2023-24 Insider Information Thread

[thecampster]

Checking out for the day but expect rumors about Jun 26th to start dropping this weekend.  You should know by Sunday night if we're trading the pick or not and some teams will start to be name dropped with our 4 big salary targets with legit rumored trade configurations.

Edited June 21 by thecampster

[sturt]

3 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

This Hawk team isn't that far. 

I can't affirm or deny, but I only know that this week last year, impressed by the grit I saw and the chemistry seeming to form and the head coaching seeming to be something the players were excited about... that series vs. Boston forced me to say something like those same words back then.

[kg01]

24 minutes ago, AHF said:

This certainly describes Dwyane Wade's career.  He played with HOFers and won rings.  He didn't play with HOFers and he missed the playoffs or was an early exit.  Most players can't do it without other standout talent.

"NAW, ISS JUST CAUSE TRAY SUX!!" - they

Bu-wait, Liami and the vaunted heet culcha ... *gulp* .. missed the playoffs?  *gasp*

I feel weak.  Catch me, hillbilly. 

16 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

This Hawk team isn't that far. 

THANK YOU!!

Did we just become best friends?

[RedDawg#8]

26 minutes ago, AHF said:

This certainly describes Dwyane Wade's career.  He played with HOFers and won rings.  He didn't play with HOFers and he missed the playoffs or was an early exit.  Most players can't do it without other standout talent.

Not a single player: Bron, Kobe, MJ, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Curry. You name it. Not a single all time great won a championship by themselves.

Someone bringing up Jrue Holiday being the best PG because of (2) rings when he was at best the 3rd best player on those teams and sometimes was able to get away with being the 5th best player while solely focusing on playing defense.

Let’s get real and honest about what we are talking about here. Nothing is ever as simple as player doesn’t win rings, so player must suck. Ask Nique, Barkley, Reggie Miller, Nash, Baylor, etc… 

Organizations have to build teams that can win championships too. And there’s more history to suggest the Hawks have failed at doing this over their history than Trae Young can’t play winning basketball.

[JeffS17]

35 minutes ago, AHF said:

I don't understand how this isn't clear.  He didn't preserve any future flexibility by not spending the available $10M last year.  IT WOULD NOT HAVE PUSHED US INTO THE TAX.  EXPIRING CONTRACTS DON'T MORTGAGE YOUR FUTURE.  What an expiring contract does do is give you a viable NBA player instead of what we had last year.  

I keep seeing this false dilemma pushed over and over.  It is b********.  You don't have to choose between the tax and having Wesley Matthews on the bench instead of a useful player.  You don't have to choose between mortgaging your future and passing on a useful player to have Wesley Matthews on the team.  You can add useful players on short-term deals that don't push you into the tax.  You can add those players by trade (see the TPE) or by signing them as a FA.  Not everyone signs max 4 year deals.  Some guys sign expiring deals or would happily take $10M for 1 season over $12M for 2 seasons, etc.  

You also don't have to choose between competing and assessing the roster.  You should always be assessing the roster regardless of whether your coach is new or has been here for 4 years.  Most of the team was not new last season.  With a team like that you should also be entering the year looking to compete - not planning to  have a lost year where you don't accomplish anything of value and simply spend the year in "development."  The period to use as a time for Quin to get a look at people without caring so much about results was the 1/4 of a season he coached in 2022-23.

Useful bench players generally demand more than 1 year contracts.  They also sign where they want to play or who they want to play with.  Its not that complicated.  

And its water under the bridge at this point, we funny enough have the number one pick as a result of the FO not making a desperation push for a single season.  Im grateful Landry handled last year the way he did, staying cognizant this was our last pick for three years.

[kg01]

5 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Not a single player: Bron, Kobe, MJ, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Curry. You name it. Not a single all time great won a championship by themselves.

Someone bringing up Jrue Holiday being the best PG because of (2) rings when he was at best the 3rd best player on those teams and sometimes was able to get away with being the 5th best player while solely focusing on playing defense.

