Take the 25 game pledge (... or if not, modify it to suit your own convictions... )

[Wretch]

Live footage of @sturt and @AHF respectfully debating and disagreeing:

[sturt]

2 minutes ago, Wretch said:

Live footage of @sturt and @AHF respectfully debating and disagreeing:

I'm the one with the green foil.... you know, since I'm the Marshall alum.

 

 

 

[MarylandHawk]

13 hours ago, thecampster said:

25 games have come and gone and I raised a few eyebrows in this thread when I mentioned I had some preconceived notions (see here: 

).  I received private messages after saying this but managed to keep my mouth shut.

Before the 2018 draft, I was one of the few posters actively campaigning for Trae Young. I wanted a heads up point guard and believed the team would people players around him to help him grow, cover for his short comings.

In the interim, the team has consistently favored undersized players to pair with Trae, further exasperating the team's defensive woes.  They've drafted small and fast at every position, trying to run when you have a guard who doesn't run, he dissects. 

Then, there's Trae's immaturity. There, I said it. I've given him 4 years but despite his high assist rate, he's a shoot first point guard who wastes possessions on the regular on long 3's, unnecessary 1v1's and chest puffing. Trae's father's constant social media nonsense and Trae's me first attitude has created a terrible Karma problem.  The me first stuff down the stretch has cost us 2 losses recently  (almost 3).

I questioned when the trade happened that sooner rather than later the Hawks would regret the Huerter trade.  The improvement in the Kings and their good Karma and the shooting woes of these Hawks shows me I may be right here. The Huerter trade away was a huge step back for the team. Not in talent but in cohesion, good feels, team play.

John Collins is palpably hurting from Trae's time on the floor and he might as well be dealt at this point. He and Trae no longer pair well and I honestly hope for him to be in a situation that appreciates and uses him.

I love Dejaunte but I fear a trade away of Trae will sour him on the situation here.

Griffin is great.

Johnson is being wasted, barely getting shots, limited minutes and being forced to do things to cover for others' wants/needs.

I've over Capela and I'm not sold on Bogi's health.  

 

It is what it is. Trae is amazing, but if the Hawks do walk away from him at this point, I'm okay with it.  His impact is no longer in line with his stats. He needs to grow up and see the team game or we need to move on.  

I take no pleasure in writing this. I've been a huge fan of his before he got here but I'm a Hawks fan first.

Nooo Camp!  Take it all back. Don’t give up. We have to remember this is competitive basketball and everyone trying win in their own way. There is no greater competitor on this team, err in the league than Trae. He is using everything he has got to win. That may come off as hot dogging or me first, but would you do less than you know you could?  No. He won’t either. Other guys have to match his level of competitiveness.   I have never ever seen a Trae teammate hustle to get open and Trae not pass the ball. Competitors and superstars don’t grow on trees.  I am sticking with my man to the bitter end. He is our best chance at relevancy and winning. Don’t let the outsiders trick you into only focusing on the negatives. They just want him on their team. 

[Spud2nique]

13 hours ago, sturt said:

Sobriety.

From here on out whenever you don’t mention “sobriety” in your posts I’ll assume you’re piss drunk.  

[shakes]

13 hours ago, thecampster said:

25 games have come and gone and I raised a few eyebrows in this thread when I mentioned I had some preconceived notions (see here: 

).  I received private messages after saying this but managed to keep my mouth shut.

Before the 2018 draft, I was one of the few posters actively campaigning for Trae Young. I wanted a heads up point guard and believed the team would people players around him to help him grow, cover for his short comings.

In the interim, the team has consistently favored undersized players to pair with Trae, further exasperating the team's defensive woes.  They've drafted small and fast at every position, trying to run when you have a guard who doesn't run, he dissects. 

Then, there's Trae's immaturity. There, I said it. I've given him 4 years but despite his high assist rate, he's a shoot first point guard who wastes possessions on the regular on long 3's, unnecessary 1v1's and chest puffing. Trae's father's constant social media nonsense and Trae's me first attitude has created a terrible Karma problem.  The me first stuff down the stretch has cost us 2 losses recently  (almost 3).

