2023-24 Insider Information Thread

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

5 things to watch for from the Hawks

1. The Murray sweepstakes. There are serious suitors for him. It's finally going to happen. 

2. #1 overall pick. Do we keep it, do we trade it. 

3. Capela sweepstakes. He's very available and Atlanta is looking to shed salary. 

4. Hunter, for the first time, there is a legit chance he could be moved. While I have this in the 55th percent range, that's much higher than it's ever been previously. Like usual, offers matter and Atlanta isn't giving away Hunter. 

5. Watch for trades for players like Garrison Matthews or a stud young prospect AJ Griffin. Matthews is a player teams have called about and he could be packaged. 

All things we knew.

[Afro]

Andy Kelly, on Locked On, made the point that getting a starter, even if they're not the BEST guy in the draft, should be the #1 goal since we have no more picks. 

I fully agree with this sentiment, but I think it ignores the fact that Clingan, IMO, has just as many "didn't work out" landmines as Sarr does. 

Theyre just all injury/conditioning/playstyle related and not "Does this guy fit in between JJ and OO? Or what if his skills dont improve?"

[KB21]

I was listening to Sam and Bryson doing their mock draft on the Game Theory podcast this morning on my drive to the clinic.  Bryson made the pick for Atlanta.  He stated that he would go with Alex Sarr.  I'm paraphrasing, but he made the comment that to him, the most value archetype at the top of the draft is a stretch big who can protect the rim, and Sarr fits that archetype.  Sam chimed in and, paraphrasing again, stated that one of the more important qualities for a defensive player in the modern NBA is ground coverage, and Alex Sarr covers ground on defense with ease.  He states that this is important as more and more teams start running more 5 out offenses in the modern NBA.  He said because of this, he would also take Alex Sarr number one.  

This is where I'm at.  When I look at Clingan, I absolutely agree that he is a present fit for what the Hawks do and recognize his impressive interior defensive skills.  I also see a guy who is going to really struggle when teams go 5 out against him, to the point that he may not be playable against a team like OKC.  When I look at Sarr, I recognize that there will be issues with physicality inside early on.  I recognize that he's not likely going to be an elite defensive rebounder.  The offense is probably going to take time to truly mature.  However, when he gets stronger and that offense does mature, you have a guy who can essentially do everything on the court.  Defensive, he can cover ground and take away space.  Offensively, he can create space and attack off the dribble.  

At the year 3 and year 4 points of their career, Alex Sarr will be the guy that is mentioned alongside other modern big archetypes in the NBA as what you ideally want in a big in the modern NBA.  Donovan Clingan will be a guy who you say, "He's really good, but there are simply things he cannot do on the floor in the modern game."

[Afro]

After watching his tape, listening to others opinions, etc...

I think my final take on Sarr comes down to his mentals. Which we have no way of knowing, so do your job Landry lol. 

Sarr will take time. What he does in that time is the key to me. Is he gonna be the bad Reddish who complained and jacked up shots? Or will he be the good Reddish, who wasn't there yet as a player, but came in and created havoc on both ends? 

The answer to that is all thats left for me. We all agree he will take 2-3 years to grow. Will his 25 minutes in those 2 years be nothing but boneheaded selfish play or will he be a chaos agent that accepts his role? 

All his media access makes me think it's the second, and why I think you take him and let Quin do his job. "This is your role. Do it and we will slowly add pieces to your game".

[BangHolman]

If the win now scenarios that have been discussed happen, I'm good with Clingan (or even Risacher). I can see the holes in Sarr's game where he may not be able to complete them. In that case, I wouldn't really see him as a Center, which means he is competing with JJ for time (and I'm higher on JJ as we all should be). 

My worry is just leaving the highest ceiling out there, him reaching it with someone else, and us having another draft day fail.

[KB21]

4 minutes ago, Afro said:

After watching his tape, listening to others opinions, etc...

I think my final take on Sarr comes down to his mentals. Which we have no way of knowing, so do your job Landry lol. 

Sarr will take time. What he does in that time is the key to me. Is he gonna be the bad Reddish who complained and jacked up shots? Or will he be the good Reddish, who wasn't there yet as a player, but came in and created havoc on both ends? 

