The cobbled together, stuff we held on to during the playoffs mega super rumor and team direction thread.

[BangHolman]

5 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Whispers....I'd be willing to take on Andrew Wiggins.  He's better than any wing we have right now. 

I think a lot of us would now, but wouldn't have during his Wolves' seasons.

[NBASupes]

Just now, marco102 said:

John has improved every year on this team as a defender.  Every impact stat shows him as a positive defender.  They will work just find.  What you need to do is make sure the wings aren't traffic cones out there.  

The four never has or will be the problem for the Hawks defensively.  Last year was the perimeter defense. 

JC is way too small. Ayton already has issues with size and quickness. The East is loaded with those guys like Bam, Embiid, Giannis, etc. Even the next tier ain't bad like Allen and Lopez. Okongwu has proved to me he can guard the big dawgs and fairly well. Offensively, I need to see more than just movement and finishing. I need to see shooting range and better screens. 

JC was getting ate up by Randle and some of the more skilled 4s like Giannis. I know what you gonna say. Everyone don't got that but in the playoffs in the east, they do. In the west, it's weak as hell at the 4 but not in the east. 

That said, I just spoke on JC and quite highly, I value the shit outta JC but when you start talking contending. I have my questions. 

[thecampster]

5 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Not necessarily -

1. teams with capspace have the advantage.

2. Phoenix is limited in the salary they can take back since Ayton is BYC, which also means Phoenix will have to send out additional 'bad' contracts which those other teams must have room to take and/or willing to take them or pay additional cost for another team to take them.

That is a really good point I hadn't considered. 

For those wondering what Jaybird is saying here.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/05/hoops-rumors-glossary-base-year-compensation.html

"

The BYC rules apply to a player who meets the following criteria in a sign-and-trade:

• He is a Bird or Early Bird free agent.
• His new salary is worth more than the minimum.
• He receives a raise greater than 20%.
• His team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing.

If the player meets those criteria and is included in a sign-and-trade deal, his outgoing salary for matching purposes is considered to be his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. For the team he is being signed-and-traded to, his incoming figure for matching purposes is his full new salary."

That new contract is $30,250,000.  Phoenix is over the cap and will be approaching the LT with the signing or trade. His outgoing salary would be either higher of $ 12,632,950  or "$15,125,000". The amount Phoenix could take back would have to be within 25% of that number or about $18.9 mil.

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, warcore said:

I don't necessarily agree that that's a necessity (Gwu adding range) if Ayton is replacing Cap. I would whole heartedly agree that if Gwu were to start next to Cap, he would have to have that range. But Ayton spreads the floor in a way that Cap doesn't. 

I don't think Okongwu and Capela can play together but that's just me. Offense scares me too much and Trae spams his bigs. 

[thecampster]

11 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

1. No. Not at all. Especially if the team is only willing to do a SnT and not just let the player walk like NO and SA did with Chicago. This is an Iso Joe case. 

2. Ayton cap hold is higher than his max. We wouldn't have any issues with BYC in regard to Ayton. He's not Kevin making that cheap rookie contract salary.

 

To end the confusion, @thecampster, let's have a trade talk on Ayton and what it would take to land him with the Hawks so we don't have any questions moving forward. I wished Michelle Leftwich was a poster. She would be so damn helpful. 

Just answered. BYC would apply.  The problem is being able to send limited assets back.

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, marco102 said:

I'm no expert, but if you trade Bogi to San Antonio for a protected pick from SA or one of their middling first round picks from another team, you'd create enough space to take on Ayton.  Phx will have to trade a small contract to the Hawks or someone else before the trade to clear the about $500K difference in Capela in coming salary and Ayton's outgoing salary to make the trade work. 

 

That is the sort of deal I would envision.  Limits the market of which teams can do that kind of juggling act.  You can do all kinds of variation on this but it is vastly easier to deal someone with positive value like Bogi than to deal some of the players we took during our rebuild (Crabbe, Parsons, etc.) and the number of teams with cap space and an interest in legit competing next year is pretty small.