I questioned when the trade happened that sooner rather than later the Hawks would regret the Huerter trade.  The improvement in the Kings and their good Karma and the shooting woes of these Hawks shows me I may be right here. The Huerter trade away was a huge step back for the team. Not in talent but in cohesion, good feels, team play.

John Collins is palpably hurting from Trae's time on the floor and he might as well be dealt at this point. He and Trae no longer pair well and I honestly hope for him to be in a situation that appreciates and uses him.

I love Dejaunte but I fear a trade away of Trae will sour him on the situation here.

Griffin is great.

Johnson is being wasted, barely getting shots, limited minutes and being forced to do things to cover for others' wants/needs.

I've over Capela and I'm not sold on Bogi's health.  

 

It is what it is. Trae is amazing, but if the Hawks do walk away from him at this point, I'm okay with it.  His impact is no longer in line with his stats. He needs to grow up and see the team game or we need to move on.  

I take no pleasure in writing this. I've been a huge fan of his before he got here but I'm a Hawks fan first.

Agree 100%.    I've been a Trae stan since November 2017.     And it pains me to agree with you, but facts are facts.  I'm a stan, but I'm a stan who isn't afraid to give out tough love.  And Trae needs tough love at this point.   He's been in the league 4 years now and he cares more about his 1v1 battles than he does winning.  He can say otherwise, but push comes to shove his actions and body language say differently.  

[Spud2nique]

6 minutes ago, shakes said:

Agree 100%.    I've been a Trae stan since November 2017.     And it pains me to agree with you, but facts are facts.  I'm a stan, but I'm a stan who isn't afraid to give out tough love.  And Trae needs tough love at this point.   He's been in the league 4 years now and he cares more about his 1v1 battles than he does winning.  He can say otherwise, but push comes to shove his actions and body language say differently.  

[sturt]

16 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

From here on out whenever you don’t mention “sobriety” in your posts I’ll assume you’re piss drunk.  

I bet you will. You give me no reason to think otherwise. hehe

[Spud2nique]

4 minutes ago, sturt said:

hehe

[sturt]

13 hours ago, sturt said:

Presented without comment from exactly 32 games into last season. The Eastern Conference champs' season, that is. Well, maybe one comment. Sobriety.

 

5-6 for December 2022... 2-5 in their last 7... it happens.

 

We've got 5 of 7 on the road, with 4 of those being a western swing to start the new year. Upon return, the good guys get a 2 day break before the Bucks roll into the Farm.

Think it makes sense to terminate the extended pledge and start taking seriously what our eyes see beginning with that. But that's just me.

[sturt]

 

Preach.

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, sturt said:

 

Preach.

Glen, do me a favor and get up off the couch and touch your toes. 
 

Yeaaaaa, I’m not listening to a lazy lump of Cheeto. This dude never played basketball in his life. Nah, no click zone. Never touched Glen’s stuff, Brad is a bowler he can’t even golf ️.

And these foos wanna tell me, it’s ok or not ok….. yeaaaaaaa your 2 cents to me isn’t worth that, you gimme $ to listen to you blather.

 

[sturt]

Gotta give it to Spud. Does anyone... could anyone... work harder to create posts that feature such a variety of random artwork? Might not be much to the substance of the words, but A for overall effort each and every time. No one is more serious about trying to keep the Squawk entertaining and lighthearted. (As annoying as that might sometimes be to some of us. )

[Spud2nique]

1 minute ago, sturt said:

As annoying

They said “charming”…  no? Annoying? Sheesh Stu  that’s not very Christmasy of you!  

2 minutes ago, sturt said:

random artwork?

Hey, it’s not speling so that’s a wyn!  

[Final_quest]

18 hours ago, thecampster said:

25 games have come and gone and I raised a few eyebrows in this thread when I mentioned I had some preconceived notions (see here: 

).  I received private messages after saying this but managed to keep my mouth shut.

