2023-24 Insider Information Thread

[Hawkmoor]

8 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Chiming in on the Brandon Ingram discussion.

He may be a better fit with Trae than Murray. 

Some of yall want to go down with the ship with Trae Young.  Dude is selfish, will not play off the ball and hurt a teams defense.

Are The Atlanta Hawks Better Without Trae Young?

Okay, so why are the Hawks playing better without Young?

Since Murray and Young do a lot of the same things, you can take away one without taking hardly anything off the table and use the extra spot on the floor to address other needs.

Murray — albeit not as well as Young — can quarterback the offense as a primary creator. And with the spot left empty in Young’s absence, Atlanta can field more off-ball scoring, defense, and size (things they have been sorely lacking since Young/Murray teamed up).

With Young injured, Atlanta is free to give more minutes to guys like Jalen Johnson, De’Andre Hunter, Vit Krejci, and Garrison Matthews — all players who can score off-ball, are bigger than Young, and defend better than him.

Plus, since they have Bogdan Bogdanovic — a gifted two-level scorer with some underrated passing chops — Atlanta still has a sound secondary creator/backup point guard to flank Murray (or fill in when he’s taking a breather).

 That’s why, despite losing their best player, the Hawks have improved in offense, defense, and overall net rating.

Another data point that I feel is worth sharing. In 275 non-garbage time possessions, the Hawks are a +15 per 100 possessions when Murray shares the floor with Krejci, Hunter, Bogdanovic, and Clint Capela (80th percentile, per Cleaning the Glass). This lineup doesn’t tout a ton of star power. Yet they have the statistical footprint of the best lineups we’ve seen from past champions.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/matissa/2024/04/03/are-the-atlanta-hawks-better-without-trae-young/?sh=4100769f6373

Edited June 7 by Hawkmoor

[marco102]

2 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

Some of yall want to go down with the ship with Trae Young.  Dude is selfish, will not play off the ball and hurt a teams defense.

Are The Atlanta Hawks Better Without Trae Young?

Okay, so why are the Hawks playing better without Young?

Since Murray and Young do a lot of the same things, you can take away one without taking hardly anything off the table and use the extra spot on the floor to address other needs.

Murray — albeit not as well as Young — can quarterback the offense as a primary creator. And with the spot left empty in Young’s absence, Atlanta can field more off-ball scoring, defense, and size (things they have been sorely lacking since Young/Murray teamed up).

With Young injured, Atlanta is free to give more minutes to guys like Jalen Johnson, De’Andre Hunter, Vit Krejci, and Garrison Matthews — all players who can score off-ball, are bigger than Young, and defend better than him.

Plus, since they have Bogdan Bogdanovic — a gifted two-level scorer with some underrated passing chops — Atlanta still has a sound secondary creator/backup point guard to flank Murray (or fill in when he’s taking a breather).

 That’s why, despite losing their best player, the Hawks have improved in offense, defense, and overall net rating.

Another data point that I feel is worth sharing. In 275 non-garbage time possessions, the Hawks are a +15 per 100 possessions when Murray shares the floor with Krejci, Hunter, Bogdanovic, and Clint Capela (80th percentile, per Cleaning the Glass). This lineup doesn’t tout a ton of star power. Yet they have the statistical footprint of the best lineups we’ve seen from past champions.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/matissa/2024/04/03/are-the-atlanta-hawks-better-without-trae-young/?sh=4100769f6373

You can leave me out of all of this.

[RedDawg#8]

25 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Chiming in on the Brandon Ingram discussion.

He may be a better fit with Trae than Murray.  He can play off ball. Shooting 41% (before this season) on catch and shoot threes and he's improved his playmaking. He's also a good rebounder.  I'd take a flyer on him for one year to see if playing with Trae unlocks him.  If it does, you have a big wing, that playmakes and is an average defender.  If you get Herb Jones that's just icing on the cake. I'd try to keep Hunter though. I want a team with some size for once.

 

He would bring a face up and back to basket game in the mid post that we have been missing since Gallo. An element every contender needs is a tough shot maker through contact.

Makes a lot of sense when you dive into his full skillset.

[marco102]

4 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

He would bring a face up and back to basket game in the mid post that we have been missing since Gallo. An element every contender needs is a tough shot maker through contact.

Makes a lot of sense when you dive into his full skillset.

