Best possible offseason for all ready to make moves teams in the NBA

[JeffS17]

3 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I can tell you why.  It's because big questions keep going unanswered about the idea.  The biggest being:

Last 10-20 years of NBA ball says we need an elite scoring wing to contend.   Gobert's salary makes acquiring someone like that difficult.   Hell it makes acquiring a "defending wing that has serviceable ball handling/creation" difficult.   You're talking Bogi + defense.  Look at what we had to pay to get Bogi.

When was the last time a team with a defensive center as one of the highest paid players on the team been to the finals?

 

 

I see Gobert as a unicorn and one of, if not the best defenders in the past 20 years.  You guys see him as a taller Capela.  That's the root difference here.  When was the last time a ball-dominantm worst-in-class defender, barely 6'0" guard, won a chip?  The answer is never.  Trae is not your standard superstar to build around and that is why I do not subscribe to the standard blueprint of a championship team.  And by the way, I'm not saying we cannot win with Trae as our centerpiece, but I think it requires a more creative roster build than going and finding star wings, which is why I like Gobert's fit with Trae.

[ShooterSays]

Insiders.....care to share any tidbits or hints from these internal conversations of yours?

What would y'all think about a line-up of -

Trae/Lavine/Hunter/Simmons/Turner

[macdaddy]

8 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I see Gobert as a unicorn and one of, if not the best defenders in the past 20 years.  You guys see him as a taller Capela.  That's the root difference here.  When was the last time a ball-dominantm worst-in-class defender, barely 6'0" guard, won a chip?  The answer is never.  Trae is not your standard superstar to build around and that is why I do not subscribe to the standard blueprint of a championship team.  And by the way, I'm not saying we cannot win with Trae as our centerpiece, but I think it requires a more creative roster build than going and finding star wings, which is why I like Gobert's fit with Trae.

That's fine.   You're envisioning something totally unique.  I can live with the answer i just don't think it'll work.  

But i also think it's not necessary.   Ball dominant, worst in class defender, barely 6'? Are we talking about Donovan Mitchell? 

Is Trae ball dominant.  Sure i guess.  Look what happens when he isn't?   We score 80 points in a playoff game.  He's ball dominant because he's surrounded by guys who can't throw it back to him fast enough if a defender is within 3 feet.    

Trae will be even better with another great scorer next to him.   He's not that unique other than being probably the best passing PG to come along since CP3.  We can try reinventing the wheel but to me that's a riskier path.   Add a scorer.   Look how Luka is doing with Brunson.  Look how Lavine's life changed with just Derozan.  Pels add CJ Mccollum to BI and two guys who were considered no D chuckers start winning and are playing the best team in the West really tough in the playoffs.   

There are no legit contenders in this league that don't have at least two elite offensive players.  

 

[Final_quest]

I am at least warm on the idea of bringing in Gobert.  Mainly don’t see many other impact players reasonably available.  
When I watched Utah play, I didn’t see them able to screen and roll with Gobert like Trae could.  That is a wide body that gives Trae a lot of space to work with on screens.  Plus a bigger target.  If they put in a smaller player to neutralize Gobert on defense and spread the floor, Trae would kill a smaller guy getting Gobert dunks.  
Still opportunity to bring in a shot creator to play on the wing.  
 

Ayton might be a better option, but I can make a case for Gobert.  

[AtLaS]

My issue with Gobert is he can be schemed against.  Teams go small against the Jazz in the playoffs and put a shooter at the 5, and Gobert can't guard the perimeter at all, he has the lateral quickness of a turtle.  It's one of the biggest reasons for Utah's struggles in the playoffs every year.

[thecampster]

13 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

That's fine.   You're envisioning something totally unique.  I can live with the answer i just don't think it'll work.  

But i also think it's not necessary.   Ball dominant, worst in class defender, barely 6'? Are we talking about Donovan Mitchell? 

Is Trae ball dominant.  Sure i guess.  Look what happens when he isn't?   We score 80 points in a playoff game.  He's ball dominant because he's surrounded by guys who can't throw it back to him fast enough if a defender is within 3 feet.    

Trae will be even better with another great scorer next to him.   He's not that unique other than being probably the best passing PG to come along since CP3.  We can try reinventing the wheel but to me that's a riskier path.   Add a scorer.   Look how Luka is doing with Brunson.  Look how Lavine's life changed with just Derozan.  Pels add CJ Mccollum to BI and two guys who were considered no D chuckers start winning and are playing the best team in the West really tough in the playoffs.   

There are no legit contenders in this league that don't have at least two elite offensive players.  

 

So there is one thing you may not be thinking of.  You're saying Gobert vs Ayton. It is never that simple.

