The cobbled together, stuff we held on to during the playoffs mega super rumor and team direction thread.

[Dean Walker]

It’s ayton Lavine or bust!

anything else just keeps on the treadmill of mediocrity!

[Peoriabird]

5 minutes ago, sturt said:

Right.

But as said in another post yesterday... here's your trouble...

Schlenk can't plan for the next coach. Schlenk can't plan for 23-24 and beyond. Schlenk has to do whatever he's going to do full throttle laser-focused on re-validating that his master plan that got us to an EC Final in 20-21 was legit.

Thus, any thought that he's going to take a longer view than 22-23 with how he constructs the 22-23 team seems to be infected with cognitive dissonance.

Ummm, Its very unlikely that the Hawks will be in the conference finals next year regardless of what they do so it might be in everybody's best interest to make moves that will be best for the team's future.

[sturt]

18 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Ummm, Its very unlikely that the Hawks will be in the conference finals next year regardless of what they do so it might be in everybody's best interest to make moves that will be best for the team's future.

You can say that.

But can the GM realistically approach it like that?

Don't see it. He loses a lot of confidence and momentum if the 22-23 year doesn't restore confidence in his master plan... an impressive 22-23 is pretty necessary, imo.

[Peoriabird]

2 minutes ago, sturt said:

You can say that.

But can the GM realistically approach it like that?

Don't see it. He loses a lot of confidence and momentum if the 22-23 year doesn't restore confidence in his master plan... an impressive 22-23 is pretty necessary, imo.

Its reality.  This team will never play as well as the top teams in the East with McM as coach.  Nate isn't a top 5 coach and the  hawks will never have top 5 talent.  That's just reality.  The hawks only hope is to go the Golden state way and have enough players on the team that fit within a great system but there is one problem, Trae ain't Steph Curry.  At least not yet.  Lavine ain't it!  He is barely better than Collins and Ayton isn't it either.  Plus you have to gut your team to acquire those players.  And who knows whether there will be chemistry with the changes.  My advise is to continue to build Rome hope you get lucky in the draft one day.  And all you need is one player to be better than everyone thought.

[sturt]

21 minutes ago, Peoriabird said:

Its reality.  This team will never play as well as the top teams in the East with McM as coach.

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... this feels more like it.... stu and peor back on the disagreement train.

 

It's reality?

My friend, no, it's opinion.

Important to live one's life understanding the difference, just as a rule.

Welcome to the opinion. Opinion may prove accurate. Opinion may even be popular.

But reality it is not. (And I'm confident I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, and your hyperbole was realized as just that when you wrote it.)

 

And.

You avoid even addressing the point made. Saying "My advice is to..." in fact leads one to wonder if the post was even read.

In case you did read it... no... you are you. Schlenk is Schlenk.

And you have luxuries as a fan that the guy paid to do the job doesn't have.

 

 

[terrell]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

You'll probably hear more about those guys later this week.

Youre right.. Ochai and Jalen Williams tomorrow...

 

[NBASupes]

39 minutes ago, terrell said:

Youre right.. Ochai and Jalen Williams tomorrow...

 

Awe hell yeah! Jalen Williams and Ochai Agbaji. I can't wait. I feel like one of our picks at 16 will be at this workout

OT: Ya'll give Nate too much shit for what he isn't and not enough credit for what he is.

Edited June 13, 2022 by NBASupes

[JayBirdHawk]

15 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

OT: Ya'll give Nate too much shit for what he isn't and not enough credit for what he is.

The issues I have with Nate are the issues that have plagued him in PTL and Indy...stubborn to a fault and unimaginative offense.

[Spud2nique]

Ayton talk.. and Gobert 

At the 9:33 mark.

[thecampster]

3 hours ago, sturt said:

Right.

But my intended point was, there are only so many rotation spots to be had, and thus, only so many players that are going to get any meaningful minutes in the pursuit of re-establishing his team as a legit contender for 22-23.

And, we already know (a) McM has a history even predating ATL of resisting inserting younger players into his line-ups, and so (b) to anticipate he'd actually insert not just one but two into his plans for 22-23... seems a stretch.

Thus, the value of keeping #16 seems a stretch, at least from where I sit.

 

Right.

But as said in another post yesterday... here's your trouble...

Schlenk can't plan for the next coach. Schlenk can't plan for 23-24 and beyond. Schlenk has to do whatever he's going to do full throttle laser-focused on re-validating that his master plan that got us to an EC Final in 20-21 was legit.

Thus, any thought that he's going to take a longer view than 22-23 with how he constructs the 22-23 team seems to be infected with cognitive dissonance.

 

Don't know about DET. I suppose someone else somewhere in the thread suggested them, but I've not really looked at that.

My thought in response is this.

Think maybe (???) you and @thecampster (based on his "like") might be among those who may accept the idea that the trade value aspect of a deal for a non-guaranteed player inherently means that the receiving team must take-on the contract at the trade value.

I've been researching it to the degree that I can find anything online, and based on that, my takeaway is that that seems to be more a creation/assumption of some fans than it seems to be rooted in any actual language. Can't find that Coon even addresses it, but maybe I've overlooked it.

