Take the 25 game pledge (... or if not, modify it to suit your own convictions... )

[macdaddy]

11 minutes ago, Wretch said:

Furthermore on Hunter...
I have watched this dude for years now and I know what he can do (and what he needs to improve on).  He has worked on his midrange game and I'm seeing results this season.  These are not the highlights of a mediocre player:

Hunter is doing this kind of stuff a lot and he's doing it while playing behind Trae and DJM in the offense - while also fitting between Collins and Cap/PNR.  The thing is, scorers need touches...they need to shoot.  The best scorers improve the more you feed them. 

I'm not saying that you can build a team around Hunter the way you would a Tier 1 star.  I'm saying that he is going to be a better fit in a system that doesn't have two ball-dominant guards.  I personally believe he will shine given more touches.  I feel like he is a legit starter and could be a key starter on any championship team.

I just looked at the last game but my problem with him his he rarely plays a complete offensive game.  It's usually one big quarter.    24 pts in the bucks game. 11 points in the second half on 28% shooting and 2 points in the 4th quarter both from the line.  0-3 in the fourth.  

[Wretch]

12 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I just looked at the last game but my problem with him his he rarely plays a complete offensive game.  It's usually one big quarter.    24 pts in the bucks game. 11 points in the second half on 28% shooting and 2 points in the 4th quarter both from the line.  0-3 in the fourth.  

I don't disagree.  I just think that it has more to do with his touches and getting into a rhythm.  All the greats say that the game is 50% physical and 50% psychological.  With Hunter, the physical tools are there and the skill is there.  It's the consistency and that's a mental game that is usually improved with additional touches. 

He's good for an efficient 15-18ppg.  His rebounding should be higher being that big and athletic, but the tools are there for it.  He's also a solid defender.  I believe the system and the players we have are blockers for his growth.  In the right system with more touches, I think there's there's untapped potential in him.  Here, he's most effective as a spot up shooter...but there's more to his game than that.  Which is why I'd swap his productivity with someone who primarily JUST shoots.

[kg01]

I like Hunter.

I like what he gives on his good nights.

The quantity of good (and sometimes great) nights is far too few when compared to his listless, low impact, or absent (due to injury) nights.

Sadly.

[JayBirdHawk]

48 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I like Hunter.

I like what he gives on his good nights.

The quantity of good (and sometimes great) nights is far too few when compared to his listless, low impact, or absent (due to injury) nights.

Sadly.

I've been begging for SF consistency for the last 2 years with the rotation of Huerter,  Bogi, Cam and Hunter. Too many nights with zero impact.

[macdaddy]

53 minutes ago, Wretch said:

I don't disagree.  I just think that it has more to do with his touches and getting into a rhythm.  All the greats say that the game is 50% physical and 50% psychological.  With Hunter, the physical tools are there and the skill is there.  It's the consistency and that's a mental game that is usually improved with additional touches. 

He's good for an efficient 15-18ppg.  His rebounding should be higher being that big and athletic, but the tools are there for it.  He's also a solid defender.  I believe the system and the players we have are blockers for his growth.  In the right system with more touches, I think there's there's untapped potential in him.  Here, he's most effective as a spot up shooter...but there's more to his game than that.  Which is why I'd swap his productivity with someone who primarily JUST shoots.

It seems like a lot of our players require this 'right system with more touches'.   I'm ready to have players who go out and ball.  Hunter is no spring chicken.  This is likely who he is.   The reason he isn't better offensively is he has no court vision so take away his open look or driving lane and he's just passing back out to the PG to start the play over. 

Now that sounds like i'm hating on him but i'm not.  He's a great 3&D guy.  He's not ever going to be a big time scorer in this league i don't think and that's what we could use right now.  But if Trae and Murray start to really gel then Hunter's 3&D will be just fine on this team.   

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

It seems like a lot of our players require this 'right system with more touches'.   I'm ready to have players who go out and ball.  Hunter is no spring chicken.  This is likely who he is.   The reason he isn't better offensively is he has no court vision so take away his open look or driving lane and he's just passing back out to the PG to start the play over. 

