2023-24 Insider Information Thread

[therealist]

Just now, KB21 said:

Jrue Holiday doesn't even have a quarter of the offensive gravity that Trae has.  

agree with you there. but it doesn't change my point. elite creator PGs don't win championships as the best players on their team. it's just fact. dame, cp3, westbrook, steve nash etc

[thecampster]

I post this in the insider thread / long thread pretty much every year.  Enjoy!


https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2024/04/key-2024-nba-offseason-dates-deadlines.html

TBD (first day after NBA Finals)

• Teams can begin negotiating with their own free agents.

June 26

• Day one of NBA draft (first round)

June 27

• Day two of NBA draft (second round)

June 29

• Last day for decisions on player, team, and early termination options
  • Note: Certain contracts will require earlier decisions.
• Last day for teams to make qualifying offers to players eligible for restricted free agency.

June 30

• Last official day of the 2023/24 NBA league year.
• Last day for players eligible for veteran extensions in 2023/24 to sign them.
• Teams can begin negotiating with outside free agents (5:00 pm CT).

July 1

• Official start of the 2024/25 NBA league year.
• Moratorium period begins.
• Restricted free agents can sign an offer sheet.
• Teams can begin signing players to one- or two-year minimum-salary contracts.
• Teams can begin signing players to two-way contracts.
• Teams can begin signing first-round picks to rookie scale contracts.
• Teams can begin signing second-round picks using the second-round pick exception.
• Teams can begin exercising the third- or fourth-year team options for 2025/26 on rookie scale contracts.

July 6

• Moratorium period ends (11:01 am CT).
• Teams can begin officially signing players, extending players, and completing trades (11:01 am CT).
• The 24-hour period for matching an RFA offer sheet signed during the moratorium begins (11:01 am CT).

July 12-22

• Las Vegas Summer League.

July 13

• Last day for teams to unilaterally withdraw qualifying offers to restricted free agents.

July 27

• Start of 2024 Olympics in Paris.

July 31

• Players signed using the second-round pick exception begin to count against a team’s cap.

August 5

• Last day for teams to issue required tenders to unsigned second-round picks.

August 10

• Gold and bronze medal games at the Paris Olympics.

August 31

• Last day for teams to waive players and apply the stretch provision to their 2024/25 salaries.

September 27

• Training camps open for teams playing exhibition games outside North America.

October 1

• Training camps open for the remaining teams.

October 19

• Last day for players on fully non-guaranteed contracts to be waived and not count at all against a team’s 2024/25 cap. They must clear waivers before the first day of the regular season.

October 21

• Last day of the 2024 offseason.
• Roster limits decrease from 21 players to 18 (4:00 pm CT). Teams will be limited to carrying 15 players on standard contracts and three on two-way deals as of this deadline.
• Last day for teams to sign a player to a rookie scale extension (5:00 pm CT).
• Last day for teams to sign an extension-eligible veteran player with multiple seasons left on his contract to an extension. An extension-eligible veteran player on an expiring deal can still be extended after October 21.
• Last day for teams to complete sign-and-trade deals.
• Last day for teams to convert an Exhibit 10 contract into a two-way contract.

October 22

• 2024/25 regular season begins.

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, therealist said:

agree with you there. but it doesn't change my point. elite creator PGs don't win championships as the best players on their team. it's just fact. dame, cp3, westbrook, steve nash etc

Elite shot creators are valuable, period.  Whether they are PGs, Cs, or Wings.  

[macdaddy]

6 minutes ago, therealist said:

trae is not the best point guard in the league. defense is half the battle, and he's atrocious at it. teams almost never win with a PG as their best player, so you need one who can play make enough and play great defense. last time a true PG as the best player lead their team to a championship was in the 80s.

jrue holiday is the best point guard in the league

Is that the Jrue Holiday that Trae dropped 48/11 on in his first ECF appearance?  