But those who write about it, such as the guy at Hoops Rumors who impressed me as having studied it, used words that discernibly separated the element of applying trade value to the transaction and the element of the receiving team, then, being automatically obligated to guarantee the incoming player's contract.

And here's why I'm 51+% inclined to think I'm seeing this correctly: The trade value aspect is incorporated into the rule self-evidently to ensure that if the newly-acquired non-guaranteed player's contract is guaranteed--then consistent with the whole reason this 2018 rule was birthed--the receiving team's payroll need to be able to accommodate that according to the normal conventional CBA trade rules. But here's the thing... that's the ONLY relevant reason the trade value needs to be considered.

In other words, there is nothing about the overall spirit of the new rule that demands that the new team actually should be forced to guaranteed that contract. To the contrary, if the contract says the guarantee date is 6/29, then that's the guarantee date. If another team has been assigned the contract through trade, then the choice remains for them to determine.

If I'm wrong about that, then I'm wrong about that, but there must be some specific CBA language that makes that so... and I'm just not reading anything that establishes that... nay, even suggests it... ie, other than what fans have read into it, and yeah, somewhat naturally assumed.... but I believe it's that... "assumed," and they haven't really paused to see that it's not necessarily that way.

All that...

(*catches breath*... hehe... )

to say...

Yeah, if OKC... OKC specifically... can deal for Gallo before 6/29 at a newly-updated guarantee of $11m, or OKC being OKC and Presti being Presti, even $15m... and in that trade send out a $16m package of players that are far more valuable to a team looking to seriously contend in 22-23 than they would be to them ... and get, for their trouble (practically none) a #16 pick? Add to that even moreover that they already have a full roster, and are logically needing to make room for their next draft class?

Seems no-brainer-ish.

 

Danilo is on the final year of his deal. No one with the cap room is taking on Gallo. Only a team with a poor multi year contract and a chance of contending would take him to keep him, unless we're selling him. But then we're giving up 16 just to save $5 million for 1 year. If we took back a bad contract instead, that puts us in the LT. We aren't taking back a multi year unless it's useful.

[terrell]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Awe hell yeah! Jalen Williams and Ochai Agbaji. I can't wait. I feel like one of our picks at 16 will be at this workout

OT: Ya'll give Nate too much shit for what he isn't and not enough credit for what he is.

Id be ok with either one of those guys if we keep the pick...

[sturt]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

Danilo is on the final year of his deal. No one with the cap room is taking on Gallo. Only a team with a poor multi year contract and a chance of contending would take him to keep him, unless we're selling him. But then we're giving up 16 just to save $5 million for 1 year. If we took back a bad contract instead, that puts us in the LT. We aren't taking back a multi year unless it's useful.

I'm uncertain which part of that I'm being taken to disagree with, camp.

Not proposing a team with cap room take on Gallo.... independent of... some balancing out so that they're both (a) ridding themselves of some contract(s) that balance out the buy-out ($5m right now, but as said previously as much as $15m if the deal needed it... me, I'm saying $11m is adequate for what I'm suggesting)... and (b) acquiring some more lucrative perceived reward for their trouble.

To be clear, also, not proposing a contending team would take him (ie, short of the NYK situation we'd discussed weeks ago where his one year is arguably attractive in view of the four years that team committed to Randle).

So, to illustrate using the OKC trade proposed earlier today (tweaked from last week, which was tweaked from the week before that)...

OKC gets #16 pick and Gallo w/ a revised guarantee of $11m, which they will eat after cutting him prior to 6/29... for...

3 expiring contracts each at ~ $2m (Dort, Williams & Roby) plus 1 more at ~$10.2m (Favors)... total of $16m (accommodated via trade exception, ie $11m+$5m+100k)... and rights to Micic, who theoretically would be signed using MLE... oh... and yeah, pick #34 (as-if OKC needs that one anyhow).

So, OKC's net is they subtract $5m-ish off their bottom line.

The short-term value to ATL is a fairly significant infusion of defense up and down the 22-23 roster, and the addition of a plausibly legitimate other scorer who can be featured in the rotation. Long-term value is almost exclusively Micic since the others would all be UFAs in 2023, though you'd have Bird rights I believe to resign Favors and Kenrich Williams if they impressed.

You may not like that version, but for the sake of this particular conversation, it's purpose is only to illustrate the incentives that would lead both sides to make a deal... the particular player assets involved could be modified, of course(... I even argued with myself about Favors, in light of the money and in light of how Moose performed last season relative to what he's owed for his expiring).

 

 

[Dean Walker]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

Ayton talk.. and Gobert 

At the 9:33 mark.

He thinks Jc is Gone!

Not surprised, we should’ve never resigned him!

[JTB]

8 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Ayton has offensive versatility in his game but being a playmaking C he doesn't have that. Hawks still need Wing ballhandlers/creators.  And this is why it will be tough starting OO at PF without his range extending- the supposed Ayton in the post gets that much more difficult without a PF with the ability to step out and hit a reliable jump shot.

