24 game sample size without him isn’t ideal, I give him a lot of credit for availability, but the +.017 winning clip difference just clearly illustrates his impact in relation to his production and upcoming salary just doesn’t add up at all.  Gearon is gonna grow tired quickly of paying a premium for a .431 clip and 26th ranking in people coming through the turnstiles.  

Truly great players have a sixth sense on how to maximize their teammates strengths and minimize their weaknesses, especially PGs.  Spamming PNR and iso at the top so you can reach your 30 and 10 does that not.  We’ve seen it gets us beat by inferior teams too much.  Why did Cade look like the 4 year guy and Trae the rook?

 

How do you ignore the fact that we do not have a legit 2nd option on this team to compliment Trae.  At best, guys like Bogi and Collins are 3rd and 4th options on offense. We also don't run a "share the ball" type of offense in which guys like to see others get easy shots.  This team feels that they have to take turns shooting the ball, if they haven't shot it after 2 or 3 minutes. 

Almost all high level winning teams have 2 guys who can be the offensive engine at any time during the game. 

• Phoenix:  Booker #1 . . Paul #2 ( that can play like a #1 in the 4th qtr ) . . top 3 offensive and defensive team
• Milwaukee:  Giannis #1 . . Middleton #2 ( who can take over like a #1 at times ) . . not a championship defense
• Philadelphia:  Embiid #1 . . Harden #2 ( who can take over like a #1 ) . . do they become a top 5 offense now?
• Chicago:  DeRozan #1 . . Lavine #2 ( who can explode like a #1 in short stretches ) . . no shot without Caruso/Ball on defense
• Boston:  Tatum #1 . . Brown #2 ( who has shown flashes of playing like a #1 ) . . championship defense, not enough offense
• Minnesota:  Towns #1  . . Ant-Man #2 ( who may be the #1 next season ) . . darkhorse Conference Finals team

 

The other type of high level winning team, are absolute beasts on defense that can get key defensive stops throughout the game, while also having a #1 that can be the offensive engine of the team.

• Memphis:  Morant #1 . . balanced scoring by committee . . top 10 defensive team . . top 5 offensive team
• Golden St:  Curry #1 . . . elite with Draymond facilitating in the lineup . . #1 defensive team in the league
• Miami:  No true #1 ( only because Butler doesn't over-exert himself offensively ) . . top 10 offensive and defensive team

 

The reason why Memphis can still play at a high level without Ja Morant, is because those dudes are a highly skilled offensive, and very physical defensive team.  Their wings are not household names, nor #1 or #2 scoring type options.  But they all have multiple skill sets that enable them to be highly efficient.  I get to watch them every night.  That team is amazing, and the biggest threat to Phoenix in the West.

 

[NBASupes]

9 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

How do you ignore the fact that we do not have a legit 2nd option on this team to compliment Trae.  At best, guys like Bogi and Collins are 3rd and 4th options on offense. We also don't run a "share the ball" type of offense in which guys like to see others get easy shots.  This team feels that they have to take turns shooting the ball, if they haven't shot it after 2 or 3 minutes. 

Almost all high level winning teams have 2 guys who can be the offensive engine at any time during the game. 

• Phoenix:  Booker #1 . . Paul #2 ( that can play like a #1 in the 4th qtr ) . . top 3 offensive and defensive team
• Milwaukee:  Giannis #1 . . Middleton #2 ( who can take over like a #1 at times ) . . not a championship defense
• Philadelphia:  Embiid #1 . . Harden #2 ( who can take over like a #1 ) . . do they become a top 5 offense now?
• Chicago:  DeRozan #1 . . Lavine #2 ( who can explode like a #1 in short stretches ) . . no shot without Caruso/Ball on defense
• Boston:  Tatum #1 . . Brown #2 ( who has shown flashes of playing like a #1 ) . . championship defense, not enough offense
• Minnesota:  Towns #1  . . Ant-Man #2 ( who may be the #1 next season ) . . darkhorse Conference Finals team

 

The other type of high level winning team, are absolute beasts on defense that can get key defensive stops throughout the game, while also having a #1 that can be the offensive engine of the team.

