The Official NBASupes, Sothron, and theCampster Insider Thread - NBA 2022-23 Season

[bleachkit]

28 minutes ago, Diesel said:

KD is a straight killer.   Book is a straight Killer.  If they get consistency from Beal, I think they can run through the West. 

 

There's only one basketball. I fail to see what skill Beal has that would compliment great scorers like KD and Booker. They need defense and toughness. 

[Diesel]

This is crazy talk.

Siakim is not much better than Collins if he is at all.   He can't shoot from distance... and he's making 38 Million in his last yr of his deal.   PASS!!!

 

[Spud2nique]

3 hours ago, ABH said:

Why didn't suns win it all this year?

Cuz they didn’t have Beal.. duh  

[Spud2nique]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

Siakim is not much better than Collins if he is at all. 

Skill wise he’s better. He’s got a lot of moves. JC doesn’t have too many moves. I’m Hawk biased most of the time but I’ll go ahead and say Siakam is the better overall player. If I were to rate them:

Siakam : 86/100

JC: 79/100

Again, this is my own rating system in my own view. And I love JC when he’s on. Just being here.

 

If we make a big splash which I think we won’t, I’d like a Raptor (OG or Siak)

 

[Sothron]

Siakim is a worse three point shooter but he has an actual game inside the three point line and is a better defender than JC although JC has really caught up to him. 

They are almost the same player but Siakim has more of an actual game. I love JC but he doesn't have a good handle and frankly any chance of developing low post or mid range game is simply not there with Capela and DJM on the court. 

[sturt]

What the 2-man net points number suggests, particularly over the course of 3 seasons with a variety of other players and even coaches in the mix...

Between their combined defense and their combined offense (we tend to look only at offense, by any honest observer's assessment), the JC/CC duo are consistently among the most effective on the entire team.

I respect others holding other opinions based on their eyeballing certain video clips. But the focus on offense misses, by definition, a whole other half of that picture.

 

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Skill wise he’s better. He’s got a lot of moves. JC doesn’t have too many moves. I’m Hawk biased most of the time but I’ll go ahead and say Siakam is the better overall player. If I were to rate them:

Siakam : 86/100

JC: 79/100

Again, this is my own rating system in my own view. And I love JC when he’s on. Just being here.

 

If we make a big splash which I think we won’t, I’d like a Raptor (OG or Siak)

 

Moves... where. 

JC is not a weak Post player.   In fact, he's one of the better post players in the league.   JC has a face up game and a back to the basket game. 

JC had a bad shooting year last year, probably due to the finger.   But usually, JC is much better from distance than Siakam. 

Offensively, I believe Siakam may be able to create for himself better.  Siakam is a great break scorer and really good with the ball in his hands going downhill.   This is the offensive area that he's better.   Again, I am not quick to say that we won't be doing any of that because it's Quin's offense/defense.   However, if Quin is expecting us to run, then I can see this being the place that Siakam is better and will pay big Dividens.   But that difference in price on an expiring is a lot. 

 

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, Sothron said:

Siakim is a worse three point shooter but he has an actual game inside the three point line and is a better defender than JC although JC has really caught up to him. 

They are almost the same player but Siakim has more of an actual game. I love JC but he doesn't have a good handle and frankly any chance of developing low post or mid range game is simply not there with Capela and DJM on the court. 

I will agree with you that Siakim has a better handle than JC.  However, you threw Low post and Midrange game in there.  Nah.   If you give JC the ball in the Low post or Midrange, that's 2 points.   The difference between Siakam and JC is that you have to give JC the ball in those spots.   Whereas, Siakam can get to those spots on his own.   If you give him the ball at the top of the key, Siakim will get downhill and score in his spot.   JC's handle isn't that good or hasn't been that good.   So that's the offensive difference I see. 

Defensively, JC is not so bad. I think him and Siakim are closer than most would say.  I like Siakams wiriness. He doesn't get pushed around as easy.  However, JC plays most midrange and post players well. 

The real question is do you give JC a chance to work on his handles or do you pay 18 more Million for Siakim?

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

What the 2-man net points number suggests, particularly over the course of 3 seasons with a variety of other players and even coaches in the mix...

Between their combined defense and their combined offense (we tend to look only at offense, by any honest observer's assessment), the JC/CC duo are consistently among the most effective on the entire team.

I see a bit of a different story in your nimbers Sturt.  It's a story that we can certainly learn from.

 

20-21  = 7.1

21-22 = 5.2

22-23 = 1.6

These numbers are positive and that was your focus.   

My focus are that these numbers are in decline.   Why are they in Decline Diesel?  Coaching and Personnel changes. 

IN 20-21, we mostly had LP's offense in use.  I believe LP was a lot more creative offensively than Nate.  So LP was able to use both JC and CC in the halfcourt game even though CC received more 1-5 PNR.

In 21 -22, Nate takes over.  Less Creative.  More 1-5 PNR and isoball. 

In 22-23,   JC coming off of injury and was less effective on offense. 

In my story telling here, I'm suggesting that JC and CC's defense remains pretty constant.  Maybe there's more numbers that can say different.  But my contention is that these numbers speak to the change in coaching.  Personnel also.   Losing Kev and getting DJM has an effect too.   And in 20-21, playing Hill a lot more meant more touches for JC.