The answer to that is all thats left for me. We all agree he will take 2-3 years to grow. Will his 25 minutes in those 2 years be nothing but boneheaded selfish play or will he be a chaos agent that accepts his role? 

All his media access makes me think it's the second, and why I think you take him and let Quin do his job. "This is your role. Do it and we will slowly add pieces to your game".

 

[BangHolman]

3 minutes ago, Afro said:

After watching his tape, listening to others opinions, etc...

I think my final take on Sarr comes down to his mentals. Which we have no way of knowing, so do your job Landry lol. 

Sarr will take time. What he does in that time is the key to me. Is he gonna be the bad Reddish who complained and jacked up shots? Or will he be the good Reddish, who wasn't there yet as a player, but came in and created havoc on both ends? 

The answer to that is all thats left for me. We all agree he will take 2-3 years to grow. Will his 25 minutes in those 2 years be nothing but boneheaded selfish play or will he be a chaos agent that accepts his role? 

All his media access makes me think it's the second, and why I think you take him and let Quin do his job. "This is your role. Do it and we will slowly add pieces to your game".

This is also another thing about Sarr. Our fan base won't have the patience if he doesn't produce right away. Some will be pissed when he isn't starting day 1 because of how they've built him up in their heads. I want Sarr, but acknowledge his ceiling is a ways off and he needs development.

[KB21]

The first play they evaluate is just absolutely sick!  Sarr is in the paint defensively.  When he sees the steal, he takes off and outruns the other team.  When he feels the defender getting close, he decelerates and eurosteps around him.  This is a guy who is 7'1" doing this shit!

[Gray Mule]

Once upon a time Atlanta was in the draft at #4, I believe.  They selected a player who had played overseas for a while.  They traded him for the #6 pick and that team's #1 pick the next season.  The player that Atlanta selected is now getting beat in the NBA finals.

This summer, Atlanta has the #1 pick in the draft.  Sarr, who has played overseas for a spell, has all the + things going for him that the Atlanta Hawks have said that they really need.  

Why don't we trade our #1 pick to someone for their #1 first round pick next year?  They might need to throw in a future 2nd round pick because their #1 pick next summer will be protected!  This makes just as much sense as some of the junk I have read.

[Afro]

3 minutes ago, BangHolman said:

This is also another thing about Sarr. Our fan base won't have the patience if he doesn't produce right away. Some will be pissed when he isn't starting day 1 because of how they've built him up in their heads. I want Sarr, but acknowledge his ceiling is a ways off and he needs development.

You're definitely right that those people will exist, but they're dumb lol. And we have a lot of dumb fans. 

I will be spending a lot of time on twitter mocking those people freaking out about a 19 year old rookie if we take Sarr lol. 

6 minutes ago, KB21 said:

 

Ah shit, I forgot about this. I gotta watch it. 

[Dragitoff]

13 minutes ago, Afro said:

After watching his tape, listening to others opinions, etc...

I think my final take on Sarr comes down to his mentals. Which we have no way of knowing, so do your job Landry lol. 

Sarr will take time. What he does in that time is the key to me. Is he gonna be the bad Reddish who complained and jacked up shots? Or will he be the good Reddish, who wasn't there yet as a player, but came in and created havoc on both ends? 

The answer to that is all thats left for me. We all agree he will take 2-3 years to grow. Will his 25 minutes in those 2 years be nothing but boneheaded selfish play or will he be a chaos agent that accepts his role? 

All his media access makes me think it's the second, and why I think you take him and let Quin do his job. "This is your role. Do it and we will slowly add pieces to your game".

I was all-in on Sarr at first because of his freakish abilities and potential.  His size and speed alone should make him a havoc creator on defense.  The only thing that's soured me on him recently his some of his comments about what position he prefers to play and how he likes to play and his desire to be a focal point on offense.  If his offensive game doesn't fully develop, I don't see him as having a higher offensive ceiling than JJ.  Certainly he could be on defense the best player we have if it all comes together, but if he doesn't want or prefer to play center, we're essentially playing a 3-man rotation at the 4/5 of JJ, OO and Sarr.  Not the worst thing in the world, but also not ideal for a #1 pick.  It's the criticism of spending such a high pick on OO when Capela was still playing at a high level, but multiplied.  If he buys into learning to improve and doing whatever is needed to help the team, he's the guy.  I hadn't thought of it like Cam, but I think that's a great way of viewing it.  If he comes in wanting to be "the man", he won't help this team like he could and certainly won't make friends in the locker room. 