• Memphis:  Morant #1 . . balanced scoring by committee . . top 10 defensive team . . top 5 offensive team
• Golden St:  Curry #1 . . . elite with Draymond facilitating in the lineup . . #1 defensive team in the league
• Miami:  No true #1 ( only because Butler doesn't over-exert himself offensively ) . . top 10 offensive and defensive team

 

The reason why Memphis can still play at a high level without Ja Morant, is because those dudes are a highly skilled offensive, and very physical defensive team.  Their wings are not household names, nor #1 or #2 scoring type options.  But they all have multiple skill sets that enable them to be highly efficient.  I get to watch them every night.  That team is amazing, and the biggest threat to Phoenix in the West.

 

You can't overlook the reason why Memphis is so good is Jones can play on the ball and not dominate that rock as Trae does. Also, they have a lot of player movement players that actually fit better without Ja than with him but Ja is so good and you need him, it's almost like Toronto with and without Kawhi.

Atlanta just focused on PDS players. Memphis focused on two way players who can play on and off the ball and those players tend to shine analytics wise. 

I don't have an issue with PDS players. Everyone knows that's my preference but when you got someone like Trae, is it really the best play?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

And then you have the Hawks:  #2 offense in the league . . #27 defense in the league.  The soft nature of this team overall just kills us on the defensive end.

 

We are #2 in the league on offense almost solely because of Trae Young. That's how good he's been this season on offense ( not lately, but for most of the season ). 

He scores at a high rate, and he sets up everybody.   We're #2, despite having a legit #2 on the team, because we normally shoot the 3 ball so well.  And despite Trae having a lot of turnovers on the box score, no one else does because they mostly either catch and shoot, or catch lobs.

But because we don't have a legit #2, we become somewhat easy to defend when Trae's shot is not on, he's getting trapped, or we're not making 3s.  It bogs down because we don't have players, when push comes to shove, can either create their own offense at a high rate, or have the ability to draw fouls

• Bogi:  Decent 3 pt shooter.  Best midrange scorer of our wings, but doesn't use it.  58% of shots are 3s. 13% FT rate
• Huerter: Decent 3 pt shooter.  Midrange game slipped this season.  51% of shots are 3s.  7% FT rate
• Hunter:  Decent 3 pt shooter.  Midrange game has been crap this season.  35% of shots are 3s.  30% FT rate 

Hunter's game on offense, if it came with much more volume and efficiency, would be ideal alongside Trae.  The game he had vs Washington was about as good as it gets.  But he doesn't have the aggressive scorer mentality like Bogi does.  But Bogi doesn't have the physical attributes to enable him to be a scorer and a slasher, like De'Andre could be.

The most damning issue with our wings, is their WS/48 number. When looking at the WS/48, this is normally how it goes

• >.200:  Superstar player impact
• .150 - .199:  All-Star player impact
• .120 - .149:  Good starter/6th man impact
• .100 - .119: Average starter/Good bench player impact
• .050 - .099:  Below average starter/mediocre bench player impact
• < .050:  Negative impact lineup player

Before I list the numbers for the Hawks, here are some players who fall into these categories:

• >.200:  Superstar player impact . . . . Nikola Jokic, Joel Embiid, Chris Paul, Jarrett Allen, Jimmy Butler 
• .150 - .199:  All-Star player impact . . . DeMar Derozan, Lebron James, Steph Curry, Jayson Tatum, Ja Morant
• .120 - .149:  Good starter/6th man impact . . . Luka Doncic, Draymond Green, Jalen Brown, Khris Middleton
• .100 - .119: Average starter/Good bench player impact . . . Jaren Jackson, Jr, Kyrie Irving, LaMelo Ball, Brandon Ingram
• .050 - .099:  Below average starter/mediocre bench player impact . . . Jordan Clarkson, Cam Reddish, Julius Randle
• < .050:  Negative impact lineup player . . . Russell Westbrook, 

 

Here are your 2021 - 22 Atlanta Hawks:

• >.200:  Superstar player impact - NONE
• .150 - .199:  All-Star player impact - Okongwu ( .192 ) - Capela ( .186 ) - Young ( .161 ) - Collins ( .157 ) - Dieng ( .154 )
• .125 - .149:  Good starter/6th man impact - NONE
• .100 - .124: Average starter/Good bench player impact - Wright ( .107 ) - Gallo ( .103 )
• .050 - .099:  Below average starter/mediocre bench player impact - Bogi ( .089 ) - Huerter ( .057 )
• < .050:  Negative impact lineup player - Lou ( .048 ) - TLC ( .045 ) - Hunter ( .031 )

 

Our bigs do their job as bigs.  They rebound. They defend. They shoot a high percentage.  