[therealist]

2 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Is that the Jrue Holiday that Trae dropped 48/11 on in his first ECF appearance?  

yep but you can call him the 2 time.

being the best shot creating PG in the league does not equate to being the best PG in the league. that's all i'm saying. i like trae, i like his game, i don't think we should trade him. but to say he's the best PG in the league is homerish

[Sothron]

10 hours ago, JTB said:

This is a bummer to me…big time!

If you trade away Trae you are setting your franchise back for 10 years. Not only that…why do this in a draft year that doesn’t have a standout #1 pick!

I’m sorry but hawks are losing any Trae to the spurs trade. Getting picks back for Trae even if unprotected does nothing for us in my opinion. It would be a full rebuild mode…

kind of hard to imagine what a good trade is for Trae with the spurs when you know you can’t get back wemby ….so how on earth is it a good trade for our franchise cornerstone??….Cause we get back assets?…don’t nobody give a damn about those picks!

 

not asking for you to share anymore info @Sothron….but trading Trae makes this #1 pick underwhelming!

Now that I think about it….is this why sarr doesn’t want to come to Atlanta ?….they threw out the idea that Trae may not be here in Atlanta for him to play with ?

 

again not asking for more info to be shared just sharing my own personal thoughts. We are in the most important offseason of Atlantas history because our franchise cornerstone has 1 year left and it’s sounding like we are just going to reset instead of add.

Just because the team is considering all options doesn't mean they are going to act on it. Frankly, the fact they ARE open to looking at all options is a good thing for the franchise. Travis was fired in part because he wanted to blow things up, move Trae and begin a second rebuild. 

Now we have a FO with a lot of voices in it and no one is being fired because they are advocating for a rebuild. It is crystal clear the current rudderless direction of trying to compete without paying the LT and sending out players for nothing has failed. They know this. They are trying to course correct. 

I agree this it the most important offseason in Hawks history. I have been a Hawks fan since 1979. I cannot ever remember a time where the team could completely go in two different directions and both directions are valid. Rebuild or contend? That's the question. 

I personally think they will go the contend route because unless we got out 3 firsts back from the Spurs rebuilding is NOT an option until 2028.

[Hawkish]

4 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Just because the team is considering all options doesn't mean they are going to act on it. Frankly, the fact they ARE open to looking at all options is a good thing for the franchise. Travis was fired in part because he wanted to blow things up, move Trae and begin a second rebuild. 

Now we have a FO with a lot of voices in it and no one is being fired because they are advocating for a rebuild. It is crystal clear the current rudderless direction of trying to compete without paying the LT and sending out players for nothing has failed. They know this. They are trying to course correct. 

I agree this it the most important offseason in Hawks history. I have been a Hawks fan since 1979. I cannot ever remember a time where the team could completely go in two different directions and both directions are valid. Rebuild or contend? That's the question. 

I personally think they will go the contend route because unless we got out 3 firsts back from the Spurs rebuilding is NOT an option until 2028.

Would you want Travis back?  I’m on the fence regarding his drafting (Collins and Huerter were solid value) and his contract negotiation seemed neutral.  

[macdaddy]

25 minutes ago, therealist said:

yep but you can call him the 2 time.

being the best shot creating PG in the league does not equate to being the best PG in the league. that's all i'm saying. i like trae, i like his game, i don't think we should trade him. but to say he's the best PG in the league is homerish

Jrue is a beast but i don't see how a guy averaging under 5 assists a game could be the best PG in the league either.   Not sure what definition you are using. 

[txsting]

20 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Just because the team is considering all options doesn't mean they are going to act on it. Frankly, the fact they ARE open to looking at all options is a good thing for the franchise. Travis was fired in part because he wanted to blow things up, move Trae and begin a second rebuild. 

Now we have a FO with a lot of voices in it and no one is being fired because they are advocating for a rebuild. It is crystal clear the current rudderless direction of trying to compete without paying the LT and sending out players for nothing has failed. They know this. They are trying to course correct. 

I agree this it the most important offseason in Hawks history. I have been a Hawks fan since 1979. I cannot ever remember a time where the team could completely go in two different directions and both directions are valid. Rebuild or contend? That's the question. 