The cost to acquire Gobert < the cost to acquire Ayton....for the very reasons you point out. It isn't just a matter of cap but also a matter of cap + assets since most of this maneuvering will be done via trade, not signing.  So the less you give up to swap out Clint for a more imposing center, the more you have in capital to go after another team's wing. With the cap going up and all of the players we're talking about having fixed salaries for a while it is safe to say a trade that lands us in the LT will probably only land us in the LT for 1-2 years, not cap hell.  

Also, part of this scenario is A) the money we're paying Lou and B) the expected money we pay an incoming mid level 1st round pick. Any player at 16 isn't expected to contribute right away, so I can see it being moved as part of the deal. That's another $3.5 million in salary you may not be accounting for as is Lou's 5 mil.  The get Ayton and 1 other star concept is built around consolidation of salaries to a set 10 man rotation and then vet mins for people trying to catch on for a ring chase. Our current build is 1 Star 4 solid starters.  The new build will be 3 stars, 1 solid, 1 take a chance starter and then ring chasing vets on the bench.  There is money for that, the question is which build. Which new center (or elite PF) and which wing.  Bringing in 2, 4 outgoing....fill in the other 2 slots with serviceable vets.

Edited April 26, 2022 by thecampster

[macdaddy]

36 minutes ago, thecampster said:

So there is one thing you may not be thinking of.  You're saying Gobert vs Ayton. It is never that simple.

The cost to acquire Gobert < the cost to acquire Ayton....for the very reasons you point out. It isn't just a matter of cap but also a matter of cap + assets since most of this maneuvering will be done via trade, not signing.  So the less you give up to swap out Clint for a more imposing center, the more you have in capital to go after another team's wing. With the cap going up and all of the players we're talking about having fixed salaries for a while it is safe to say a trade that lands us in the LT will probably only land us in the LT for 1-2 years, not cap hell.  

Also, part of this scenario is A) the money we're paying Lou and B) the expected money we pay an incoming mid level 1st round pick. Any player at 16 isn't expected to contribute right away, so I can see it being moved as part of the deal. That's another $3.5 million in salary you may not be accounting for as is Lou's 5 mil.  The get Ayton and 1 other star concept is built around consolidation of salaries to a set 10 man rotation and then vet mins for people trying to catch on for a ring chase. Our current build is 1 Star 4 solid starters.  The new build will be 3 stars, 1 solid, 1 take a chance starter and then ring chasing vets on the bench.  There is money for that, the question is which build. Which new center (or elite PF) and which wing.  Bringing in 2, 4 outgoing....fill in the other 2 slots with serviceable vets.

To be clear i think that's other people's opinion but I'm not really in favor of Ayton either.   I think he'll end up being the prototypical overpaid center.  I'm fine with Capela.  I really want to focus on another scorer.  I'd be fine with Gobert.  I'm not anti-Gobert I just think we're still trying to find the same running mate for Trae with Gobert at center as we are with Capela and I'd rather have the extra $20 mill to find one. 

[Atlantaholic]

57 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

That's fine.   You're envisioning something totally unique.  I can live with the answer i just don't think it'll work.  

But i also think it's not necessary.   Ball dominant, worst in class defender, barely 6'? Are we talking about Donovan Mitchell? 

Is Trae ball dominant.  Sure i guess.  Look what happens when he isn't?   We score 80 points in a playoff game.  He's ball dominant because he's surrounded by guys who can't throw it back to him fast enough if a defender is within 3 feet.    

Trae will be even better with another great scorer next to him.   He's not that unique other than being probably the best passing PG to come along since CP3.  We can try reinventing the wheel but to me that's a riskier path.   Add a scorer.   Look how Luka is doing with Brunson.  Look how Lavine's life changed with just Derozan.  Pels add CJ Mccollum to BI and two guys who were considered no D chuckers start winning and are playing the best team in the West really tough in the playoffs.   

There are no legit contenders in this league that don't have at least two elite offensive players.  

 

The Bulls have been miserably lousy since Caruso and Ball got injured.

[macdaddy]

2 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

The Bulls have been miserably lousy since Caruso and Ball got injured.

Well yeah.  You lose 2 of your top 6 rotation players then you're going to struggle but doesn't change the fact that Lavine was not highly regarded and considered selfish and not a winning player and then you add one real scorer next to him and suddenly they go from Lottery to top of the east.  Sure they added other quality role players.  But my point is we need that other scorer and there is no reason to think another scorer won't work with Trae.  In fact it already does when Bogi is on.  He's just not that consistent and not an elite scorer anyway.

[JayBirdHawk]

9 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

The Bulls have been miserably lousy since Caruso and Ball got injured.

and Zach has been playing on a bum knee.

[Atlantaholic]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

Well yeah.  You lose 2 of your top 6 rotation players then you're going to struggle but doesn't change the fact that Lavine was not highly regarded and considered selfish and not a winning player and then you add one real scorer next to him and suddenly they go from Lottery to top of the east.  Sure they added other quality role players.  But my point is we need that other scorer and there is no reason to think another scorer won't work with Trae.  In fact it already does when Bogi is on.  He's just not that consistent and not an elite scorer anyway.