Trae's inconsistency keeps him from having an overall superstar impact.

Gallo ( on offense ) and Wright ( on defense ) are solid on most nights.

But our wings score below average because of 4 major things:

• Good but not great 3 point shooting
• Low to Very low FT rates
• Low to mediocre assist rates ( for their position )
• Lack of hustle stats ( rebounding, steals, blocks )

Unlike a guy like Delon, if our main wings are not scoring the basketball, they are not factors in the game . . at all.  

 

When you see stuff like this, you wonder if Nate and his staff even pay attention to basic analytic numbers like these. If the wings aren't scoring, or if they're inconsistent, when do you make the proper lineup adjustments?  Why are your true impact players ( especially the defensive impact players ) not getting more time?

This wing group has to play with more force on both ends of the floor.  If they can't do it, or are incapable of doing it, we're more than likely road kill come playoff time . . if we get in.

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

You can't overlook the reason why Memphis is so good is Jones can play on the ball and not dominate that rock as Trae does. Also, they have a lot of player movement players that actually fit better without Ja than with him but Ja is so good and you need him, it's almost like Toronto with and without Kawhi.

Atlanta just focused on PDS players. Memphis focused on two way players who can play on and off the ball and those players tend to shine analytics wise. 

I don't have an issue with PDS players. Everyone knows that's my preference but when you got someone like Trae, is it really the best play?

 

Jones' per 36 numbers as a reserve PG are damn good:  ( 14.5 ppg - 7.3 ast - 4.2 rebs - 1.6 stls . . offensive rating of 124 ).  From a stability standpoint, that's exactly what you look for in a backup PG.  He and Ja almost never see the floor together, but they hardly miss a beat as a team. 

[NBASupes]

5 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And then you have the Hawks:  #2 offense in the league . . #27 defense in the league.  The soft nature of this team overall just kills us on the defensive end.

 

We are #2 in the league on offense almost solely because of Trae Young. That's how good he's been this season on offense ( not lately, but for most of the season ). 

He scores at a high rate, and he sets up everybody.   We're #2, despite having a legit #2 on the team, because we normally shoot the 3 ball so well.  And despite Trae having a lot of turnovers on the box score, no one else does because they mostly either catch and shoot, or catch lobs.

But because we don't have a legit #2, we become somewhat easy to defend when Trae's shot is not on, he's getting trapped, or we're not making 3s.  It bogs down because we don't have players, when push comes to shove, can either create their own offense at a high rate, or have the ability to draw fouls

• Bogi:  Decent 3 pt shooter.  Best midrange scorer of our wings, but doesn't use it.  58% of shots are 3s. 13% FT rate
• Huerter: Decent 3 pt shooter.  Midrange game slipped this season.  51% of shots are 3s.  7% FT rate
• Hunter:  Decent 3 pt shooter.  Midrange game has been crap this season.  35% of shots are 3s.  30% FT rate 

Hunter's game on offense, if it came with much more volume and efficiency, would be ideal alongside Trae.  The game he had vs Washington was about as good as it gets.  But he doesn't have the aggressive scorer mentality like Bogi does.  But Bogi doesn't have the physical attributes to enable him to be a scorer and a slasher, like De'Andre could be.

