2023-24 Insider Information Thread

[REHawksFan]

21 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

It's tough to speculate because we don't know what deals are out there. Murray is probably the easier player to trade due to his contract. People should take a long at Murray's numbers while Trae was out. Very productive, almost comparable to Trae's in some respects. I reject the notion that Murray is vastly inferior to Trae. 

So because the Hawks win a few games against injured and or bottom feeder teams, that means DJM is not much different than Trae? 

That's some real bad logic there. Trae has 2 ELITE skills (passing and playmaking) while DJM is not ELITE at anything. He's above average at a lot of things but not elite. 

There's maybe one offensive skill that DJM is better than Trae at (finishing at the rim). He's also the better defender but even that's by just a small margin. 

Trae us a Top 20 player in the NBA. DJM is Top 50-65 player. 

[supermariowest]

26 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Some are going to have to see it to believe it.  If Murray is your best player, you aren’t going to be a good team.  Murray doesn’t have the gravity that Trae has.  He doesn’t have the ability to make those around him better.  It puts the onus on the front office to get players who are better than he is around him, and I don’t see him taking a back seat.  He’s got too much of that Seattle gunner attitude in him.  If Trae is your best player, you can compete for a championship because he will make almost everyone he plays with better.  

I respect your opinion and the contributions you make to the board, and I agree that Trae has considerable gravity. That said, our winning percentage has declined every year since the ECF run with Trae as our best player. Some of this can no doubt be pinned on the front office making cost-cutting moves.

Given cap/apron limitations, what is the team you surround Trae with? I know I asked you this earlier in the thread and you mentioned Okoro as a possible target (as part of the rumored NO deal). If you are the GM right now, specifically (and realistically) which players do you target? Starting five and backups. 

[REHawksFan]

16 minutes ago, aali34 said:

Only this fanbase would talk themselves into dumping the only player to lead the league in total pts and assists since Oscar as well as the guy who lead the team to its most successful postseason run in franchise history.

It's the height of stupidity.  Which is probably why a guy like Bill Simmons (and a few of our 'best' fans on here) would advocate for such. 

Best player since Nique. An actual Top 20 player in the NBA. ELITE passer. ELITE playmaker. Led the team to 2nd ever ECF and first ever wins in ECF. 

TRADE HIM AND START OVER!!!

Stupid.

 

 

Edited June 11 by REHawksFan

[bleachkit]

22 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

So because the Hawks win a few games against injured and or bottom feeder teams, that means DJM is not much different than Trae? 

That's some real bad logic there. Trae has 2 ELITE skills (passing and playmaking) while DJM is not ELITE at anything. He's above average at a lot of things but not elite. 

There's maybe one offensive skill that DJM is better than Trae at (finishing at the rim). He's also the better defender but even that's by just a small margin. 

Trae us a Top 20 player in the NBA. DJM is Top 50-65 player. 

Like many others, you ignore Trae's flaws. His career FG % is .436. That's not good. He misses too many shots. He just does. That's not going to change. How do you win a championship when your best player is a .436% shooter? Trae has to be a number 2, so he can take less shots and take better shots. Kyrie couldn't win as a number 1. It's just tough for smaller guards to be a number one option. Can Murray be a number 1? No, absolutely not, but he can put up Trae like numbers at a lesser salary, and he can capably guard his position. Overall, Murray's style might not be as flashy or as aesthetically pleasing as Trae's, but his numbers and overall impact on winning is probably comparable.

[JayBirdHawk]

Not this again. Sigh!

[bleachkit]

5 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Not this again. Sigh!

This is the Hawks existential crisis. Trae/Murray debates can only be avoided so long. 

[REHawksFan]

12 hours ago, bleachkit said:

Like many others, you ignore Trae's flaws. His career FG % is .436. That's not good. He misses too many shots. He just does. That's not going to change. How do you win a championship when your best player is a .436% shooter? Trae has to be a number 2, so he can take less shots and take better shots. Kyrie couldn't win as a number 1. It's just tough for smaller guards to be a number one option. Can Murray be a number 1? No, absolutely not, but he can put up Trae like numbers at a lesser salary, and he can capably guard his position. Overall, Murray's style might not be as flashy or as aesthetically pleasing as Trae's, but his numbers and overall impact on winning is probably comparable.

[] There's no logical argument that DJM is as good or "only slightly less than" Trae.  You can't make one. 

If you want to talk roster building, there's no rule that says Trae has to be the best player on the team. But this idea that you can just swap Trae for DJM and be just as well is ridiculous. 

[Wretch]

For the record...

I don't for one second believe that you can (or should) build a team centered around DJM the way you can with Trae. I do firmly believe that you can trade Trae for a 1A/1B at a different position and be no worse off offensively with DJ at the point...and better on the defensive end.

He's a good PG.

[Packfill]

If the Hawks could trade Trae for someone like Devin Booker I am all in on that type of move (since I am getting an alpha scorer back and ), but I would not be in on a trade for a package of good players and future picks.  

IF I were GM I definitely would be prioritizing a Murray trade this off-season.  I don't think the Suns would do it but I would move Murray and the #1 pick (or OO) for Booker if I could.  

[bleachkit]

12 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

[] There's no logical argument that DJM is as good or "only slightly less than" Trae.  You can't make one. 

If you want to talk roster building, there's no rule that says Trae has to be the best player on the team. But this idea that you can just swap Trae for DJM and be just as well is ridiculous. 