Agreed!  This is something the Hawks have been lacking since Gallo left.  We could really count on him to get a bucket in tough situations.

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, JTB said:

 I am not trying to pick a fight BUT…

Too late. @kg01 will fight in my stead at 4am in front of 711! Be there or be square!!!

 

ps Gimme the results at 9am pst

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, JTB said:

While you do still need a big man who has traditional size and strength like the Edeys and Clingans…you also need a guy who can be mobile like Sarr. There is no debating this! It’s two different styles and both are needed based on matchups! End of discussion.

 @Gray Mule suggested drafting both Sarr and Edey with another 1st we would obtain.

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, JTB said:

We have a need for both! Draft Sarr at #1 and then move back up to draft Edey.

Whoa .. I just literally.. you and gramps!

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, Hawkmoor said:

Some of yall want to go down with the ship with Trae

right here.

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, Hawkmoor said:

Dude is selfish,

Assist king overall the last half decade in the entire league. 
 

He wants nothing but to assist his teammates, literally and figuratively.

[terrell]

20 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

 @Gray Mule suggested drafting both Sarr and Edey with another 1st we would obtain.

If not Edey, how about this guy?

He might be a steal for some team mid lottery..

He's taller bigger and longer than Sarr .

He can block shots, catch lobs, and hit the 3..

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

3 hours ago, terrell said:

If not Edey, how about this guy?

He might be a steal for some team mid lottery..

He's taller bigger and longer than Sarr .

He can block shots, catch lobs, and hit the 3..

 

 

I wanted this guy with the Kings pick. Stupid Kings!

[JayBirdHawk]

5 hours ago, Jody23 said:

 

Sounds more likely to me like Hawks have set the value of trading for #1 high and teams don't want to pay it.

[deester11]

53 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Sounds more likely to me like Hawks have set the value of trading for #1 high and teams don't want to pay it.

Yep.  And as usual they want the Hawks to get pennies on the dollar.  

[thecampster]

5 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

Some of yall want to go down with the ship with Trae Young.  Dude is selfish, will not play off the ball and hurt a teams defense.

Are The Atlanta Hawks Better Without Trae Young?

Okay, so why are the Hawks playing better without Young?

Since Murray and Young do a lot of the same things, you can take away one without taking hardly anything off the table and use the extra spot on the floor to address other needs.

Murray — albeit not as well as Young — can quarterback the offense as a primary creator. And with the spot left empty in Young’s absence, Atlanta can field more off-ball scoring, defense, and size (things they have been sorely lacking since Young/Murray teamed up).

With Young injured, Atlanta is free to give more minutes to guys like Jalen Johnson, De’Andre Hunter, Vit Krejci, and Garrison Matthews — all players who can score off-ball, are bigger than Young, and defend better than him.

Plus, since they have Bogdan Bogdanovic — a gifted two-level scorer with some underrated passing chops — Atlanta still has a sound secondary creator/backup point guard to flank Murray (or fill in when he’s taking a breather).

 That’s why, despite losing their best player, the Hawks have improved in offense, defense, and overall net rating.

Another data point that I feel is worth sharing. In 275 non-garbage time possessions, the Hawks are a +15 per 100 possessions when Murray shares the floor with Krejci, Hunter, Bogdanovic, and Clint Capela (80th percentile, per Cleaning the Glass). This lineup doesn’t tout a ton of star power. Yet they have the statistical footprint of the best lineups we’ve seen from past champions.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/matissa/2024/04/03/are-the-atlanta-hawks-better-without-trae-young/?sh=4100769f6373

If Trae was the only moving piece, I would buy this.  But he wasn't. There were other injuries before Feb 24th that played a role and there was the insistence to stick with Bey who was giving up 3's at an alarming rate.  On court/off court is a slightly better measure.

As a Trae Stan, my opinion is biased, I'll grant but some folks noticed some chinks in my Trae armor last year. I've got a real problem with how much whining he does, how much jawing with the referees and I think that does cost us some games.

There was a real difference in foul calling (eye test) after he went out last year. We started getting the benefit of the whistle and Dre started complaining less about it. Not trying to bag on Trae. My biggest issue with him is not his play or arguing if he makes an impact. My biggest issue now is the giant contract. We need to be getting superstar value when we toss out superstar contracts.

[Hawkish]

5 hours ago, terrell said:

If not Edey, how about this guy?

