The Per 36s....

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

@AHF

Hunter rebounding adj % is higher than JC

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/rebounding/?sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=-1

This is the Al Horford conundrum where he's defending in space, he is not around many rebounds 

You mean adjusted reb Chance %?

Uhm.. Yeah.. that doesn't help your argument.... at all. 

[NBASupes]

19 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You mean adjusted reb Chance %?

Uhm.. Yeah.. that doesn't help your argument.... at all. 

If you are defending on the perimeter, you aren't going to be around many boards. 

[NBASupes]

28 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Not true.

Trae has the best Gravity in the League.   When Trae touches the ball, defenses shift from the wings and lean towards Trae.   Our offense is based on that.  PNR & The Lob & Trae passing out to wide open wings.   The problem is that our wings can't hit wide open shots consistently.  Not only that.. They won't blow by a defender running out and hit a runner.   How is this Trae's fault?

The game vs Portland was a prime example.. Our wings had several open looks from three.  Missed most of them.   Trae should have had 45 points and 20 assists.. but these wings can't hit open shots consistently. 

 

Trae has tremendous gravity. That part is true, that said, the NBA is NOT a video game. Guys need quality touches within the game. Not saying Trae never gives those because tonight, all of these guys were getting both quality touches as well as some open looks but they couldn't convert. In general, especially against good defenses, I've seen guys go 6 mins without one quality touch. That's not good at all. 

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Trae has tremendous gravity. That part is true, that said, the NBA is NOT a video game. Guys need quality touches within the game. Not saying Trae never gives those because tonight, all of these guys were getting both quality touches as well as some open looks but they couldn't convert. In general, especially against good defenses, I've seen guys go 6 mins without one quality touch. That's not good at all. 

Honestly, I think the only guy who hasn't benefited from Trae's gravity and dishes this season is JC  and maybe Delon (I think that's Delon's mentality though).   For whatever reason JC doesn't get too many touches.  However, Trae feeds Kev, Bogi, and Hunter plenty.   They just don't always convert...   

[NBASupes]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

Honestly, I think the only guy who hasn't benefited from Trae's gravity and dishes this season is JC  and maybe Delon (I think that's Delon's mentality though).   For whatever reason JC doesn't get too many touches.  However, Trae feeds Kev, Bogi, and Hunter plenty.   They just don't always convert...   

JC always benefits and Delon like Hunter need to be on a completely different team in a completely different scheme.

All of our wings would have way more success in a Bud system, Quin Snyder system, or Kerr system than LP or Nate Dogg system. That said, Trae heliocentric style needs a system of his own which is the case for guys like Bron, Luka, Harden, and obviously Trae.

I really don't think you understand when I talk about quality touches. If you played at a high level, you know exactly what I am talking about. Its touches you can do something with and within rhythm. Open 3s especially when you rarely get touches are not quality touches. Some vets who are pros have learn to excel in those situations like Tony Snell but its extremely difficult to do and to find someone who can do that and defend at a high level is extremely difficult to do. 

There is a reason why Kuzma always struggled with Bron but looks so good right now in Washington. 

NBA players as a collective are shooting open 3s at 34%, it's not that high of a percentage. That's why everything matters. Is the said player within rhythm, etc. 

Edited March 15, 2022 by NBASupes

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, NBASupes said:

JC always benefits and Delon like Hunter need to be on a completely different team in a completely different scheme.

All of our wings would have way more success in a Bud system, Quin Snyder system, or Kerr system than LP or Nate Dogg system. That said, Trae heliocentric style needs a system of his own which is the case for guys like Bron, Luka, Harden, and obviously Trae.

I really don't think you understand when I talk about quality touches. If you played at a high level, you know exactly what I am talking about. Its touches you can do something with and within rhythm. Open 3s especially when you rarely get touches are not quality touches. Some vets who are pros have learn to excel in those situations like Tony Snell but its extremely difficult to do and to find someone who can do that and defend at a high level is extremely difficult to do. 

There is a reason why Kuzma always struggled with Bron but looks so good right now in Washington. 

NBA players as a collective are shooting open 3s at 34%, it's not that high of a percentage. That's why everything matters. Is the said player within rhythm, etc. 

I hear what you're saying about quality touches...  However, how much room service does these guys need.  Sorry but they should know by now that they will eat if they can either hit the three or put the ball on the floor.  Where I agree with you is that we do not have specially run plays for these guys... and they do have deficiencies... For instance, I cringe everytime Hunter puts the ball on the floor.   He would probably be a designated slasher with slasher plays called for him under another coach.  Not Bud's though.  Have you forgotten everybody on the three point line offense with Bud?  He still runs that.  Now guys like Portis and Grayson Allen are designated three point shooters.   The only slashers are Giannis and Holiday.  And Hunter would be a kin to a guy like Middleton.   You ever watch what Middleton does in Bud's system... He's a designated 3 pt shooter too and at times, he will put the ball on the floor and slash.

Bucks set up with Giannis at the top of the key... if he gets the ball he makes the decision to either drive or pass off.  If he passes off, they are going to the corner curl... where the 5 is basically setting a screen to free up the 2 for a catch and shoot opportunity at the three point line or the 5 is setting a screen for the 2 coming from the 3 pt line.   In all of that, the 3 is at the 3pt line opposite side.   You should remember that play because when we played them... they ran it with a moving screen (thanks Ibaka).   That game was marred with bad officiating... mainly the Giannis Shoulder plow... and the Ibaka moving screen... and of course dirty Grayson Allen. 

Point is.. Hunter would have to still do the same thing under Bud.  Middleton is just really good at it. 

