The cobbled together, stuff we held on to during the playoffs mega super rumor and team direction thread.

[marco102]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

No. He's not worth the max. His talent is. But he's like Andrew Wiggins. You wonder if he can handle a much bigger load on both ends. I have my doubts defensively but offensively, Trae makes it so easy for centers. Even clowns like Damian Jones can be productive. He should produce and produce at a tremendous rate with Trae. 

He's worth a max when you look at what he's done at 23.  Also considering the salary cap increase in 2 seasons, his contract will only have a big impact the first two years.  The last two will be a steal. 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, marco102 said:

Yes, he is.  The slight drop off defensively will be made up for all the bunnies Clint misses that 90% of everyone here were complaining about.  Ayton is a fantastic finisher.  He also isn't restricted to the paint which opens up the offense even more.  Pick and rolls, pick and pops can be ran with him and JC.  He's a good offensive player and good defensive player.  That's what we need at the center position.  You max him out because he's only 23 years old.  Proved he will sacrifice to help the team win.  

He also improved in the short roll and on isolation plays during last season. 

With Trae Ayton will probably be a 23 and 12 rebound and 2 assist guy.  Those are all star numbers.  

I can't stress enough how badly Ayton will raise the floor and ceiling of this team. 

He'd also make up for the lack of wing's ability to self create.

There is more than a slight drop from Capela to Ayton defensively. There is a vast gap between the the two. Capela is generally 2-3 in the league defensively whereas Ayton is 7-10 at his position on D. 

Just now, marco102 said:

He's worth a max when you look at what he's done at 23.  Also considering the salary cap increase in 2 seasons, his contract will only have a big impact the first two years.  The last two will be a steal. 

Could be but he's going to have to be more consistent. He can't be taking possessions off like he does now especially on offense when he's not involved. He needs to be locked in. 

[AHF]

3 hours ago, thecampster said:

Would you be willing to run that same stat breakdown for Huerter, BB, JC, Clint (apologies for the big ask)?

 

Willing but not able today.  Sorry, camp.  Working away from computer for most of the day today.

[Spud2nique]

9 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Would you want to?

I mean..  Isaiah Stewart, Kelly Onlyk and a first round pick in the draft.. can we better that?

Seriously? Wouldn’t you rather have Capela to plug in if your the Suns rather than Stewart or Kelly O? 
 

Depends how bad the Suns want a #5 over #16. 
 

Ya, possibly. If I’m the Suns thought I wanna play n plug with Capela and run it back.

[NBASupes]

7 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Seriously? Wouldn’t you rather have Capela to plug in if your the Suns rather than Stewart or Kelly O? 
 

Depends how bad the Suns want a #5 over #16. 
 

Ya, possibly. If I’m the Suns thought I wanna play n plug with Capela and run it back.

World to Spud. World to Diesel. Atlanta cannot trade 16th in a SnT. DET cannot trade 5th in a SnT. They can trade their 2023 if they have control over it which I believe DET doesn't have. (OKC). Atlanta can trade both 2023 picks they have (CHA & ATL). 

 

If Atlanta wants to trade 16 or DET 5, they can trade it for a player (Kevin Love) and wait like 60 days to trade the rights to the pick which is who they picked at 5th or 16th. That's unlikely to happen in most cases but in a SnT, I've never heard of it happening at all. It would be them waiting for 60 days and someone could just offer Ayton a max deal, he takes it and PHX is forced to match. Yeah, that's never happening. More feasible for a regular trade than a SnT. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by NBASupes

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

It will have to be a future pick....cannot use this year's draft picks in SnT deals....draft before FAcy.

 

I wouldn't give up the 5th pick in the draft anyway.   Too much potential.

[JayBirdHawk]

8 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

They will never get minimal value. Especially if they let it be known they are open to a SnT which they already have let everyone know that they are open to a SnT. I don't see DET getting him. They aren't a winning team and they can be easily outbidded. 

I think Ayton is seeking a max deal over everything else. I think there are 3 teams with capspace that can offer him a RFA deal.

As much as the Suns are open to a SnT, for teams with capspace there is no incentive for them to give up realky valuable assets, it rarely happens. (See Lonzo Ball and Demar DeRozan in recent past)

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

There is more than a slight drop from Capela to Ayton defensively. There is a vast gap between the the two. Capela is generally 2-3 in the league defensively whereas Ayton is 7-10 at his position on D. 

Could be but he's going to have to be more consistent. He can't be taking possessions off like he does now especially on offense when he's not involved. He needs to be locked in. 

I think this is fair.  Agree that there is a big gap between Ayton and Cap on D but Ayton is still good.  If Cap is in the second tier of defenders at center than Ayton is a full tier below that.  
 

Conversely, Ayton is probably also a second tier on offense while Cap is among the very worst starting centers in the league offensively.  That is the driver for any deal like that, the big offensive improvement with a decline on D but probably one you can live with.  
 

Price in trade and contract all factors in.  

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I think Ayton is seeking a max deal over everything else. I think there are 3 teams with capspace that can offer him a RFA deal.

As much as the Suns are open to a SnT, for teams with capspace there is no incentive for them to give up realky valuable assets, it rarely happens. (See Lonzo Ball and Demar DeRozan in recent past)

A lot of teams can give him a max deal if PHX is willing to do a SnT. No one really wanted Ball or DD. This is more like Iso Joe/PHX. Funny, same team and likely the same team to get the other player. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by NBASupes

[Diesel]

8 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Seriously? Wouldn’t you rather have Capela to plug in if your the Suns rather than Stewart or Kelly O? 
 