[thecampster]

3 minutes ago, thecampster said:

That is a really good point I hadn't considered. 

For those wondering what Jaybird is saying here.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/05/hoops-rumors-glossary-base-year-compensation.html

"

The BYC rules apply to a player who meets the following criteria in a sign-and-trade:

• He is a Bird or Early Bird free agent.
• His new salary is worth more than the minimum.
• He receives a raise greater than 20%.
• His team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing.

If the player meets those criteria and is included in a sign-and-trade deal, his outgoing salary for matching purposes is considered to be his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. For the team he is being signed-and-traded to, his incoming figure for matching purposes is his full new salary."

That new contract is $30,250,000.  Phoenix is over the cap and will be approaching the LT with the signing or trade. His outgoing salary would be either higher of $ 12,632,950  or "$15,125,000". The amount Phoenix could take back would have to be within 25% of that number or about $18.9 mil.

lemme check that 25%...be a minute

 

[macdaddy]

I'm super confused.  So phx has to take back half of Ayton's new contract.  Isn't that just really close to what Capela makes?

[thecampster]

yes, should be 125% + 100k. So more like $19 mil flat.

 

So the matching amount is 50% of the new contract (in this instance).  So matching 125% + 100k off that.

Edited June 6, 2022 by thecampster

[marco102]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

JC is way too small. Ayton already has issues with size and quickness. The East is loaded with those guys like Bam, Embiid, Giannis, etc. Even the next tier ain't bad like Allen and Lopez. Okongwu has proved to me he can guard the big dawgs and fairly well. Offensively, I need to see more than just movement and finishing. I need to see shooting range and better screens. 

JC was getting ate up by Randle and some of the more skilled 4s like Giannis. I know what you gonna say. Everyone don't got that but in the playoffs in the east, they do. In the west, it's weak as hell at the 4 but not in the east. 

That said, I just spoke on JC and quite highly, I value the shit outta JC but when you start talking contending. I have my questions. 

John has not struggled to defend Bam is quite sometime. 

Embiid - What four is stopping him? 

Giannis? - What four is stopping him?

Randle - He did eat John's lunch during the regular season.  Playoffs was a different story.  It took a team effort to shut him down, but they did it. 

Psikiam - Who stopped him in the 2021 playoffs?  OO struggled with him in the regular season too.

To me, playoff defense is more about defensive scheme and the player ability to execute.  John and Ayton would be good enough offensively and defensively to hold up against most of those guys.  No one's slowing them down.  What Ayton and JC would do is keep up with them offensively and rebound.

Rebounding is OO's biggest weakness thus far.

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, thecampster said:

That is a really good point I hadn't considered. 

For those wondering what Jaybird is saying here.

https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2019/05/hoops-rumors-glossary-base-year-compensation.html

"

The BYC rules apply to a player who meets the following criteria in a sign-and-trade:

• He is a Bird or Early Bird free agent.
• His new salary is worth more than the minimum.
• He receives a raise greater than 20%.
• His team is at or above the cap immediately after the signing.

If the player meets those criteria and is included in a sign-and-trade deal, his outgoing salary for matching purposes is considered to be his previous salary or 50% of his new salary, whichever is greater. For the team he is being signed-and-traded to, his incoming figure for matching purposes is his full new salary."

That new contract is $30,250,000.  Phoenix is over the cap and will be approaching the LT with the signing or trade. His outgoing salary would be either higher of $ 12,632,950  or "$15,125,000". The amount Phoenix could take back would have to be within 25% of that number or about $18.9 mil.

That makes a JC trade next to impossible. As they would have to add salary to get to within 25% of JC's deal but Atlanta would have to ship that said player to another team as Atlanta has to send non-guarantee contract to someone to be within 25% of 30.5. 

 

So if JC is in it. It would have to be Ayton+Craig (within 24) for JC (23.5) plus a future 1st and a non guaranteed contract.  Craig and the non guaranteed would have to go to a 3rd team. Man, this will be tough. Finding a team to take a non guarantee is EASY but someone to take Craig is hard. He's likely gonna cost you a 2nd rounder to get rid of him to a team with cap space. 