He might be a steal for some team mid lottery..

He's taller bigger and longer than Sarr .

He can block shots, catch lobs, and hit the 3..

 

 

Since he hangs out at the 3-point line, I couldn’t help but to think of Channing Frye, but his movement in space is probably more somewhere between Lively and Tyson Chandler.  That would certainly have a role in the NBA.  The only thing I recall seeing more defined in Sarr’s highlights was intentional dribbling in the open court.  
 

Where would you pick him?

[bird_dirt]

11 hours ago, Bonzaii58 said:

But it’s time to make hard decisions about players like Hunter, OO, and Capela. We have a lot of low spades that aren’t moving the needle for us, especially if we want to keep Trae. 

Low spades. I like that analogy .
Good one!

[AHF]

12 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

I don't see how you can't believe he would decrease his mid range under Quin. You're even saying he's a bigger version of DJM and DJ has decreased his midrange from 38% last year to 28% this year. And increased his 3pt from 30% to 38%. 

But you can't believe BI would do so?

Also, wasn't the biggest issue with DJ / Trae fit on the defensive end? Because DJM was too small to guard SGs? BI isn't too small. 

On offense, the fit issue was the your turn my turn because DJM is a PG and plays like a PG. BI isn't a PG and doesn't try to play like one. 

It just seems to me like BI doesn't have the same deficiencies that DJM does. And the one area they are similar, is the one area Quin will absolutely fix. 

Saying you can't believe he'll stop the mid range when we've seen DJM do just that seems like you are fixating on the negative rather than believing in Quin. 

As an aside, I share the concern over the potential contract, but I think the one year trial is a risk I'm willing to take as long as the deal includes Herb. I look at it as DJM for Herb and Nance. 

First, let me point out that the primary thrust of my post was rejecting the myth that BI took more midrange shots only when he didn’t have a real PG playing with him.  As I pointed out, he made that change while Lonzo was still the starter in NO.

Second, I’ve already said I think he will take more threes under Quin and I said he might completely change his shot selection in the very post you quoted.  My concern is he will still take too large a volume of the worst shot in the game because he has actively show a preference for that.  I think DJM did that and it capped his offensive efficiency.  So an improvement like DJM could leave him better but still too midrange focused.  But I can’t predict the future so I don’t know for sure.  If we get him, I’ll certainly root for that.

On the trial run, I’ve already said I’m good with that as long as we are paying for a trial run and not trading for him as if he is a longterm guy.  He could be but only if we pay a lot to keep him.  The price needs to reflect that so that what we give up is primarily balanced against Herb with some additional consideration for a trial run with Bi and none for Nance who is filler.

[KB21]

If Trae had walked up the court and asked out of the game the way Luka did last night, he’d be getting crucified by the media today.  

[REHawksFan]

11 minutes ago, AHF said:

My concern is he will still take too large a volume of the worst shot in the game

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you because this statement doesn't coexist with this:

12 minutes ago, AHF said:

I said he might completely change his shot selection

So which is it? Is Quin changing his shot selection or is he taking too many middys? 

I think Quin changes his shot diet and BIs size is the biggest difference in him not being the fit problem with Trae that DJM is. 

[Final_quest]

21 minutes ago, bird_dirt said:

Low spades. I like that analogy .
Good one!

Stood out to me as well.  In the BI+Jones trade, it's hard to complain about BI being a highly paid and low performing star.  We're giving up much the same thing except we're getting back the top rated wing defender in the league signed to a very nice contract.  GIving up on that so you can draft Sarr over Clingan, you have to really love Sarr or really hate Clingan.  

I'm in the camp that BI is a better fit for us and better player than his current reputation suggests.  Sarr is much more of a fantasy than reality, but there is a good reason people project him #1.  I thought Clingan was a Jakob Poeltll, but realized there was more to his game and if Snyder thinks he is the right piece I am down.  Concerned about his foot issue more than anything with his game.  

A lot of questions about if Sarr can even play center.  For all the crap Capela gets, he was our best defender and best rebounder last year by the numbers.  We're going to improve our defense by starting Okongwu and having Sarr/Bruno as backups?  Also, passing on Herb Jones to protect the potential of Sarr?  Analysts are calling the talent in this draft flat for a reason.  You guys are giving up a lot for the Sarr hype machine.