Depends how bad the Suns want a #5 over #16. 
 

Ya, possibly. If I’m the Suns thought I wanna play n plug with Capela and run it back.

Neither pick would be from this year. 

[JayBirdHawk]

7 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

A lot of teams can give him a max deal if PHX is willing to do a SnT. No one really wanted Ball or DD. This is more like Iso Joe/PHX. Funny, same team and likely the same team to get the other player. 

Not necessarily -

1. teams with capspace have the advantage.

2. Phoenix is limited in the salary they can take back since Ayton is BYC, which also means Phoenix will have to send out additional 'bad' contracts which those other teams must have room to take and/or willing to take them or pay additional cost for another team to take them.

[marco102]

8 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think this is fair.  Agree that there is a big gap between Ayton and Cap on D but Ayton is still good.  If Cap is in the second tier of defenders at center than Ayton is a full tier below that.  
 

Conversely, Ayton is probably also a second tier on offense while Cap is among the very worst starting centers in the league offensively.  That is the driver for any deal like that, the big offensive improvement with a decline on D but probably one you can live with.  
 

Price in trade and contract all factors in.  

This is where I'm at.  

[NBASupes]

6 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Not necessarily -

1. teams with capspace have the advantage.

2. Phoenix is limited in the salary they can take back since Ayton is BYC, which also means Phoenix will have to send out additional 'bad' contracts which those other teams must have room to take and/or willing to take them or pay additional cost for another team to take them.

1. No. Not at all. Especially if the team is only willing to do a SnT and not just let the player walk like NO and SA did with Chicago. This is an Iso Joe case. 

2. Ayton cap hold is higher than his max. We wouldn't have any issues with BYC in regard to Ayton. He's not Kevin making that cheap rookie contract salary.

 

To end the confusion, @thecampster, let's have a trade talk on Ayton and what it would take to land him with the Hawks so we don't have any questions moving forward. I wished Michelle Leftwich was a poster. She would be so damn helpful. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

16 minutes ago, AHF said:

I think this is fair.  Agree that there is a big gap between Ayton and Cap on D but Ayton is still good.  If Cap is in the second tier of defenders at center than Ayton is a full tier below that.  
 

Conversely, Ayton is probably also a second tier on offense while Cap is among the very worst starting centers in the league offensively.  That is the driver for any deal like that, the big offensive improvement with a decline on D but probably one you can live with.  
 

Price in trade and contract all factors in.  

I have my quarrels. I feel like you have to defensively upgrade the 4 if you have Ayton at the 5 with our personnel. Okongwu can solve that but he has to improve his range or teams will just crowd the paint which is good for the wings of course. 

[marco102]

Whispers....I'd be willing to take on Andrew Wiggins.  He's better than any wing we have right now. 

[AHF]

Just now, NBASupes said:

2. Ayton cap hold is higher than his max. We wouldn't have any issues with BYC in regard to Ayton. He's not Kevin making that cheap rookie contract salary.

Pretty sure that isn’t right, Supes.  From what I understand, we need to take back a lot more than Phoenix can take back from us.  Like we need to get rid of both Bogi and Cap but the Suns can only take Cap which means we need to find someone else to take Bogi without giving us or the Suns salary back.  
 

Would be good to have our cap experts weigh in on this since it is pretty significant whether Supes is correct as far as how the deal must be constructed.

[marco102]

Just now, NBASupes said:

I have my quarrels. I feel like you have to defensively upgrade the 4 if you have Ayton at the 5 with our personnel. Okongwu can solve that but he has to improve his range or teams will just crowd the paint which is good for the wings of course. 

John has improved every year on this team as a defender.  Every impact stat shows him as a positive defender.  They will work just find.  What you need to do is make sure the wings aren't traffic cones out there.  

The four never has or will be the problem for the Hawks defensively.  Last year was the perimeter defense. 

[AHF]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

I have my quarrels. I feel like you have to defensively upgrade the 4 if you have Ayton at the 5 with our personnel. Okongwu can solve that but he has to improve his range or teams will just crowd the paint which is good for the wings of course. 

If you kept both JC and OO, that would give you a lot flexibility to mix and match depending on what we were facing on the floor.  Get rid of either one and it becomes much more challenging.  Whether we trade for Ayton or not, we need to OO to develop his face up game and some range.

[marco102]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

Pretty sure that isn’t right, Supes.  From what I understand, we need to take back a lot more than Phoenix can take back from us.  Like we need to get rid of both Bogi and Cap but the Suns can only take Cap which means we need to find someone else to take Bogi without giving us or the Suns salary back.  
 

Would be good to have our cap experts weigh in on this since it is pretty significant whether Supes is correct as far as how the deal must be constructed.

I'm no expert, but if you trade Bogi to San Antonio for a protected pick from SA or one of their middling first round picks from another team, you'd create enough space to take on Ayton.  Phx will have to trade a small contract to the Hawks or someone else before the trade to clear the about $500K difference in Capela in coming salary and Ayton's outgoing salary to make the trade work. 

 

[warcore]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I have my quarrels. I feel like you have to defensively upgrade the 4 if you have Ayton at the 5 with our personnel. Okongwu can solve that but he has to improve his range or teams will just crowd the paint which is good for the wings of course. 

I don't necessarily agree that that's a necessity (Gwu adding range) if Ayton is replacing Cap. I would whole heartedly agree that if Gwu were to start next to Cap, he would have to have that range. But Ayton spreads the floor in a way that Cap doesn't.