Let’s get real and honest about what we are talking about here. Nothing is ever as simple as player doesn’t win rings, so player must suck. Ask Nique, Barkley, Reggie Miller, Nash, Baylor, etc… 

Organizations have to build teams that can win championships too. And there’s more history to suggest the Hawks have failed at doing this over their history than Trae Young can’t play winning basketball.

My favs are the ones that chortle at the Trae-Curry comps as if the difference between the two is that Trae "won't" run off screens.

Yeah let's forget the minimum 2 HOF teammates in their prime Curry had.  And this was before adding Durant.

Bu-yeah, Trae runnin' off screens more would make up all the difference. 

[sturt]

33 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

we funny enough have the number one pick as a result of the FO not making a desperation push for a single season.

My friend, I hear that.

But do you hear yourself?

Think about your logic here...

If I'd told you last off-season that we would have the #1 pick in the 24 draft, but that would have been achieved as a result of holding a 3% chance of getting it, you and any normal person would have told me I'm nuts. Not impossible, but so so so unlikely. Only 4 other teams with less than a 3% chance had ever lucked into that privilege in the history of the NBA draft lottery.

Now, switch that but use the same logic.

What if I'd told you last off-season that the Hawks would only improve its roster by adding a mid-round 1st and by adding an MLE depth piece...but otherwise would keep the rotation intact, and would end the 2023-24 season in practically the same way that the 2020-21 team did, reasserting reason for optimism that this team was plausibly on the cusp of something special.

 

Three questions.

 

1. Both scenarios would have seemed unlikely this time last season, but one of the two did, in fact, turn out to be reality. If the one was possible, given a notable downgrade of the roster, why not the other with a decent upgrade somewhere?

The logic is the same. The likelihood of either one would stretch the imagination to some degree. "Desperation push" then seems to be just hyperbole in support of a preferred scenario.

 

2. In view of that Boston series, in fact, why wouldn't the second scenario, indeed, even be decently, fairly, plausibly believable?

 

3. I'm aware that you've hinted that you have strong relationships with people in high places, but I'm increasingly starting to wonder if I've underestimated that... that it's not merely strong relationships, and/or that those people aren't merely in high places. What about any of that are you willing to expand on, and to share?

(And please humor me if this is something you've discussed already in some detail here, and I'd just not been around to read it.)

 

Make that, four.

4. Which scenario do you prefer, given the choice? A 2024 #1 pick, or a 2024 finish that was 2021-like. And why?

[NBASupes]

There is a lot going on behind the scenes. 

Guys I know will remain

Trae

JJ

Bogi

The rooks

I think will stay

OO

Hunter 

Bruno

Guys I think will be moved

Garrison 

Murray 

Capela

 

I think Bey will return but it's all about roster spots at this time. That said, the Hawks really love Bey. 

[cam1218]

I remember during the DJM rumors during the season a comment along the lines of “we would laugh or understand” why he signed the contract when he was traded during the season. Whatever that was, is it still a thing?

[Final_quest]

11 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Useful bench players generally demand more than 1 year contracts.  They also sign where they want to play or who they want to play with.  Its not that complicated.  

And its water under the bridge at this point, we funny enough have the number one pick as a result of the FO not making a desperation push for a single season.  Im grateful Landry handled last year the way he did, staying cognizant this was our last pick for three years.

We paid up to the tax line the three years prior.  There are a lot of possible explanations for why they didn’t spend up to the tax line last year.  

I’m personally not ascribing much meaning to what happened.  Think they played a game of chicken with Toronto and lost, or Toronto verbally agreed to a deal and backed out at the last second.  Why should I get mad at our front office or Tony?  

I don’t care that they had money to spend and didn’t.  I’m glad they tried to get Siakam instead of focusing on any scrub that would sign a one year deal.  

Lastly we talk about the Huerter decision as if we broke up Shaq and Kobe.  Do ya’ll really believe a starting unit that was net negative together would have been a contender but only with Huerter on the bench?  No amount of spending turns that unit into a contender.  You guys can’t honestly believe that core failed only because of Huerter. 