The most damning issue with our wings, is their WS/48 number. When looking at the WS/48, this is normally how it goes

• >.200:  Superstar player impact
• .150 - .199:  All-Star player impact
• .120 - .149:  Good starter/6th man impact
• .100 - .119: Average starter/Good bench player impact
• .050 - .099:  Below average starter/mediocre bench player impact
• < .050:  Negative impact lineup player

Before I list the numbers for the Hawks, here are some players who fall into these categories:

• >.200:  Superstar player impact . . . . Nikola Jokic, Joel Embiid, Chris Paul, Jarrett Allen, Jimmy Butler 
• .150 - .199:  All-Star player impact . . . DeMar Derozan, Lebron James, Steph Curry, Jayson Tatum, Ja Morant
• .120 - .149:  Good starter/6th man impact . . . Luka Doncic, Draymond Green, Jalen Brown, Khris Middleton
• .100 - .119: Average starter/Good bench player impact . . . Jaren Jackson, Jr, Kyrie Irving, LaMelo Ball, Brandon Ingram
• .050 - .099:  Below average starter/mediocre bench player impact . . . Jordan Clarkson, Cam Reddish, Julius Randle
• < .050:  Negative impact lineup player . . . Russell Westbrook, 

 

Here are your 2021 - 22 Atlanta Hawks:

• >.200:  Superstar player impact - NONE
• .150 - .199:  All-Star player impact - Okongwu ( .192 ) - Capela ( .186 ) - Young ( .161 ) - Collins ( .157 ) - Dieng ( .154 )
• .125 - .149:  Good starter/6th man impact - NONE
• .100 - .124: Average starter/Good bench player impact - Wright ( .107 ) - Gallo ( .103 )
• .050 - .099:  Below average starter/mediocre bench player impact - Bogi ( .089 ) - Huerter ( .057 )
• < .050:  Negative impact lineup player - Lou ( .048 ) - TLC ( .045 ) - Hunter ( .031 )

 

Our bigs do their job as bigs.  They rebound. They defend. They shoot a high percentage.  

Trae's inconsistency keeps him from having an overall superstar impact.

Gallo ( on offense ) and Wright ( on defense ) are solid on most nights.

But our wings score below average because of 4 major things:

• Good but not great 3 point shooting
• Low to Very low FT rates
• Low to mediocre assist rates ( for their position )
• Lack of hustle stats ( rebounding, steals, blocks )

Unlike a guy like Delon, if our main wings are not scoring the basketball, they are not factors in the game . . at all.  

 

When you see stuff like this, you wonder if Nate and his staff even pay attention to basic analytic numbers like these. If the wings aren't scoring, or if they're inconsistent, when do you make the proper lineup adjustments?  Why are your true impact players ( especially the defensive impact players ) not getting more time?

This wing group has to play with more force on both ends of the floor.  If they can't do it, or are incapable of doing it, we're more than likely road kill come playoff time . . if we get in.

 

 

I still think your boy is there biggest hindrance and he will always be for the wings. I've watched Trae every game for years and multiple times after the game for scouting purposes. Wings will never thrive with Trae like true volume touches bigs with LeBron or Luka. He's not a Bibby where he looks to get everyone consistently involved with quality looks. Bibby even had Marvin looking like he wasn't mid on offense. 

Everyone talks about how Dallas has a worse GM than Atlanta but I never see them outside of the Porzingis trade trying to build a team that doesn't fit around Luka. Everything is always about what fits best around Luka. I really don't believe that's what we do. 

As much as I loved the Jalen Johnson pick, is he really ever going to be a great fit around Trae, possibly but he has to do all of the work to fit him. What if we drafted Herbert Jones, that might have been a much better move for us. He doesn't require touches, he plays tremendous defense, he is always communicating, he got versatility and good defensive size. 

We keep forgetting, we won a lot of games when our wing rotation was Solo, Snell, and Bogi. Yes, those three players. Kev was out at times. Dre and Cam was out the whole 2nd half of the year and we won games. Lots of games. I know for a fact, that we would have been exposed to a degree this year regardless of our wing rotation, I still hold the thought that it's not that important to really improve it. We just need one PDS guy and a couple knockdown guys who defend, smart with great BBIQ, can play on and off the ball, and just constantly involve even without touches and when they get touches, they knock down open shots.

Until we upgrade the bigs, I don't see how we really truly improve. Capela 30 wins, JC 35 wins. Okongwu is impressive and closing in on 25 wins, still worth 20 wins but for a 2nd year kid that's a big man, that's extremely difficult to do. That's not gonna cut it. We need 45-50 win guys. JC and Sap are both worth 35 wins but we need a 45 win prime rib Horford. We need a 45 win guy. The best bigs in this league are worth 55 wins, Embiid, Jokic, and Giannis. But we need a Gobert (50), Sabonis since the trade jumped from 35 wins to 45 wins which I keep harping on, that SAC will be for real next season with more chemistry. KAT jumped to 40 wins. Old ass Horford jumped to 35 wins again. We gotta get impactful bigs.