Before the 2018 draft, I was one of the few posters actively campaigning for Trae Young. I wanted a heads up point guard and believed the team would people players around him to help him grow, cover for his short comings.

In the interim, the team has consistently favored undersized players to pair with Trae, further exasperating the team's defensive woes.  They've drafted small and fast at every position, trying to run when you have a guard who doesn't run, he dissects. 

Then, there's Trae's immaturity. There, I said it. I've given him 4 years but despite his high assist rate, he's a shoot first point guard who wastes possessions on the regular on long 3's, unnecessary 1v1's and chest puffing. Trae's father's constant social media nonsense and Trae's me first attitude has created a terrible Karma problem.  The me first stuff down the stretch has cost us 2 losses recently  (almost 3).

I questioned when the trade happened that sooner rather than later the Hawks would regret the Huerter trade.  The improvement in the Kings and their good Karma and the shooting woes of these Hawks shows me I may be right here. The Huerter trade away was a huge step back for the team. Not in talent but in cohesion, good feels, team play.

John Collins is palpably hurting from Trae's time on the floor and he might as well be dealt at this point. He and Trae no longer pair well and I honestly hope for him to be in a situation that appreciates and uses him.

I love Dejaunte but I fear a trade away of Trae will sour him on the situation here.

Griffin is great.

Johnson is being wasted, barely getting shots, limited minutes and being forced to do things to cover for others' wants/needs.

I've over Capela and I'm not sold on Bogi's health.  

 

It is what it is. Trae is amazing, but if the Hawks do walk away from him at this point, I'm okay with it.  His impact is no longer in line with his stats. He needs to grow up and see the team game or we need to move on.  

I take no pleasure in writing this. I've been a huge fan of his before he got here but I'm a Hawks fan first.

A lot of karma talk.  I'm willing to be patient with Trae.  He does things that very few people can do, and at his age we got a little more time to let him mature.  
I actually think there is a possibility of good karma from trading Huerter.  Everyone sees his hot start that coincided with our need for more wing shooting and bench scoring.  Now that AJ and Bogi are filling those roles well, crushing it actually, it's easy to make a case that Huerter was redundant.  We did him a favor by putting him in a place to blossom.  That brings good karma.  

[Wretch]

How I feel about Trae, 25+ games in...

These are scorers:

These are playmakers:

Trae's court vision and his ability to pass is comparable to anyone on the second group.  His range and ability to score is comparable anyone in the first group.  You can't make the same two arguments for any of the players pictured.  In my opinion, that qualifies him as a bit more than a "shoot first" combo guard (which is the very definition of the first group).

He's not perfect.

All six of the scorers pictured are stronger and more athletic.  Without looking at the stats, I'm going to say they are better rebounders.  All of them are arguably better finishers at the basket.  [All four of the playmakers pictured are better defenders, better floor generals, and better leaders.  Most of the players on either list have far better shot selection and maturity.]  However, shot selection and maturity are not skills or talents.  These are conscious choices and are {keyword} coachable.   

Prime Stockton, Jackson, and Paul are all comparable to Trae in height/weight (giving ~10lbs)...and their size did not limit them.  Stockton and Hornacek were an undersized, unathletic starting backcourt and made the finals in a very physical and competitive league.  Those complaining about Trae's size as a limitation have the exact same energy as those who argued with me about Chris Paul's size prior to the 2005 Draft - with the difference being that we have witnessed Trae shred the NBA for going on 5 years now.

My opinion on Trae, 25+ games in...though I didn't need that many games for this, is that he is an absolutely phenomenal player.  However, he can and must improve everything in bold-italicized text within the blue brackets [ ] above.  These are valid criticisms but they do not invalidate his talent, they are not the sole reason for our struggles, and we cannot say for certain whether or not he will change for the better.  Because of his talent level, I'm willing to see it through and unwilling to entertain him as a scapegoat.