 

@thecampster would this be correct? 

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Craig

You’d get your guy!  Hello generational defender! 

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Craig and the non guaranteed would have to go to a 3rd team

Oh wait then you’d lose him? 

[NBASupes]

@marco102, that's a good point with Capela why his name was always mentioned. @thecampster, look into a Capela SnT for Ayton deal. And look into us trading Bogi for SA 1st 2022, let's say 20th overall plus a TPE and let's say we just cut Gallo. Can we do a SnT without all of the red tape for Ayton with Capela as the only player in the deal? 

[Spud2nique]

@macdaddy May I join you in the “confused boat “?

[thecampster]

17 minutes ago, AHF said:

Pretty sure that isn’t right, Supes.  From what I understand, we need to take back a lot more than Phoenix can take back from us.  Like we need to get rid of both Bogi and Cap but the Suns can only take Cap which means we need to find someone else to take Bogi without giving us or the Suns salary back.  
 

Would be good to have our cap experts weigh in on this since it is pretty significant whether Supes is correct as far as how the deal must be constructed.

Disclaimer: Only an explanation of a possible scenario.  I am not saying this is a rumor. Please for the love of all that is round and bounces, no one attribute this to me.  San Antonio only has $82 million in rostered salary right now.

Atlanta Out: Capela, Bogi, #16

Atlanta In: Ayton (SnT)

Phoenix Out: Ayton (SnT)

Phoenix In: Capela, #9

San Antonio Out: #9

San Antonio In: Bogi, #16.

 

Yes, this works.  I'm not recommending it as the best use of resources, but it works.

[NBASupes]

Just now, Spud2nique said:

You’d get your guy!  Hello generational defender! 

Oh wait then you’d lose him? 

Craig lost all his tremendous defensive chops after his injury. He's still a good defender and heady but he's probably not worth 5.6 mil at this stage. 

[marco102]

11 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I'm super confused.  So phx has to take back half of Ayton's new contract.  Isn't that just really close to what Capela makes?

 

On 5/29/2022 at 9:58 PM, marco102 said:

 

 

The Suns will need to send a small contract to Atlanta to get Capela.  Atlanta will need to send out Gallo to another team and take back minimal salary.

check out this post so you can understand. 

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

 

@marco102, that's a good point with Capela why his name was always mentioned

 

Marco I’ll take those flowers … thaaaaaaannnnkkkkk you!  

[thecampster]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

@marco102, that's a good point with Capela why his name was always mentioned. @thecampster, look into a Capela SnT for Ayton deal. And look into us trading Bogi for SA 1st 2022, let's say 20th overall plus a TPE and let's say we just cut Gallo. Can we do a SnT without all of the red tape for Ayton with Capela as the only player in the deal? 

No. Even without Gallo we're at $136 million in salary.  We're over, they're over even after waivers/renouncing.  Both teams are over. Its a BYC situation. 20% salary raise, team will be over the cap when trade complete.

[NBASupes]

10 minutes ago, marco102 said:

John has not struggled to defend Bam is quite sometime. 

Embiid - What four is stopping him? 

Giannis? - What four is stopping him?

Randle - He did eat John's lunch during the regular season.  Playoffs was a different story.  It took a team effort to shut him down, but they did it. 

Psikiam - Who stopped him in the 2021 playoffs?  OO struggled with him in the regular season too.

To me, playoff defense is more about defensive scheme and the player ability to execute.  John and Ayton would be good enough offensively and defensively to hold up against most of those guys.  No one's slowing them down.  What Ayton and JC would do is keep up with them offensively and rebound.

Rebounding is OO's biggest weakness thus far.

I still have my doubts and I haven't lost them for JC at 4 in the east. He's still crazy important and I'll rather have him than lose him. 

OO is a tremendous offensive rebounder but defensively, he got some work to do in terms of rebounds. He could be stronger when around the ball on that end like he is on offense.