I personally think they will go the contend route because unless we got out 3 firsts back from the Spurs rebuilding is NOT an option until 2028.

Can we stop saying 3 firsts?  We traded two of our firsts and a lottery protected Charlotte first.  If Charlotte doesn't make the playoffs next year (we are talking about the 21-61 Hornets), that pick conveys to two second round picks.

[txsting]

We still have our 2016 first round pick, though it will be the lower of the Spurs and Hawks picks due to the pick swap.

[sturt]

7 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I agree this it the most important offseason in Hawks history.

Better assessed 3 years later... almost always been that we are predisposed to consider the current off-season yuuuuuuge.

But I'd argue that the standard for an off-season being a candidate for "most important" is about being at that place in the timeline where you are one or two entirely-plausibly-achieveable deal(s) away from elevating your status from playoff material to upper-tier material.

And I say that because the goal is summitting Everest. Until you're at that highest base camp from which to launch the assault on the big achievement, you're really not anywhere that is that different from anywhere else you've been.

Like the rebuild that began 7 years ago with the Dwight Howard trade, shortly after Travis took over... there was never much question that eventually that would pay some dividends, and the team would eventually thus be within some striking distance of mattering.

For now, the most important off-season... (hey, thanks basketball gods...) was an off-season that followed a silly season held in spite of a pandemic that proved nothing really... (no one should ever regard the winners of the 2020 professional sports seasons as legit b/c they were not... ).

Decisions were made based on flawed, even specious, conclusions. And a roster that could have benefited from some MLE reinforcements was, not. Same, the next off-season. Same, the next off-season.

(Why not? Well, do I need to go there? Really? Nah. I don't.)

 

For all the focus on organizational philosophy, it's a lot like debating whether the deck chairs should be on the starboard side of the Titanic or the port side... right?... as-if not nearly as consequential is the person holding court in the navigation bridge and making decisions based first on financial self-interest.

*sigh*

[Gray Mule]

3 minutes ago, txsting said:

We still have our 2016 first round pick, though it will be the lower of the Spurs and Hawks picks due to the pick swap.

Oops!  2016 is past and gone...

[AHF]

3 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Landry understands mortgaging your future flexibility for depth at the 10-15 spots does not make sense.  Hes trying to find high end talent to build around, came close with Siakam.  The idea we needed to compete last year could not be further from the truth.  It was always a development year to see who can be successful under Quin or not.  You guys act like we needed the urgency of the retirement home Lakers last year when no such urgency existed.  It was also the last year we had our pick, another reason to not go all-in on a season we had no chance to make noise… Trae is 25 but youd think hes 35 with how impatient this board is.

I don't understand how this isn't clear.  He didn't preserve any future flexibility by not spending the available $10M last year.  IT WOULD NOT HAVE PUSHED US INTO THE TAX.  EXPIRING CONTRACTS DON'T MORTGAGE YOUR FUTURE.  What an expiring contract does do is give you a viable NBA player instead of what we had last year.  

I keep seeing this false dilemma pushed over and over.  It is b********.  You don't have to choose between the tax and having Wesley Matthews on the bench instead of a useful player.  You don't have to choose between mortgaging your future and passing on a useful player to have Wesley Matthews on the team.  You can add useful players on short-term deals that don't push you into the tax.  You can add those players by trade (see the TPE) or by signing them as a FA.  Not everyone signs max 4 year deals.  Some guys sign expiring deals or would happily take $10M for 1 season over $12M for 2 seasons, etc.  

You also don't have to choose between competing and assessing the roster.  You should always be assessing the roster regardless of whether your coach is new or has been here for 4 years.  Most of the team was not new last season.  With a team like that you should also be entering the year looking to compete - not planning to  have a lost year where you don't accomplish anything of value and simply spend the year in "development."  The period to use as a time for Quin to get a look at people without caring so much about results was the 1/4 of a season he coached in 2022-23.