[Afro]

10 minutes ago, Dragitoff said:

I was all-in on Sarr at first because of his freakish abilities and potential.  His size and speed alone should make him a havoc creator on defense.  The only thing that's soured me on him recently his some of his comments about what position he prefers to play and how he likes to play and his desire to be a focal point on offense.  If his offensive game doesn't fully develop, I don't see him as having a higher offensive ceiling than JJ.  Certainly he could be on defense the best player we have if it all comes together, but if he doesn't want or prefer to play center, we're essentially playing a 3-man rotation at the 4/5 of JJ, OO and Sarr.  Not the worst thing in the world, but also not ideal for a #1 pick.  It's the criticism of spending such a high pick on OO when Capela was still playing at a high level, but multiplied.  If he buys into learning to improve and doing whatever is needed to help the team, he's the guy.  I hadn't thought of it like Cam, but I think that's a great way of viewing it.  If he comes in wanting to be "the man", he won't help this team like he could and certainly won't make friends in the locker room. 

And in Sarrs defense, it was very clear that Cam had those issues back when he was at Duke and I haven't seen that level of "eeks" from Sarr. There are 18 year old playing pro basketball problems, but not any "where tf is your head man" problems. 

If we were still with Nate I'd be concerned that the staff just can't figure out a way to use him until he becomes *that* guy. I don't really have that concern with Quinn. Sarr does things right now where he can play 20 minutes a night and still be impactful because of those things. I have faith Quinn can build that role to start with. 

As far as the JJ, OO, Sarr pairing issue, it definitely has merit, but I'm not as concerned as others Ive seen around. While hes growing you can work Sarr into that for 20-25 mpg easily. At its peek I understand the issue, but that would mean all 3 of them are very very good and need to play 35 mpg+ each, so it's a good problem to have lol. 

Worst case at that point, trade one. 

 

Edited June 13 by Afro

[Hawkish]

7 minutes ago, Dragitoff said:

I was all-in on Sarr at first because of his freakish abilities and potential.  His size and speed alone should make him a havoc creator on defense.  The only thing that's soured me on him recently his some of his comments about what position he prefers to play and how he likes to play and his desire to be a focal point on offense.  If his offensive game doesn't fully develop, I don't see him as having a higher offensive ceiling than JJ.  Certainly he could be on defense the best player we have if it all comes together, but if he doesn't want or prefer to play center, we're essentially playing a 3-man rotation at the 4/5 of JJ, OO and Sarr.  Not the worst thing in the world, but also not ideal for a #1 pick.  It's the criticism of spending such a high pick on OO when Capela was still playing at a high level, but multiplied.  If he buys into learning to improve and doing whatever is needed to help the team, he's the guy.  I hadn't thought of it like Cam, but I think that's a great way of viewing it.  If he comes in wanting to be "the man", he won't help this team like he could and certainly won't make friends in the locker room. 

I understand this point from the optics, but there are 96 minutes available for those two roles.  If Sarr is playing 32 minutes and helping us, why does it really matter at the end of the day?

[ShayD]

9 minutes ago, Afro said:

You're definitely right that those people will exist, but they're dumb lol. And we have a lot of dumb fans. 

I will be spending a lot of time on twitter mocking those people freaking out about a 19 year old rookie if we take Sarr lol. 

This is what happens when you are the number 1 pick. You have a lot of expectations, and when there are other rookies doing better there is going to be a lot of dumb takes, whether it's deserved or not. He is 19 and needs time, but everyone expects him to at least look better than rest of players picked after him

[Hawkish]

Just now, Afro said:

And in Sarrs defense, it was very clear that Cam had those issues back when he was at Duke and I haven't seen that level of "eeks" from Sarr. 

If we were still with Nate I'd be concerned that the staff just can't figure out a way to use him until he becomes *that* guy. I don't really have that concern with Quinn. Sarr does things right now where he can play 20 minutes a night and still be impactful because of those things. I have faith Quinn can build that role to start with. 