Now that sounds like i'm hating on him but i'm not.  He's a great 3&D guy.  He's not ever going to be a big time scorer in this league i don't think and that's what we could use right now.  But if Trae and Murray start to really gel then Hunter's 3&D will be just fine on this team.   

All this - just ball. Sometimes you either have the  it or don't.

[kg01]

15 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I've been begging for SF consistency for the last 2 years with the rotation of Huerter,  Bogi, Cam and Hunter. Too many nights with zero impact.

Some folks will blame Trae for this.  I laugh.

Watching our 3's brick shots and dribble the ball off their cankles.  Not sure how that's Trae's fault but whatevs. 

[Wretch]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

It seems like a lot of our players require this 'right system with more touches'.   I'm ready to have players who go out and ball.  Hunter is no spring chicken.  This is likely who he is.   The reason he isn't better offensively is he has no court vision so take away his open look or driving lane and he's just passing back out to the PG to start the play over. 

Now that sounds like i'm hating on him but i'm not.  He's a great 3&D guy.  He's not ever going to be a big time scorer in this league i don't think and that's what we could use right now.  But if Trae and Murray start to really gel then Hunter's 3&D will be just fine on this team.   

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

All this - just ball. Sometimes you either have the  it or don't.

I think where we're getting hung up here is the classic polarizing narratives of the Squawk.  On these topics, it's hard to speculate on anything but one of two binary options. 

For example:

Trae's long distance shot sucks or he's fine you just need to look at the numbers.  If I say, "we need to talk about his shot selection"...the anti-Trae shot group says, "Hell yeah we do!  He needs to stop taking those bombs!"  The  pro-Trae shot group says, "He's fine!  You just need to look at the numbers."  In reality, I'm just talking about one specific shot right at the 3pt line.  I'm actually in agreement that he should continue shooting open bombs, but there's just no in between.

Same with OO...it's one of these two positions: "We wasted a lottery pick" or "He's a fantastic player and you don't understand what he does well."  Touching on anything in between, such as my opinion that "He's a good player but he doesn't excite me" draws a lot of hate from the "He's a fantastic player" crowd and a lot of support for the "waste of a lottery pick" crowd.

It's the same with Dre, the conversation is either "He is a bad pick by Schlenk!  He sucks as a GM and is bad at drafting!" or "Give Hunter more touches!  He is literally on the cusp of becoming a breakout star!"  Neither of these things am I saying.   

Good players very seldom come out "ballin" like Trae or LeBron.  Most often, they blossom with hard work, a change of system, change of scenery, new coaches, new teammates, and yes...more touches/focus in the offense.  Is it really necessary to detail a list from Lauri Markkanen, to Chauncey Billups, to James Harden, to Kawhi Leonard, to Joe Johnson, to Kobe Bryant...and countless others (even though I kinda just did? lol).  This is a thing, despite how we feel about it.

I am not saying that Hunter is going to become as good as anybody on that list.  I'm saying that a wing player who is trying to grow as an isolation scorer in traffic...is going to struggle to do so with two ball dominant, isolation scorers ahead of him in the offense.  That, and the countless case studies that show some players blossom with time and change, are not opinions that are difficult to track.

Agree to disagree and we can revisit all this:
My opinion is that Hunter is already a very good player.  He may not be a star, I'm not expecting it, but he is no bench scrub nor is his ceiling that of a serviceable sixth man.  In a different system I do expect better scoring consistency and better rebounding numbers.  I also believe there will be little disagreement as to whether or not he could be a key starter on a contender.  We will see.

*edit - I did mention Joe Johnson and I said earlier that I think he could blossom similarly.  I believe his ceiling is still that of a 1B, like Joe Johnson though I am not predicting that is what he absolutely WILL be.

[macdaddy]

28 minutes ago, Wretch said:

I think where we're getting hung up here is the classic polarizing narratives of the Squawk.  On these topics, it's hard to speculate on anything but one of two binary options. 