Next for me: DJM and Hunter

[EazyRoc]

I think it’s time to put together a package for a real big. It sucks we didn’t get Ayton. It’s clear now Clint Capela overacheived. Trae isn’t perfect but it’s crazy to believe he’s the problem. Problem is we haven’t fixed the hole at C we’ve had since last year.

[Diesel]

40 minutes ago, Wretch said:

How I feel about Trae, 25+ games in...

These are scorers:

These are playmakers:

Trae's court vision and his ability to pass is comparable to anyone on the second group.  His range and ability to score is comparable anyone in the first group.  You can't make the same two arguments for any of the players pictured.  In my opinion, that qualifies him as a bit more than a "shoot first" combo guard (which is the very definition of the first group).

He's not perfect.

All six of the scorers pictured are stronger and more athletic.  Without looking at the stats, I'm going to say they are better rebounders.  All of them are arguably better finishers at the basket.  [All four of the playmakers pictured are better defenders, better floor generals, and better leaders.  Most of the players on either list have far better shot selection and maturity.]  However, shot selection and maturity are not skills or talents.  These are conscious choices and are {keyword} coachable.   

Prime Stockton, Jackson, and Paul are all comparable to Trae in height/weight (giving ~10lbs)...and their size did not limit them.  Stockton and Hornacek were an undersized, unathletic starting backcourt and made the finals in a very physical and competitive league.  Those complaining about Trae's size as a limitation have the exact same energy as those who argued with me about Chris Paul's size prior to the 2005 Draft - with the difference being that we have witnessed Trae shred the NBA for going on 5 years now.

My opinion on Trae, 25+ games in...though I didn't need that many games for this, is that he is an absolutely phenomenal player.  However, he can and must improve everything in bold-italicized text within the blue brackets [ ] above.  These are valid criticisms but they do not invalidate his talent, they are not the sole reason for our struggles, and we cannot say for certain whether or not he will change for the better.  Because of his talent level, I'm willing to see it through and unwilling to entertain him as a scapegoat.

Next for me: DJM and Hunter

Great post Wretch.   The truth is the only player in modern history that can do what Trae does is James Harden.  He should have been MVP twice maybe three times.   At Age 25, Stockton had just started starting.  Mark Jackson doesn't belong in the conversation and neithe does Baron Davis. 

IMO, Rose wasn't as good a scorer.   I think we talk about Trae finishing around the rim and we forget about the GOAT FLOAT.  His Floater is excellent.   Moreover, I doubt that there will be any player in history that will finish with as many LOBS as Trae will have....probably by the end of next year. 

He's indeed a UNICORN.

 

 

[Diesel]

24 minutes ago, EazyRoc said:

It’s clear now Clint Capela overacheived.

 

IF anything.. Last year is the outlier. 

 

[Wretch]

56 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Great post Wretch.   The truth is the only player in modern history that can do what Trae does is James Harden.  He should have been MVP twice maybe three times.   At Age 25, Stockton had just started starting.  Mark Jackson doesn't belong in the conversation and neithe does Baron Davis. 

IMO, Rose wasn't as good a scorer.   I think we talk about Trae finishing around the rim and we forget about the GOAT FLOAT.  His Floater is excellent.   Moreover, I doubt that there will be any player in history that will finish with as many LOBS as Trae will have....probably by the end of next year. 

He's indeed a UNICORN.

 

 

He is most certainly a unique player.

I probably should clarify "finishing at the basket."  I'm talking about above the rim play and taking contact to finish.  Maybe Kyrie isn't so athletic, but he's S-Tier in terms of finishing wizardry.  I picked those guys in particular though because they embody what most consider a "combo guard" or a "shooting point guard."  They are the epitome of "shoot first" point guards.  They're not Trae and Trae is not that.

Also...I consider the floater more of a midrange shot...but it is a reliable finisher in the paint. 

[AHF]

20 hours ago, sturt said:

I'm the one with the green foil.... you know, since I'm the Marshall alum.

 

 

 

I’m the colorblind one who can’t really tell the foils apart.