The point is that the Bulls transformation wasn't about adding another scorer it was about defense. Once they lost those two guys they went from top 10 in defensive rating (I believe 8th) down to 22nd and they finished the season 19-23. Without Ball and Caruso Bulls don't make the playoffs, and all we would be talking about is how stupid Chicago was for paying Derozan so much money.

[Atlantaholic]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

and Zach has been playing on a bum knee.

Lavine's stats have been identical pre and post bum knee. What has changed is their team defense went from top 10 to bottom 5. 

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Atlantaholic said:

The point is that the Bulls transformation wasn't about adding another scorer it was about defense. Once they lost those two guys they went from top 10 in defensive rating (I believe 8th) down to 22nd and they finished the season 19-23. Without Ball and Caruso Bulls don't make the playoffs, and all we would be talking about is how stupid Chicago was for paying Derozan so much money.

Wait so you're making the case that if they had done all the moves but Derozan they'd still be a good playoff team?    I don't know honestly.  I'm going to do a little digging. 

[JayBirdHawk]

3 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Lavine's stats have been identical pre and post bum knee. What has changed is their team defense went from top 10 to bottom 5. 

what about his defense.  I think it's easier to play offense on a bad knee than defense

[Atlantaholic]

5 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Wait so you're making the case that if they had done all the moves but Derozan they'd still be a good playoff team?    I don't know honestly.  I'm going to do a little digging. 

What I'm saying is that without a top 10 defense the Lavine and Derozan pairing has produced a terrible record. 

3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

what about his defense.  I think it's easier to play offense on a bad knee than defense

His defense is crap with a healthy knee lol. I'm guessing yea it probably got worse, but that's not the needle mover on that end. 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

3 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

What I'm saying is that without a top 10 defense the Lavine and Derozan pairing has produced a terrible record. 

His defense is crap with a healthy knee lol. I'm guessing yea it probably got worse, but that's not the needle mover on that end. 

 

so the bulls have two offensive players that are suspect on defense and are surrounded by defenders - why can't we?

[macdaddy]

So the Bulls offensive rating is 5 points higher with DD on the court.   Small sample size but in the playoffs the offensive rating is 25 points higher with DD on the court vs off.  

I get that the defense is a big part of their success but I also think they are a play in team at best without Derozan.  

Still the whole point is the need to add another scorer around Trae and i think the Bulls showed what you can do with two scorers even if they are both not great defenders.   That's what role players are for.  

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

so the bulls have two offensive players that are suspect on defense and are surrounded by defenders - why can't we?

Damn you said it so much more concisely than me.  I gotta learn to do that. 

[JTB]

8 hours ago, NBASupes said:

He raises our floor to the point where we wouldn't have to see Miami in the 1st round for starters as he can single handedly get us 45 wins. Add Trae and we are looking at 60 wins or more. 

He clearly helps us a lot on defense but Miami playoff scheme would be difficult on him as well. We need more than just Gobert. We need a 4 who can create for himself and for others if we really want to be contenders.

He would make JC life a lot easier on defense and offense. That said, he's not a perfect fit. Just a better fit than Clint play wise. 

Thanks ….and I strongly agree.

do you think there’s a chance we could trade for Siakam? Or is that door completely closed shut?

[marco102]

4 hours ago, thecampster said:

So there is one thing you may not be thinking of.  You're saying Gobert vs Ayton. It is never that simple.

The cost to acquire Gobert < the cost to acquire Ayton....for the very reasons you point out. It isn't just a matter of cap but also a matter of cap + assets since most of this maneuvering will be done via trade, not signing.  So the less you give up to swap out Clint for a more imposing center, the more you have in capital to go after another team's wing. With the cap going up and all of the players we're talking about having fixed salaries for a while it is safe to say a trade that lands us in the LT will probably only land us in the LT for 1-2 years, not cap hell.  

Also, part of this scenario is A) the money we're paying Lou and B) the expected money we pay an incoming mid level 1st round pick. Any player at 16 isn't expected to contribute right away, so I can see it being moved as part of the deal. That's another $3.5 million in salary you may not be accounting for as is Lou's 5 mil.  The get Ayton and 1 other star concept is built around consolidation of salaries to a set 10 man rotation and then vet mins for people trying to catch on for a ring chase. Our current build is 1 Star 4 solid starters.  The new build will be 3 stars, 1 solid, 1 take a chance starter and then ring chasing vets on the bench.  There is money for that, the question is which build. Which new center (or elite PF) and which wing.  Bringing in 2, 4 outgoing....fill in the other 2 slots with serviceable vets.

What do you believe the cost would be for each?

[NBASupes]

27 minutes ago, JTB said:

Thanks ….and I strongly agree.

do you think there’s a chance we could trade for Siakam? Or is that door completely closed shut?

Honestly, no. But you never know