For example:

Trae's long distance shot sucks or he's fine you just need to look at the numbers.  If I say, "we need to talk about his shot selection"...the anti-Trae shot group says, "Hell yeah we do!  He needs to stop taking those bombs!"  The  pro-Trae shot group says, "He's fine!  You just need to look at the numbers."  In reality, I'm just talking about one specific shot right at the 3pt line.  I'm actually in agreement that he should continue shooting open bombs, but there's just no in between.

Same with OO...it's one of these two positions: "We wasted a lottery pick" or "He's a fantastic player and you don't understand what he does well."  Touching on anything in between, such as my opinion that "He's a good player but he doesn't excite me" draws a lot of hate from the "He's a fantastic player" crowd and a lot of support for the "waste of a lottery pick" crowd.

It's the same with Dre, the conversation is either "He is a bad pick by Schlenk!  He sucks as a GM and is bad at drafting!" or "Give Hunter more touches!  He is literally on the cusp of becoming a breakout star!"  Neither of these things am I saying.   

Good players very seldom come out "ballin" like Trae or LeBron.  Most often, they blossom with hard work, a change of system, change of scenery, new coaches, new teammates, and yes...more touches/focus in the offense.  Is it really necessary to detail a list from Lauri Markkanen, to Chauncey Billups, to James Harden, to Kawhi Leonard, to Joe Johnson, to Kobe Bryant...and countless others (even though I kinda just did? lol).  This is a thing, despite how we feel about it.

I am not saying that Hunter is going to become as good as anybody on that list.  I'm saying that a wing player who is trying to grow as an isolation scorer in traffic...is going to struggle to do so with two ball dominant, isolation scorers ahead of him in the offense.  That, and the countless case studies that show some players blossom with time and change, are not opinions that are difficult to track.

Agree to disagree and we can revisit all this:
My opinion is that Hunter is already a very good player.  He may not be a star, I'm not expecting it, but he is no bench scrub nor is his ceiling that of a serviceable sixth man.  In a different system I do expect better scoring consistency and better rebounding numbers.  I also believe there will be little disagreement as to whether or not he could be a key starter on a contender.  We will see.

*edit - I did mention Joe Johnson and I said earlier that I think he could blossom similarly.  I believe his ceiling is still that of a 1B, like Joe Johnson though I am not predicting that is what he absolutely WILL be.

I think what you see in all those guys who develop into big time scorers is a desire, passion, and motor to take over games.   I think Hunter is a really good player and i'm glad we have him, but he's 25 years old.  Joe Johnson was a first option and all star at 25. Kawhi had a title and finals mvp under his belt at 25.   

I'm not really disagreeing with anything you've said about Hunter only that if he turns into a big time scorer in this league i'll be surprised.  That doesn't mean i think he's bad or a waste.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, Wretch said:

Furthermore on Hunter...
I have watched this dude for years now and I know what he can do (and what he needs to improve on).  He has worked on his midrange game and I'm seeing results this season.  These are not the highlights of a mediocre player:

Hunter is doing this kind of stuff a lot and he's doing it while playing behind Trae and DJM in the offense - while also fitting between Collins and Cap/PNR.  The thing is, scorers need touches...they need to shoot.  The best scorers improve the more you feed them. 

I'm not saying that you can build a team around Hunter the way you would a Tier 1 star.  I'm saying that he is going to be a better fit in a system that doesn't have two ball-dominant guards.  I personally believe he will shine given more touches.  I feel like he is a legit starter and could be a key starter on any championship team.

 

Dre has all of the tools physically and fundamentally, outside of great handles, to be a real good player.

His issue is desire.

Dre plays like he's very content with being "one of the guys", and isn't going to rock the boat for any reason.  Even in that Orlando game last week, Dre had that monster 2nd quarter and did absolutely nothing the rest of the game.  I think he only took 3 shots in the 2nd half.  And it's not because others took shots from him.  It's because he was content with his contribution up to that point.

He's not going to demand the ball. He's not going to sprint down the floor so that he can get himself open.  He's not going to get to loose balls because of his hustle, or grab offensive rebounds.