I agree with you that Kuzma struggled playing with Bron.  So do most PFs.  Bosh, Love, etc.. they all have to change to fit in with Bron.   Because Bron perfers the lane cleared out so that he can work and most of the time that moves the 4 to the outside.   Cleveland thought it would help Love being that he's a stretch 4.. but in Minny Love worked the lane too.  You saw Love's rebounds dip drastically and his scoring took a dip because the King needs open lines.   Kuzma also struggled because they brought in AD and Kuzma had to go to the bench. 

 

 

 

[macdaddy]

I just don't know about the quality touches argument.   I just see Huerter and Hunter continually pass the ball if they are even lightly guarded.   Kevin will drive away from the basket if there is any resistance and Hunter will straight line drive into a block half the time.  

Maybe this is a result of lack of quality of touches but it just seems to be like they are lacking confidence in general.   There is no aggression on the offensive end from either of them and we've seen it from them in short spurts in the past.    

Honestly i think you could say that they are too used to Trae making it easy for them but maybe I'm just missing the nuance.  It's also extremely likely that this is who they are and we're wishing they were something more.   It's hard for me to imagine that Huerter/Hunter are the starting wings on a Hawks championship team but I hope i'm wrong.   

[Atlantaholic]

19 hours ago, Diesel said:

In looking at stats for the other Trae thread (MVP).. I ran across something very telling. 

Over the last 15 games.. Hunter is hitting 10 to 14 ft shots at a 16% clip... Same shots about the same attempts, Huerter is nailing at 58%.  However, 15-19...  Hunter is about 56% and Huerter is 31%.

 

 

 

Small samples on those 15-19 shots, but not surprising. We all know Huerter's spots. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

I just don't know about the quality touches argument.   I just see Huerter and Hunter continually pass the ball if they are even lightly guarded.   Kevin will drive away from the basket if there is any resistance and Hunter will straight line drive into a block half the time.  

Maybe this is a result of lack of quality of touches but it just seems to be like they are lacking confidence in general.   There is no aggression on the offensive end from either of them and we've seen it from them in short spurts in the past.    

Honestly i think you could say that they are too used to Trae making it easy for them but maybe I'm just missing the nuance.  It's also extremely likely that this is who they are and we're wishing they were something more.   It's hard for me to imagine that Huerter/Hunter are the starting wings on a Hawks championship team but I hope i'm wrong.   

This.

I'm mystified why Huerter tends to avoid contact.  It also kills me why Hunter (sometimes) is glued to the three point line.   Last night, the ball swings to Hunter... He had a clear path to the basket...  He settled for the three.  What?  Missed.

They are all in the Bogi school. where the motto is Keep Chucking. 

I believe Huerter started realizing that he didn't have it so he started putting the ball on the floor a little.   But what must you do to get them to be more aggressive??

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

I'm mystified why Huerter tends to avoid contact. 

Just not natural

 

 

[AHF]

17 hours ago, NBASupes said:

@AHF

Hunter rebounding adj % is higher than JC

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/rebounding/?sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=-1

This is the Al Horford conundrum where he's defending in space, he is not around many rebounds 

That stat is of pretty limited value, imo, unless you think Lou Williams is arguably the team's second best rebounder (behind Gallo of course).  I do think most of us are disappointed in JC's lack of production there this year but even by that metric Hunter is behind Bogi, Lou, Huerter, and Trae so it basically says that Hunter stinks at rebounding too.

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Just not natural

 

 

He needs a sports psychiatrist.  I think it's mental.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 3/14/2022 at 11:33 AM, NBASupes said:

Wake me when Hunter or any big wing gets touches on Trae lead teams

 

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/touches/?sort=TEAM_ABBREVIATION&dir=-1

 

Hunter is one of the better per touches players in the NBA. Can't wait till he leaves, blows up so I can continue to say told you dumbasses so

 

Hunter is a coaster.  He coasts on offense and defense.  He doesn't actively put himself in position to get the ball, nor does he actively go after the ball on defense.

That's why analytics hate him. 

He doesn't have a "motor".

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Looks like Kyrie is going to take Trae's Player of the Week away from him . . . even if he only gets to play in 1 game this week.

[hawkman]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Looks like Kyrie is going to take Trae's Player of the Week away from him . . . even if he only gets to play in 1 game this week.

Nah. Kyrie is still on the "outs" with the NBA right now.

[thecampster]

On 3/14/2022 at 10:43 PM, NBASupes said:

If you are defending on the perimeter, you aren't going to be around many boards. 

[AHF]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

You'll note that that statistic inflates the rebounding prowess of perimeter players (my guess is because it is only looking at the % on eligible plays and rebounds that go to perimeter defending players tend to be less contested) so I'd say best to compare apples to apples with our other perimeter defenders, no?  Then we look and see Hunter's rebound % is lower than Bogi, Lou, Huerter, and Trae so the excuse of "he doesn't rebound well because he defends on the perimeter" seems to deflate a bit.  It isn't just under this statistic either.  He is also behind Bogi, Huerter and Trae on a per minute basis.  FWIW, this is the case both with defensive rebounds and with total rebounds. 

The answer to "why can't Hunter outperform Trae Young  on the boards on either a per minute or % basis?" doesn't have a clear answer to me.  One of these guys should be a much better rebounder than the other one by at least one of those two metrics:

[Diesel]

Rebounding is about effort and position. 

I don't think Hunter is more out of position than any of our other players who defend the perimeter.   So the answer has to be effort. 

Hunter is just not an effort guy.