I know that’s why I said build playmaking skills. He seems to swing the ball to open man just fine from what I’ve seen. Not calling him Jokic just saying he makes the smart play in my opinion.

im no longer looking at OO starting next to Ayton since PHX can only take back 20 mil in salary it’s pretty much Capela or Bogi from us which would more likely be Capela of course so if we do get Ayton I fully expect JC to still be on this team. Unless the FO lucks up and trade JC for Lavine but what’s the chances of two great things happening in one off season for the hawks…I will stick with holding out hope for a capela for Ayton trade to go down however.

[Diesel]

Hey Squawk... What do you think about this....

If we can get Mark Williams or Jalen Duren in the draft... just say we get there....

Say we were able to pull off the Ayton deal..

Let's say Cap + Future first protected for Ayton (SNT)

Then... Follow up with:

OO for Tyler Herro.

You can do what you like to tighten up PF using Gallo and you can move Bogi to get some BU help at Sf...

but our starting 5 going into next season are:

Trae/Herro/Hunter/JC/Ayton...

 

Thoughts?

[JTB]

6 hours ago, Peoriabird said:

Its reality.  This team will never play as well as the top teams in the East with McM as coach.  Nate isn't a top 5 coach and the  hawks will never have top 5 talent.  That's just reality.  The hawks only hope is to go the Golden state way and have enough players on the team that fit within a great system but there is one problem, Trae ain't Steph Curry.  At least not yet.  Lavine ain't it!  He is barely better than Collins and Ayton isn't it either.  Plus you have to gut your team to acquire those players.  And who knows whether there will be chemistry with the changes.  My advise is to continue to build Rome hope you get lucky in the draft one day.  And all you need is one player to be better than everyone thought.

“Gut your team”….what the….huh?…have you read the past 100 pages of this thread ?

It’s already been confirmed that you don’t have to gut the team to get Ayton it’s either going to be Capela or Bogi going out of Ayton chooses to come here…. and to get Lavine you may have to trade a 2 for 1 but that certainly isn’t gutting your team.

Furthermore we don’t need Trae to be curry we need Trae to be the best version of himself. Last Ayton and Lavine are true impact players that would be great here with Trae. To call them slight upgrades or not upgrades is insane ….you’re either giving our current players a lot of undeserving respect or you haven’t truly watched Lavine or Ayton to give fair judgement.

[terrell]

28 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Hey Squawk... What do you think about this....

If we can get Mark Williams or Jalen Duren in the draft... just say we get there....

Say we were able to pull off the Ayton deal..

Let's say Cap + Future first protected for Ayton (SNT)

Then... Follow up with:

OO for Tyler Herro.

You can do what you like to tighten up PF using Gallo and you can move Bogi to get some BU help at Sf...

but our starting 5 going into next season are:

Trae/Herro/Hunter/JC/Ayton...

 

Thoughts?

Horrible defensively....

[JTB]

25 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Hey Squawk... What do you think about this....

If we can get Mark Williams or Jalen Duren in the draft... just say we get there....

Say we were able to pull off the Ayton deal..

Let's say Cap + Future first protected for Ayton (SNT)

Then... Follow up with:

OO for Tyler Herro.

You can do what you like to tighten up PF using Gallo and you can move Bogi to get some BU help at Sf...

but our starting 5 going into next season are:

Trae/Herro/Hunter/JC/Ayton...

 

Thoughts?

I personally think Herro is overrated. If we have Trae, JC, Ayton on the team along with Hunter still working on his offensive game which MAY be promising if he can build off that game 5 performance (that’s the hope anyways) then we really don’t need a guy like herro who’s offensive minded . To me offensively Trae, JC, Ayton are going to be a damn hand full for even the best defenses out there but the scheme would need to be adjusted in order for the impact i can see take place.
defensively this is the perfect chance to get a defensive minded SG next to Trae like the next Marcus Smart type that’s out there or something ….just my thoughts. 
 

oh and I’d rather keep OO too early to get rid of him .

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, JTB said:

I personally think Herro is overrated. If we have Trae, JC, Ayton on the team along with Hunter still working on his offensive game which MAY be promising if he can build off that game 5 performance (that’s the hope anyways) then we really don’t need a guy like herro who’s offensive minded . To me offensively Trae, JC, Ayton are going to be a damn hand full for even the best defenses out there but the scheme would need to be adjusted in order for the impact i can see take place.
defensively this is the perfect chance to get a defensive minded SG next to Trae like the next Marcus Smart type that’s out there or something ….just my thoughts. 
 

oh and I’d rather keep OO too early to get rid of him .

You still will need a secondary ball handler.  Someone who can get us into different sets that will allow Trae to play off ball.

Also..

Keep OO for what?  The reality is, if you bring in Ayton,  you've just made your #6 pick overall into a bench player for the rest of his time here.  He's not a PF... and he's not going to want to stay here if there's no possibility of starting at some point.

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, terrell said:

Horrible defensively....

If we pick up Ayton.. and do nothing else.. we have Trae, Kev, Hunter, JC, and Ayton as our starting 5...

So I guess the same applies?