Capela had a rare year last year. He jumped from 20 wins to 45 wins and Atlanta success was off the charts but he's back to his normal 30 outside of that CP3 year where he jumped to 45 in that season as well. Expecting Capela to be more than 30 wins is pretty unrealistic. 

Expecting gradually improving JC to make the jump is unrealistic. He's actually been on the decline of late and is on pace for 30 wins. This speaks to our struggles. Three 30 win players with a budding 20 win kid just doesn't cut it. Until late, Bogi was a negative player this year, he stepped it up big massively since his recent move to the bench.

This team just ain't good enough. Not enough quality players. Too many talented players like Dre who simply don't fit the style or scheme and Trae is way too limited in the regular season to play so many minutes. He needs to be better than this. We know he's not Iso Joe from his great games and playoffs runs but when Iso Joe is bad, he is nowhere close to this bad. Trae is awful when he's bad.

[terrell]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I still think your boy is there biggest hindrance and he will always be for the wings. I've watched Trae every game for years and multiple times after the game for scouting purposes. Wings will never thrive with Trae like true volume touches bigs with LeBron or Luka. He's not a Bibby where he looks to get everyone consistently involved with quality looks. Bibby even had Marvin looking like he wasn't mid on offense. 

Everyone talks about how Dallas has a worse GM than Atlanta but I never see them outside of the Porzingis trade trying to build a team that doesn't fit around Luka. Everything is always about what fits best around Luka. I really don't believe that's what we do. 

As much as I loved the Jalen Johnson pick, is he really ever going to be a great fit around Trae, possibly but he has to do all of the work to fit him. What if we drafted Herbert Jones, that might have been a much better move for us. He doesn't require touches, he plays tremendous defense, he is always communicating, he got versatility and good defensive size. 

We keep forgetting, we won a lot of games when our wing rotation was Solo, Snell, and Bogi. Yes, those three players. Kev was out at times. Dre and Cam was out the whole 2nd half of the year and we won games. Lots of games. I know for a fact, that we would have been exposed to a degree this year regardless of our wing rotation, I still hold the thought that it's not that important to really improve it. We just need one PDS guy and a couple knockdown guys who defend, smart with great BBIQ, can play on and off the ball, and just constantly involve even without touches and when they get touches, they knock down open shots.

Until we upgrade the bigs, I don't see how we really truly improve. Capela 30 wins, JC 35 wins. Okongwu is impressive and closing in on 25 wins, still worth 20 wins but for a 2nd year kid that's a big man, that's extremely difficult to do. That's not gonna cut it. We need 45-50 win guys. JC and Sap are both worth 35 wins but we need a 45 win prime rib Horford. We need a 45 win guy. The best bigs in this league are worth 55 wins, Embiid, Jokic, and Giannis. But we need a Gobert (50), Sabonis since the trade jumped from 35 wins to 45 wins which I keep harping on, that SAC will be for real next season with more chemistry. KAT jumped to 40 wins. Old ass Horford jumped to 35 wins again. We gotta get impactful bigs.

Capela had a rare year last year. He jumped from 20 wins to 45 wins and Atlanta success was off the charts but he's back to his normal 30 outside of that CP3 year where he jumped to 45 in that season as well. Expecting Capela to be more than 30 wins is pretty unrealistic. 

Expecting gradually improving JC to make the jump is unrealistic. He's actually been on the decline of late and is on pace for 30 wins. This speaks to our struggles. Three 30 win players with a budding 20 win kid just doesn't cut it. Until late, Bogi was a negative player this year, he stepped it up big massively since his recent move to the bench.

This team just ain't good enough. Not enough quality players. Too many talented players like Dre who simply don't fit the style or scheme and Trae is way too limited in the regular season to play so many minutes. He needs to be better than this. We know he's not Iso Joe from his great games and playoffs runs but when Iso Joe is bad, he is nowhere close to this bad. Trae is awful when he's bad.