As far as the JJ, OO, Sarr pairing it definitely has merit, but I'm not as concerned as others Ive seen around. While hes growing you can work Sarr into that for 20-25 mpg easily. At its peek I understand the issue, but that would mean all 3 of them are very very good and need to play 35 mpg+ each, so it's a good problem to have lol. 

Worst case at that point, trade one. 

 

I think Sarr having a father and older brother that both played professionally along with experience adapting to “older” play in multiple countries sets him up for success from a maturity/learning perspective.

[JayBirdHawk]

19 minutes ago, BangHolman said:

This is also another thing about Sarr. Our fan base won't have the patience if he doesn't produce right away. Some will be pissed when he isn't starting day 1 because of how they've built him up in their heads. I want Sarr, but acknowledge his ceiling is a ways off and he needs development.

Even before we got the #1 pick, I surmised that whoever we drafted would most likely be coming off the bench day 1.  

My stance has not changed even picking at 1. 

Hawks aren't a typical #1 pick team where the #1 pick is just thrown out there and gets all the minutes and starts from day 1.

[JayBirdHawk]

14 minutes ago, Dragitoff said:

I was all-in on Sarr at first because of his freakish abilities and potential.  His size and speed alone should make him a havoc creator on defense.  The only thing that's soured me on him recently his some of his comments about what position he prefers to play and how he likes to play and his desire to be a focal point on offense

I would not let tht deter me - if he's your guy - you take your guy.

It's up to the FO and coaches to sell him on the plan and how he fits.

 

[KB21]

My god Sarr is so good on defensive rotations!  Just hearing him go through his thought process is impressive.  "If I leave my man too soon, he will dump off a pass to him instead of trying to dunk" when talking about how he recognized a certain play.

Edited June 13 by KB21

[Hawkish]

30 minutes ago, KB21 said:

I was listening to Sam and Bryson doing their mock draft on the Game Theory podcast this morning on my drive to the clinic.  Bryson made the pick for Atlanta.  He stated that he would go with Alex Sarr.  I'm paraphrasing, but he made the comment that to him, the most value archetype at the top of the draft is a stretch big who can protect the rim, and Sarr fits that archetype.  Sam chimed in and, paraphrasing again, stated that one of the more important qualities for a defensive player in the modern NBA is ground coverage, and Alex Sarr covers ground on defense with ease.  He states that this is important as more and more teams start running more 5 out offenses in the modern NBA.  He said because of this, he would also take Alex Sarr number one.  

This is where I'm at.  When I look at Clingan, I absolutely agree that he is a present fit for what the Hawks do and recognize his impressive interior defensive skills.  I also see a guy who is going to really struggle when teams go 5 out against him, to the point that he may not be playable against a team like OKC.  When I look at Sarr, I recognize that there will be issues with physicality inside early on.  I recognize that he's not likely going to be an elite defensive rebounder.  The offense is probably going to take time to truly mature.  However, when he gets stronger and that offense does mature, you have a guy who can essentially do everything on the court.  Defensive, he can cover ground and take away space.  Offensively, he can create space and attack off the dribble.  

At the year 3 and year 4 points of their career, Alex Sarr will be the guy that is mentioned alongside other modern big archetypes in the NBA as what you ideally want in a big in the modern NBA.  Donovan Clingan will be a guy who you say, "He's really good, but there are simply things he cannot do on the floor in the modern game."

I hear you, KB.  I intentionally try to avoid using traditional positions (other than PG) when evaluating players.  What can the player do and how can you use it to complement the others?  Before further development even occurs, we know Sarr can run like a gazelle on the break, finish above the rim, block shots, switch at an elite level for a big, simply be a long presence in passing lanes, and at least has shown a shot foundation worth working with.  Were Horford, BLopez, etc., any better at shooting at this point in their career?  They are now legit threats for a big.  A lot to work with if the patience and grit are there…

[KB21]

Another thing that is impressive is how he stays straight up and down defensively and when going after blocks.  He rarely fouls his guy.  That was an issue with JJJ, who is the epitome of a great defender, in college.  It's also an issue with OO to an extent.