Do you know what Dejounte's career Hawks numbers are when Trae is out? 25.1 points, 8.9 assists, 5.7 rebounds. That's 35 games, hardly a small sample size. I don't what metrics you are using, but statistically he has provided reasonably similar production while Trae is out. I guess your argument is qualitative, not quantitative. 

[Sothron]

I would be shocked if they trade #11. 

[REHawksFan]

14 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Do you know what Dejounte's career Hawks numbers are when Trae is out? 25.1 points, 8.9 assists, 5.7 rebounds. That's 35 games, hardly a small sample size. I don't what metrics you are using, but statistically he has provided reasonably similar production while Trae is out. I guess your argument is qualitative, not quantitative. 

35 games? Really?

He has 200 games in the 3 years prior in SAS where he avg 16pts on 14 FGA and 6 ast. 

He's a scoring guard and a dang good one but he's not making the guys around him better. He's not creating for others.  The assessment is both quantitative and qualitative. 

 

 

[bleachkit]

10 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I would be shocked if they trade #11. 

Probably not. It's tough to get value back in a trade, plus he has a strong relationship with the Ressler family. 

[bleachkit]

1 minute ago, REHawksFan said:

35 games? Really?

He has 200 games in the 3 years prior in SAS where he avg 16pts on 14 FGA and 6 ast. 

He's a scoring guard and a dang good one but he's not making the guys around him better. He's not creating for others.  The assessment is both quantitative and qualitative. 

 

 

With the Hawks, without Trae , he has averaged 9 assists a game. That's an outstanding number. How is that not creating for others? Are you being intentionally obtuse? So Trae's assists count , but Murray's don't. Got it. 

[kg01]

15 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I would be shocked if they trade #11. 

I'll be posting from 2025 tomorrow, so I'll let you know of it happens. 

A big change from last week when I posted from 2015.  That was a big waste. 

[REHawksFan]

8 hours ago, bleachkit said:

With the Hawks, without Trae , he has averaged 9 assists a game. That's an outstanding number. How is that not creating for others? Are you being intentionally obtuse? So Trae's assists count , but Murray's don't. Got it. 

Not being obtuse at all. I'm saying that's not sustainable for him. Small sample size. Also, in just watching him play, he's not creating open looks for others. With Trae, his gravity and his passing creates opportunities for other players that weren't there otherwise. With DJM, it's just different. Yes, he got some assists in a few games, but he wasn't creating the opportunities for others. 

And all of this is beside the point because the Hawks aren't trading Trae if they have any actual sense. 

[Gray Mule]

Is it reasonable to expect that the Hawks will trade Trae?  I believe, if the right offer hits the table, he's a goner.

Will I be shocked if the Hawks trade Trae?  Yes!

[REHawksFan]

9 hours ago, bleachkit said:

With the Hawks, without Trae , he has averaged 9 assists a game. That's an outstanding number. How is that not creating for others? Are you being intentionally obtuse? So Trae's assists count , but Murray's don't. Got it. 

Also, let's talk about the Hawks and not just DJM.  

In the 22-23 season:

The highest OffRtg occurs with Trae ON and DJM OFF in over 900 total minutes.  DJM ON and Trae OFF has the lowest OffRtg.  Also has a significantly lesser NetRtg.  

 

In the 23-24 season:

Once again, the highest OffRtg is Trae ON and DJM OFF at 122.1 pts / 100.  DJM ON and Trae off is 2nd at 119 which isn't too bad.  But look at the NetRtg.  Trae ON and DJM OFF is +3.47 this season.  DJM ON and Trae OFF is -0.56.  

Over the course of the entire 2 seasons together:

Trae leads Hawks to 120.59 OffRtg and a +2.78 NetRtg while DJM leads them to 117.31 OffRtg and a -1.12 NetRtg.  

If you want data to show your position is ridiculous, look no further than this.  DJM isn't leading the Hawks to be just as good or "slightly less than" Trae.  Only when Trae is ON and DJM OFF do the Hawks have a positive NetRtg in about 1700 minutes of play.  

 

Edited June 11 by REHawksFan

[Afro]

12 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Also, let's talk about the Hawks and not just DJM.  

In the 22-23 season:

The highest OffRtg occurs with Trae ON and DJM OFF in over 900 total minutes.  DJM ON and Trae OFF has the lowest OffRtg.  Also has a significantly lesser NetRtg.  

 

In the 23-24 season:

Once again, the highest OffRtg is Trae ON and DJM OFF at 122.1 pts / 100.  DJM ON and Trae off is 2nd at 119 which isn't too bad.  But look at the NetRtg.  Trae ON and DJM OFF is +3.47 this season.  DJM ON and Trae OFF is -0.56.  

Over the course of the entire 2 seasons together:

Trae leads Hawks to 120.59 OffRtg and a +2.78 NetRtg while DJM leads them to 117.31 OffRtg and a -1.12 NetRtg.  

If you want data to show your position is ridiculous, look no further than this.  DJM isn't leading the Hawks to be just as good or "slightly less than" Trae.  Only when Trae is ON and DJM OFF do the Hawks have a positive NetRtg in about 1700 minutes of play.  

 

 

[macdaddy]

I don't want to bash DJ but geez louise.  He's been in the league longer than Trae and has played in a total of 10 playoff games as a starter.  If DJ can do what Trae has done then why hasn't he?