I won’t bring up all the evidence of why I don’t believe Tony is as cheap as you guys say, but there isn’t a good case that either Hawks team the past two years would have been a contender with more spending.  I don’t see it at all.  They could have won a couple more games, but to me that’s not why you go into the tax.

[REHawksFan]

7 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

There is a lot going on behind the scenes. 

Guys I know will remain

Trae

JJ

Bogi

The rooks

I think will stay

OO

Hunter 

Bruno

Guys I think will be moved

Garrison 

Murray 

Capela

 

I think Bey will return but it's all about roster spots at this time. That said, the Hawks really love Bey. 

Do you think we draft Clingan at 1 or trade down to get him? 

[JeffS17]

2 minutes ago, sturt said:

3. I'm aware that you've hinted that you have strong relationships with people in high places, but I'm increasingly starting to wonder if I've underestimated that... that it's not merely strong relationships, and/or that those people aren't merely in high places. What about any of that are you willing to expand on, and to share?

What are you referring to? I dont have any connections in the Hawks org other than my season ticket rep. 
 

As for the rest of the post, I was ready to be excited about next season adding a 10-15 range pick anyways.  Obviously the 3% chance was a long shot and not reliable, but there was a ~14% chance to land in the top 4, where if the reports are true, wed probably still get our guy Clingan.  Also a long shot but the chance is much more material than your stated 3%.  
 

The difference in opinion on last season boils down to my expectations for this squad versus others.  I dont believe were winning anything or making noise until we fix major roster holes in our starting 5, which is why I do not care about deep bench spots at the moment.  Once I feel comfortable we have a core that fits and has the potential to develop together into a contender, Ill start lobbing some of the same complaints around filling out the roster and spending more.  I just dont see it right now— hoping that changes this offseason.

[JayBirdHawk]

Dejounte Murray still on Lakers' radar in trade conversations

The Pat McAfee Show: “The pressure is on the Lakers front office to make changes to this roster.. They have to be aggressive and I think Dejounte Murray will come up in trade conversations” @ShamsCharania #PMSLive

 

 

 

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

I agree this it the most important offseason in Hawks history. I have been a Hawks fan since 1979. I cannot ever remember a time where the team could completely go in two different directions and both directions are valid. Rebuild or contend? That's the question. 

I personally think they will go the contend route because unless we got out 3 firsts back from the Spurs rebuilding is NOT an option until 2028.

This is the dumbest conversation in the world, imo.  What you say is obviously true.  You either completely tear down and get all your picks back from SA as part of that or you work to win and only consider rebuilding in 2028.  If SA isn't offering our picks back to us, then you can't consider rebuilding at all.  (That doesn't mean there is any player you can't trade but does mean you are trading for value so you can win over the next 3 seasons not taking the usual path to rebuilding in trading away talent for no immediate return ala the Spurs current tanking/rebuilding effort.)

[AHF]

53 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Useful bench players generally demand more than 1 year contracts.  They also sign where they want to play or who they want to play with.  Its not that complicated.  

And its water under the bridge at this point, we funny enough have the number one pick as a result of the FO not making a desperation push for a single season.  Im grateful Landry handled last year the way he did, staying cognizant this was our last pick for three years.

Bench players take the most money in most cases.  Period.  Nobody takes a 3 year $15M deal or a 2 year $12M when they could sign a 1 year $10M deal unless they are ring chasing.

The reason they don't take the 1 year deal is because it isn't being offered.  They, in fact, do sign shorter deals for more money when that is on the table.

We've already covered a good number of useful free agents last offseason that could have been signed for that kind of offer but we didn't offer them and instead relied on Garrison Mathews, Wesley Matthews, etc. to fill in at SF and PF when injuries struck.  There were also guys on expiring contracts that could have been had for a not too expensive price with the TPE.