Like I said, the Hawks are better if Trae doesnt play at all, than if he's on the court and playing like ass.. When he's bad, its pretty much a guaranteed L. Especially when you add that to his non existent defense.....He's either really great or Turrible.. No in-between.....And his 4th qtr decision making this year has been shaky as hell.. The whole team actually.. But he's the head of the snake...Hopefully he can hit some shots early tonight and get going.. His shooting has been abysmal this month....

Edited March 9, 2022 by terrell

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I still think your boy is there biggest hindrance and he will always be for the wings. I've watched Trae every game for years and multiple times after the game for scouting purposes. Wings will never thrive with Trae like true volume touches bigs with LeBron or Luka. He's not a Bibby where he looks to get everyone consistently involved with quality looks. Bibby even had Marvin looking like he wasn't mid on offense. 

Everyone talks about how Dallas has a worse GM than Atlanta but I never see them outside of the Porzingis trade trying to build a team that doesn't fit around Luka. Everything is always about what fits best around Luka. I really don't believe that's what we do. 

As much as I loved the Jalen Johnson pick, is he really ever going to be a great fit around Trae, possibly but he has to do all of the work to fit him. What if we drafted Herbert Jones, that might have been a much better move for us. He doesn't require touches, he plays tremendous defense, he is always communicating, he got versatility and good defensive size. 

We keep forgetting, we won a lot of games when our wing rotation was Solo, Snell, and Bogi. Yes, those three players. Kev was out at times. Dre and Cam was out the whole 2nd half of the year and we won games. Lots of games. I know for a fact, that we would have been exposed to a degree this year regardless of our wing rotation, I still hold the thought that it's not that important to really improve it. We just need one PDS guy and a couple knockdown guys who defend, smart with great BBIQ, can play on and off the ball, and just constantly involve even without touches and when they get touches, they knock down open shots.

Until we upgrade the bigs, I don't see how we really truly improve. Capela 30 wins, JC 35 wins. Okongwu is impressive and closing in on 25 wins, still worth 20 wins but for a 2nd year kid that's a big man, that's extremely difficult to do. That's not gonna cut it. We need 45-50 win guys. JC and Sap are both worth 35 wins but we need a 45 win prime rib Horford. We need a 45 win guy. The best bigs in this league are worth 55 wins, Embiid, Jokic, and Giannis. But we need a Gobert (50), Sabonis since the trade jumped from 35 wins to 45 wins which I keep harping on, that SAC will be for real next season with more chemistry. KAT jumped to 40 wins. Old ass Horford jumped to 35 wins again. We gotta get impactful bigs.

Capela had a rare year last year. He jumped from 20 wins to 45 wins and Atlanta success was off the charts but he's back to his normal 30 outside of that CP3 year where he jumped to 45 in that season as well. Expecting Capela to be more than 30 wins is pretty unrealistic. 

Expecting gradually improving JC to make the jump is unrealistic. He's actually been on the decline of late and is on pace for 30 wins. This speaks to our struggles. Three 30 win players with a budding 20 win kid just doesn't cut it. Until late, Bogi was a negative player this year, he stepped it up big massively since his recent move to the bench.

This team just ain't good enough. Not enough quality players. Too many talented players like Dre who simply don't fit the style or scheme and Trae is way too limited in the regular season to play so many minutes. He needs to be better than this. We know he's not Iso Joe from his great games and playoffs runs but when Iso Joe is bad, he is nowhere close to this bad. Trae is awful when he's bad.

 

Our bigs are not the issue.  Our wings are.   They are the biggest part of the team that needs upgrading. 

So what can Trae Young do, to make our wings better?  Or what do the wings have to do, to make themselves better?

[NBASupes]

37 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Our bigs are not the issue.  Our wings are.   They are the biggest part of the team that needs upgrading. 

So what can Trae Young do, to make our wings better?  Or what do the wings have to do, to make themselves better?

I completely disagree. Wings will never be too relevant to Trae Young manned teams. Bigs are extremely relevant. Get the best of those to get the best of us.