[txsting]

5 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

Oops!  2016 is past and gone...

heh.  2026.  I missed by only a decade

[AHF]

3 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

This is the thing Ive started to come to terms with.  Its obvious players do not like Trae nor are they itching to come play with him.  I dont know why that is but its not really that relevant.  Probably why we jumped on Murray.  To me this is probably the biggest barrier to building around him, which has been difficult to say the least.  Star level players have to want to be here.  Trae gets consistently poor survey results amongst his peers in the league.

Do you know how much it mattered whether Kyrie "wanted" to play in Dallas with Luka or not?  Not at all.  They simply traded for him.  Teams don't generally call players up and feel them out and have a feelings sharing session where they share about other players.  They simply add good talent.  It isn't that complicated.  With few exceptions, you don't need a player's consent to add them to the team by draft or trade.  It is only free agents that fall into that category and Jalen Brunson ran out of dodge when he was a free agent.  Since he didn't want to stay with Luka, the team just traded for another All-Star talent.  Didn't matter who wanted to be there.

[Sothron]

13 minutes ago, txsting said:

Can we stop saying 3 firsts?  We traded two of our firsts and a lottery protected Charlotte first.  If Charlotte doesn't make the playoffs next year (we are talking about the 21-61 Hornets), that pick conveys to two second round picks.

It was three firsts from us. Unprotected in 2025 and 2027 and a pick swap where the Spurs pick the highest in 2026. That's three firsts plus the Charlotte fake first. It was a horrible trade because Ressler's refusal to pay the LT meant this team could never contend. Trading for Murray was an all in move backed by...all out moves from the 7th richest owner in the NBA refusing, season after season, to pay the LT.

[AHF]

3 hours ago, bleachkit said:

Trae could absolutely thrive in that role. Trae as a number 1 on a championship team is tough sell for me. I think he should give on the dream of being the alpha, and embrace being the maestro. His passing wizardry is his best trait, that's what he should lean into. 

This certainly describes Dwyane Wade's career.  He played with HOFers and won rings.  He didn't play with HOFers and he missed the playoffs or was an early exit.  Most players can't do it without other standout talent.

[NBASupes]

3 hours ago, NekiEcko said:

Wow, it seems you're not a fan of Trae, @benhillboy. I sense the "ether" in that post, and while it's understandable, here's why some of us don't want Trae to leave. It's been a long journey to find a star through the draft, and trading him to another team isn't ideal. It took almost 30-40 years between Nique and Trae (1982 - 2018), and there's no guarantee we'll draft another star or attract a marquee free agent with the new CBA. We can't compare our situation to teams like OKC or Orlando either; OKC was extremely lucky, and Orlando had to endure prolonged periods of poor performance for their rebuilds.

We should be cautious about what we wish for because it might just come true, and we could end up singing the "What if" tune once more.

Ya'll extremely underrate the goat Atlanta Hawks, Al Horford. We never won without him much. We have a spurt. With Al, we had many moments. 50 win seasons, we even finished 1st in the East. Most winningest Atlanta Hawk of all time. 

[NBASupes]

This Hawk team isn't that far. 

[sturt]

12 minutes ago, AHF said:

Most of the team was not new last season.  With a team like that you should also be entering the year looking to compete - not planning to  have a lost year where you don't accomplish anything of value and simply spend the year in "development."  The period to use as a time for Quin to get a look at people without caring so much about results was the 1/4 of a season he coached in 2022-23.

I grant the benefit of a doubt that they were looking to compete, but that's where your theory kicks in that they had Plan A, and no Plan B in any shape/form.

One can only speculate that APR said, "Look, if we can make a deal for Siakim, that's fine. Hope we can get that done. I'm good with it. But even if that can't get done, I don't really care, we're not paying John Collins next season, regardless, no matter the net effect to the 23-24 season results... so whatever deal you can find, take it."

So, come to think of it... no, they had a Plan B... but counterintuitively, it was rooted in winning on the spreadsheet, no matter the cost to winning on the court.