He's just going to be . . D-R-E

The difference between AJ and Hunter, is that you can see that AJ has that desire to be great.  You see it in AJ's movement.  You see it in his ability to be at the right place at the right time.  And you see it in his older teammate's confidence in him.

If Dre needs his own team in order to unlock his inner powers, then maybe it is best we trade him off somewhere where he can be a focal point.  But does any NBA team even believe that?

[Wretch]

41 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I think what you see in all those guys who develop into big time scorers is a desire, passion, and motor to take over games.   I think Hunter is a really good player and i'm glad we have him, but he's 25 years old.  Joe Johnson was a first option and all star at 25. Kawhi had a title and finals mvp under his belt at 25.   

I'm not really disagreeing with anything you've said about Hunter only that if he turns into a big time scorer in this league i'll be surprised.  That doesn't mean i think he's bad or a waste.

I don't think we're disagreeing then. I see passion in Dre, but not the same motor or desire to be an alpha. Which is the main reason why I don't see him as a future star. That's not what I consider Joe Johnson either. He had some passion and desire to prove himself early on, but lacked certain skills/talents to be that 1A next level kind of player.  

Joe's situation is exactly my point about Dre though.  Where JJ was a 4th option in Phoenix, he was the unquestioned alpha for us. He never had to wait on or defer to anyone and he BECAME an All Star. I'm not saying Dre is going to make an All Star leap.  I'm saying that he has TWO alpha scorers who eat right where he's trying to grow.

Kawhi is also a good example of what a great coach and system will do for a player. I'm saying coaching, system, and fit behind Trae/DJM is keeping Hunter from his best. 

[Wretch]

2 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Dre has all of the tools physically and fundamentally, outside of great handles, to be a real good player.

His issue is desire.

Dre plays like he's very content with being "one of the guys", and isn't going to rock the boat for any reason.  Even in that Orlando game last week, Dre had that monster 2nd quarter and did absolutely nothing the rest of the game.  I think he only took 3 shots in the 2nd half.  And it's not because others took shots from him.  It's because he was content with his contribution up to that point.

He's not going to demand the ball. He's not going to sprint down the floor so that he can get himself open.  He's not going to get to loose balls because of his hustle, or grab offensive rebounds.

He's just going to be . . D-R-E

The difference between AJ and Hunter, is that you can see that AJ has that desire to be great.  You see it in AJ's movement.  You see it in his ability to be at the right place at the right time.  And you see it in his older teammate's confidence in him.

If Dre needs his own team in order to unlock his inner powers, then maybe it is best we trade him off somewhere where he can be a focal point.  But does any NBA team even believe that?

LOL... see above North. We're not disagreeing either. 

[Wretch]

5 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Dre has all of the tools physically and fundamentally, outside of great handles, to be a real good player.

His issue is desire.

Dre plays like he's very content with being "one of the guys", and isn't going to rock the boat for any reason.  Even in that Orlando game last week, Dre had that monster 2nd quarter and did absolutely nothing the rest of the game.  I think he only took 3 shots in the 2nd half.  And it's not because others took shots from him.  It's because he was content with his contribution up to that point.

He's not going to demand the ball. He's not going to sprint down the floor so that he can get himself open.  He's not going to get to loose balls because of his hustle, or grab offensive rebounds.

He's just going to be . . D-R-E

The difference between AJ and Hunter, is that you can see that AJ has that desire to be great.  You see it in AJ's movement.  You see it in his ability to be at the right place at the right time.  And you see it in his older teammate's confidence in him.

If Dre needs his own team in order to unlock his inner powers, then maybe it is best we trade him off somewhere where he can be a focal point.  But does any NBA team even believe that? 

There is one thing I'll add as a difference between AJ and Hunter. AJ's primary skill set is the perfect compliment to Trae, DJM, and works far better in this system than Dre's does. A sniper will FEAST from the gravity of our midrange guys. 

[sturt]

On 12/24/2022 at 8:33 AM, sturt said:

 

We've got 5 of 7 on the road, with 4 of those being a western swing to start the new year. Upon return, the good guys get a 2 day break before the Bucks roll into the Farm.