Shit, there is a lot of things. Stop ball hogging, run a f***ing offense, find out where your wings want there offense like Bibby and CP3 do. Stop wasting possessions with mindless BBIQ, stop spamming shit because it benefits you and play to win games but that's not Trae. It's like asking Bron to be Magic Johnson, it will NEVER happen. 

Trae is gonna do Trae. We just need to build around that. 

Edited March 9, 2022 by NBASupes

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Our bigs are not the issue.  Our wings are.   They are the biggest part of the team that needs upgrading. 

So what can Trae Young do, to make our wings better?  Or what do the wings have to do, to make themselves better?

In my humble opinion, I agree with you that our wings are the problem... and here is what I perceive as the truth..

We need wings who can play defense and knock down 3 pters.    When Gallo and Bogi are on, we are winning... I would suggest that that's the case.   The problem is that we need either Kev or Hunter to step up... Both Kev and Hunter are below 38% from the 3 pt line.  But even at the high 30 clip, they still don't play good enough defense to make their above average shooting to stick.  This is why we're inconsistent. 

I recently thought about how do we improve our Bigs ... Supe...

I said, OK, what if we could get Phoenix to bite on a Clint for Ayton deal.    That alone won't change our fortunes (IMHO).   I think we'd still have the problem on needing scoring from the 2-4 position.   Even if Bogi is playing and Putting up good nimbers.  The only way it works is if we did that deal and then traded OO/Hunter for Harrison Barnes... or  Brandon Ingram or something that gets us a Wing who can be trusted to score at a higher clip than what we have now. 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

12 minutes ago, terrell said:

Like I said, the Hawks are better if Trae doesnt play at all, than if he's on the court and playing like ass.. When he's bad, its pretty much a guaranteed L. Especially when you add that to his non existent defense.....He's either really great or Turrible.. No in-between.....And his 4th qtr decision making this year has been shaky as hell.. The whole team actually.. But he's the head of the snake...Hopefully he can hit some shots early tonight and get going.. His shooting has been abysmal this month....

 

This is an indication that lately, he's been inconsistent . . and his teammates can't adequately cover the slack when he is off.  This is the drum that @JayBirdHawk has been saying all year.  When Trae is off, who steps up?

Hunter did it against the Wizards.  Bogi did it vs Detroit in the 1st half, but faltered in the 4th quarter.   Speaking of that, Trae only took 3 shots in the 4th vs Detroit, which is highly uncharacteristic of him.  But that was mainly due Bagley's defense up top when they switched off the pick and roll.

But if the Hawks live and die by Trae, that means the pieces around him need to be upgraded. If the guys consistently prove that they play better without Trae than with Trae, that's when I'll start to believe that Trae is the issue.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I completely disagree. Wings will never be too relevant to Trae Young manned teams. Bigs are extremely relevant. Get the best of those to get the best of us.

Shit, there is a lot of things. Stop ball hogging, run a f***ing offense, find out where your wings want there offense like Bibby and CP3 do. Stop wasting possessions with mindless BBIQ, stop spamming shit because it benefits you and play to win games but that's not Trae. It's like asking Bron to be Magic Johnson, it will NEVER happen. 

Trae is gonna do Trae. We just need to build around that. 

 

So why does Kevin Huerter tend to play better alongside Trae, than say, De'Andre Hunter?

You can't consistently say that Trae doesn't get our wings involved, when he gets them wide open shots.  He gets them a lot of wide open shots.  They don't cut to the basket, so they don't get anything going downhill toward the basket.  They always are camped out at the 3 point line.  He's the guy getting them the ball via assists.

Kevin, when he puts his mind to it, can at least get his offense going in the midrange.  Bogi can do it too, but would rather shoot a tough 3.  And Hunter could be the be the best of them all if he were just more aggressive.   At some point, the deficiencies of the wings have to be put on them, and not the PG or the center supposedly clogging up the paint.

What Trae really needs, is an athletic wing that can shoot AND cut to the basket to score easy buckets.  If we had developed Cam properly, instead of sticking him in a corner, maybe he could've been that guy.

But you talk as if Joe Johnson wouldn't have been Joe Johnson, if he played alongside a PG like Trae.  ISO Joe would've also been "Catch and Shoot Joe".  And we could've deferred to him as a secondary facilitator that could get himself shots, and Trae open looks.