[JTB]

23 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I will agree with you that Siakim has a better handle than JC.  However, you threw Low post and Midrange game in there.  Nah.   If you give JC the ball in the Low post or Midrange, that's 2 points.   The difference between Siakam and JC is that you have to give JC the ball in those spots.   Whereas, Siakam can get to those spots on his own.   If you give him the ball at the top of the key, Siakim will get downhill and score in his spot.   JC's handle isn't that good or hasn't been that good.   So that's the offensive difference I see. 

Defensively, JC is not so bad. I think him and Siakim are closer than most would say.  I like Siakams wiriness. He doesn't get pushed around as easy.  However, JC plays most midrange and post players well. 

The real question is do you give JC a chance to work on his handles or do you pay 18 more Million for Siakim?

John Collins is in year 5 going into year 6. He has displayed time and time again that he cannot dribble. This isn’t one of those situations where you allow him “to work on his handling” ….he’s just not that kind of 4. He’s a lot more traditional with other gifts.

Its possible Collins would be a lot better in Synders ball and player movement system but even then you still need players you can trust to put the ball on the floor at times and get to the spots they need to especially when there’s a mismatch.

Siakam isn’t just a better handler than collins he’s more aggressive. He can literally move a small body in the post when there’s a mismatch whereas we’ve seen guards hold collins in place forcing him to shoot over them rather than backing them down for easier basket.

Siakam is better at individual parts of the game than Collins. Collins biggest gift offensively over Siakam is his 3pt shooting (if he still has it)

@Sothron says Collins caught up with Siakam defensively and I disagree here. I believe collins has definitely got better but Siakam is still a better overall defender in my opinion. Not a lot better but still better in comparison to Collins.

18 mil more for a guy who can get to his spots and beat most 4’s & 5’s off the dribble, be more physical/aggressive, give me better one on one defense….yeah I’ll take that even if it’s just for 1 season.

[JTB]

4 hours ago, Sothron said:

Siakim is a worse three point shooter but he has an actual game inside the three point line and is a better defender than JC although JC has really caught up to him. 

They are almost the same player but Siakim has more of an actual game. I love JC but he doesn't have a good handle and frankly any chance of developing low post or mid range game is simply not there with Capela and DJM on the court. 

Hawks fans see Collins and Siakam as the same player but the outside nba world doesn’t see them close to comparison at all.

We overvalue every player in my opinion except for Trae. Trae is truly a gifted offensive talent we haven’t had since Nique.

[Final_quest]

48 minutes ago, JTB said:

Hawks fans see Collins and Siakam as the same player but the outside nba world doesn’t see them close to comparison at all.

We overvalue every player in my opinion except for Trae. Trae is truly a gifted offensive talent we haven’t had since Nique.

It’s hardly worth discussing. It’s almost like when the Knicks fans said Quickley could be Trae.  No one outside of a Hawks forum is comparing Collins and Siakam.  

[JayBirdHawk]

Complete this 3 team trade: 

Capela to team X

Gafford to Hawks ($12, $13, $14 mil) - Hawks reduce salary and get a backup C.

'Y' to Wizards

[KB21]

IMO, if the Hawks do make a move for Pascal, it’s because they want a big three of Pascal, Trae, and DeJounte.  Can they get it done without giving up DeJounte?

I would have some questions about fit, but if there is a coach that can figure it out, it’s Quin.  

[JeffS17]

2 hours ago, JTB said:

Hawks fans see Collins and Siakam as the same player but the outside nba world doesn’t see them close to comparison at all.

We overvalue every player in my opinion except for Trae. Trae is truly a gifted offensive talent we haven’t had since Nique.

Agree with you in absolute terms but a debate over which player is on a more valuable contract is perfectly fine. I cant say whether Id rather have JC or Siakam — I lean towards JC but I dont have that much conviction as I dont watch a ton of Raptors games.

 

Ofc if Ressler goes into the tax, give me Siakam, the better player.

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, JTB said:

Siakam is better at individual parts of the game than Collins. Collins biggest gift offensively over Siakam is his 3pt shooting (if he still has it)

@Sothron says Collins caught up with Siakam defensively and I disagree here. I believe collins has definitely got better but Siakam is still a better overall defender in my opinion.

This.

[Spud2nique]

43 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Complete this 3 team trade: 

Capela to team X

Gafford to Hawks ($12, $13, $14 mil) - Hawks reduce salary and get a backup C.

'Y' to Wizards

Capela to Portland or Houston

Hunter to Wiz

[Spud2nique]

48 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Complete this 3 team trade: 

Capela to team X

Gafford to Hawks ($12, $13, $14 mil) - Hawks reduce salary and get a backup C.

'Y' to Wizards

Capela to Portland or Houston

Hunter to Wiz

Hmm  

The Dallas Mavericks have recently been linked with the Atlanta Hawks for a trade involving the no. 10 pick in the 2023 NBA Draft. In the trade discussed by the two teams, the Mavs send the pick along with Davis Bertans in exchange for John Collins and the no. 15 pick. However, Dallas apparently has a different player they want from Atlanta: Clint Capela.

[Spud2nique]

THE BOSNIAN BEAR is on the loose. We gotta grab a thick one and he’s that. His screens are the best.

 

The Blazers have been focused on moving center Jusuf Nurkic, sources say, and this is the most crucial component in their situation. The Blazers can score, but they have to be able to defend. Lillard can’t effectively get over screens, meaning you need a versatile defensive center next to him.

 

– via Matt Moore @ Action Network

 

[SerbianHawk]

Zion is about to be traded, Hope we have a chance.