[therealist]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

Jrue is a beast but i don't see how a guy averaging under 5 assists a game could be the best PG in the league either.   Not sure what definition you are using. 

the assists numbers you referenced are a by-product of trae's elite playmaking, which i agree is in fact, elite. but my point is that being the best playmaking PG in the league doesn't make you the all around best at the position. the object of NBA is to win a championship, not roster a player being the very best at one facet of the game. to me, the very best PG is the one you can most easily use on a roster to win a championship. jrue holiday is a switchable guard that can play elite defense on multiple positions, create shots when the matchup calls for it, hit open shots at a high rate, and most importantly, sacrifice some of his playmaking to other players for the sake of winning (interestingly, trae is a tough matchup for him as you pointed out). i guarantee every team in the NBA would agree that winning an NBA championship with jrue would be easier than with trae.

if you look around at past NBA championship rosters, there weren't many that won with ball dominant PGs that played 0 defense. tony parker was probably the closest, but he had players around him that were much better than he was. i do think trae is good enough to win a championship, but i think he's going to need to concede his alpha role to better players and accept that his assist numbers will come down. i certainly don't think he's the best PG in the league. and i have serious doubts about whether our front office can put the perfect roster in place around him to get us to NBA contender status with trae on the roster (or without for that matter).

 

 

Edited June 21 by therealist

[KB21]

The only point guard in the NBA that is in Trae's tier as a point guard is Ja Morant.  

[Afro]

23 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

We paid up to the tax line the three years prior.  There are a lot of possible explanations for why they didn’t spend up to the tax line last year.  

I’m personally not ascribing much meaning to what happened.  Think they played a game of chicken with Toronto and lost, or Toronto verbally agreed to a deal and backed out at the last second.  Why should I get mad at our front office or Tony?  

I don’t care that they had money to spend and didn’t.  I’m glad they tried to get Siakam instead of focusing on any scrub that would sign a one year deal.  

Lastly we talk about the Huerter decision as if we broke up Shaq and Kobe.  Do ya’ll really believe a starting unit that was net negative together would have been a contender but only with Huerter on the bench?  No amount of spending turns that unit into a contender.  You guys can’t honestly believe that core failed only because of Huerter. 

I won’t bring up all the evidence of why I don’t believe Tony is as cheap as you guys say, but there isn’t a good case that either Hawks team the past two years would have been a contender with more spending.  I don’t see it at all.  They could have won a couple more games, but to me that’s not why you go into the tax.

You give them these outs like this isn't literally their job, man. 

Going for Siakim was good! 

Failing at that and saying "f*** it, Wes Matthew's!" isn't good! 

His job is to build a winner. Not to try and fail and throw an entire season away. If he can't do more than one thing at a time.... He shouldn't be an NBA GM. 

 

Edited June 21 by Afro

[Bonzaii58]

23 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

There is a lot going on behind the scenes. 

Guys I know will remain

Trae

JJ

Bogi

The rooks

I think will stay

OO

Hunter 

Bruno

Guys I think will be moved

Garrison 

Murray 

Capela

 

I think Bey will return but it's all about roster spots at this time. That said, the Hawks really love Bey. 

Thanks for sharing. I must say, I feel like we should flip Hunter for a better role player. Nothing against him, and I know he’s probably one of our better defenders but I can’t help but wonder if the Pelicans would take Murray and Hunter for Herb. 
 

What we have isn’t working - and we need a shakeup. Same for OO - if we’re not going to start him then we need to think long and hard about if we’re keeping people just to keep them. I feel like we have a higher evaluation of our own players than other FOs. 
 

keeping Trae and JJ makes sense. But we need to make major moves to surround them both with lengthy defenders who are consistent and will understand and know their role. 

[KB21]

1 minute ago, Afro said:

You give them these outs like this isn't literally their job, man. 

Going for Siakim was good! 

Going after Siakim and having absolutely zero backup plan other than *Wes matthews* is very bad. 

His job is to build a winner. Not to try and fail and throw an entire season away. If he can't do more than one thing at a time.... He shouldn't be an NBA GM. 

 

I don't think this is what you mean, but this comes across as the Hawks should have made a trade for the sake of making a trade.