[Spud2nique]

3 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

And Hunter could be the be the best of them all if he were just more aggressive. 

Yup, more aggressive as he has been the last 3 games.

 

3 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

What Trae really needs, is an athletic wing that can shoot AND cut to the basket to score easy buckets.  If we had developed Cam properly, instead of sticking him in a corner, maybe he could've been that guy.

I agree but Cam didn’t want to be here but that’s prolly cuz we stuck him in the corner.

 

4 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

ISO Joe would've also been "Catch and Shoot Joe". 

Perfect for us now, he came a decade and a half soon, I mean to pair with Trae.

[NBASupes]

50 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

So why does Kevin Huerter tend to play better alongside Trae, than say, De'Andre Hunter?

You can't consistently say that Trae doesn't get our wings involved, when he gets them wide open shots.  He gets them a lot of wide open shots.  They don't cut to the basket, so they don't get anything going downhill toward the basket.  They always are camped out at the 3 point line.  He's the guy getting them the ball via assists.

Kevin, when he puts his mind to it, can at least get his offense going in the midrange.  Bogi can do it too, but would rather shoot a tough 3.  And Hunter could be the be the best of them all if he were just more aggressive.   At some point, the deficiencies of the wings have to be put on them, and not the PG or the center supposedly clogging up the paint.

What Trae really needs, is an athletic wing that can shoot AND cut to the basket to score easy buckets.  If we had developed Cam properly, instead of sticking him in a corner, maybe he could've been that guy.

But you talk as if Joe Johnson wouldn't have been Joe Johnson, if he played alongside a PG like Trae.  ISO Joe would've also been "Catch and Shoot Joe".  And we could've deferred to him as a secondary facilitator that could get himself shots, and Trae open looks.

Hunter is a mid volume movement player who stops the ball with some PDS qualities offensively.

Kevin is a pure PDS player offensively. 

They aren't the same. Hunter generally needs rhythm, Kev doesn't always need rhythm to get going. We seen it time and time again.

I can consistently say that he doesn't consistently get our wings involved. I watch every game. He only gets them going when they are catching fire or he's off. Otherwise, he's sticking to the script that best fits his style of play. 

How many times I have to say wide open shots aren't exactly great shots. Guys need to be in rhythm. Watch Utah. Players always moving, getting touches, knowing when they give it, it's just as likely they will get it back like the 60 win Hawks. Watch us, Dre might get it in a undesirable spot, pass it and never get it back again. I keep saying this and it goes in one ear and out the other with you but real life is not 2k. Quality touches and involvement matters for many players. 

They aren't comfortable,  none of them are. Only Bogi is and that's because he has unshakable confidence. The others don't, they have to be comfortable. Watch how comfortable everyone in PHX is when playing with CP3. Watch his OKC tape as well. 

Trae ain't gonna get what he needs because it's too hard to find. Finding a low touches guy, in a ball movement system where the ball generally sticks to Trae's hands, and he's expected to be a sharp and cut off the ball? You basically asking for a combo of Snell, Solo, and Derrick Jones. Man, good luck with that. 

To me, it's a waste of time. Get someone who can shoot just enough with size and can defend like Otto Porter Jr and I'll be happy. Even he will dislike playing with Trae. Trae don't get you into rhythm as a wing. 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

But you talk as if Joe Johnson wouldn't have been Joe Johnson, if he played alongside a PG like Trae.  ISO Joe would've also been "Catch and Shoot Joe".  And we could've deferred to him as a secondary facilitator that could get himself shots, and Trae open looks.

That is who he was in Phoenix and he was pretty great:

[Diesel]

I missed the early definition.   What is PDS?

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I missed the early definition.   What is PDS?

Pass, dribble, shoot

[kg01]

27 minutes ago, AHF said:

Pass, dribble, shoot

Oh, so it's not 'pretty d*mn stupid'?

Dang, I gotta cancel those t-shirts.

[JayBirdHawk]

4 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

At some point, the deficiencies of the wings have to be put on them, and not the PG or the center supposedly clogging up the paint.

I said before....Maybe, just maybe....they just aren't good enough