Think it makes sense to terminate the extended pledge and start taking seriously what our eyes see beginning with that. But that's just me.

 

Good morning to gritty, patient, sober, steady, perseverant (no, I suppose it's not a word, but it should be) Squawkers no matter where you are.

[macdaddy]

15 hours ago, Wretch said:

Joe's situation is exactly my point about Dre though.  Where JJ was a 4th option in Phoenix, he was the unquestioned alpha for us. He never had to wait on or defer to anyone and he BECAME an All Star. I'm not saying Dre is going to make an All Star leap.  I'm saying that he has TWO alpha scorers who eat right where he's trying to grow.

I think this is where we disagree.  Joe was the 4th option on a good PHX team yet still showed plenty of signs that we could be an alpha scorer.   His handles and moves were far superior to what we've ever seen from Dre.  

Like North pointed out where is the desire?  Joe wanted to be that guy so he went out and found a team where he could do it.  Dre signed an early extension to continue to be second or third fiddle.  

This is a pretty good look at what folks thought of Joe around the league when he was in PHX.  I don't think there is a comparison.  

 

[Spud2nique]

The 25 game pledge….

 

We on to game 36 now. I wanna drop kick this thread along with Nate.

Soberly of course. #gopher

Edited December 29, 2022 by Spud2nique

[sturt]

3 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

The 25 game pledge….

 

We on to game 36 now. I wanna drop kick this thread along with Nate.

Soberly of course. #gopher

 

Sorry to leave you out of those I wished 'good morning' to... but that group deserves recognition for their recognition of the laws of nature as they apply to the NBA context.

Shakesing your fist at the clouds for the downpours may make one feel better, but you're not going to learn anything about how well the team can really play until they have a dry court without all those water puddles that effect dribbling and make for lousy traction as you try to run up and down the court, not to mention how all that water tends to affect shooting and passing/catching passes.

[Wretch]

3 hours ago, macdaddy said:

I think this is where we disagree.  Joe was the 4th option on a good PHX team yet still showed plenty of signs that we could be an alpha scorer.   His handles and moves were far superior to what we've ever seen from Dre.  

Like North pointed out where is the desire?  Joe wanted to be that guy so he went out and found a team where he could do it.  Dre signed an early extension to continue to be second or third fiddle.  

This is a pretty good look at what folks thought of Joe around the league when he was in PHX.  I don't think there is a comparison.  

 

We're still in agreement on Hunter.    First, I am ~NOT~ a Hunter "stan" as some people like to use the word.  I don't see him as an alpha scorer either.  I do not think there is any direct comparison to JJ.  They are two completely different players.  Despite being the same size, JJ was 100% guard and Hunter is 100% forward.  JJ was a sniper, could run the offense, and was good at backing guys down and shooting in midrange.  Hunter is more athletic and his game is more physical.  Joe was always criticized for his inability to draw fouls - some suggested that this was one of the key things that kept JJ from reaching that next level. 

Again, I'm not comparing the game of these two.  I'm only saying that there is a similarly in their situations.   In the same way JJ benefitted greatly from moving from 4th option to 1st, Hunter is also playing behind multiple players and could benefit from moving up from 3rd option (4th if you count JC looking for his touches).  Especially in a different system without two ball-dominant guards.

JJ is an alpha scorer, but a definite 1B.  I think Hunter is a very good role player that ~could be~ a 1B in the right system and with the right coach.  He has zero chance of being that playing behind Trae and DJM.  Again, I'm not a Hunter fan and in no way am I saying that Hunter is going to break out into this amazing multi-time All Star.  I'm saying he's not trash and has the tools to be a better and more consistent player than we've seen - and what we've seen is still pretty good.

[Spud2nique]

13 minutes ago, sturt said:

Shakesing

 What you and him do together is none of my business. 

 

14 minutes ago, sturt said:

dry

Eww

 

14 minutes ago, sturt said:

water puddles

Oooohhh  ruff stuff? 
 

16 minutes ago, sturt said:

but you're not going to learn anything

From you… clearly. 

[sturt]

7 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

From you… clearly. 

We agree.