2023-24 NBA Free Agency 06/30 at 6PM

[Sothron]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

Only if you are looking to make Miami contenders and happy to live with regret of your big “asset” being Ayton.  That is a huge price to pay to just put things behind you.  I’d be pissed if I were a Portland fan.  As noted above, Nurkic for Ayton by itself is arguably an upgrade for Phoenix.

Ayton is a 25  year old center with skill and talent. He's a better fit to be "the guy" or close to "the guy" for a rebuilding team. Nurkic a better fit for PHX because he boards better and plays better positional defense. He also won't rock the boat about touches like Ayton has done.

There will be picks and other moving parts as well.

FWIW I think Miami is getting a depreciating superstar player. I've always loved Dame but he's not that guy anymore and he's on a huge deal. 

[Spud2nique]

59 minutes ago, Sothron said:

I've always loved Dame but he's not that guy anymore and he's on a huge deal. 

Really? I mean, he’s still got a lot left I think compared to some aging.

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, Sothron said:

Ayton is a 25  year old center with skill and talent. He's a better fit to be "the guy" or close to "the guy" for a rebuilding team. Nurkic a better fit for PHX because he boards better and plays better positional defense. He also won't rock the boat about touches like Ayton has done.

There will be picks and other moving parts as well.

FWIW I think Miami is getting a depreciating superstar player. I've always loved Dame but he's not that guy anymore and he's on a huge deal. 

Should the Hawks get involved with Nurk and a 1st to Atlanta for CC. I know - Nurk injuries ....but still. He offers more offensively versatility and a legit 7 footer and $3.4 mil in savings.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[theheroatl]

24 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Should the Hawks get involved with Nurk and a 1st to Atlanta for CC. I know - Nurk injuries ....but still. He offers more offensively versatility and a legit 7 footer and $3.4 mil in savings.

The big question is if Toronto and Portland are engaged in a trade scenario discussion will Atlanta or Phoenix get involved at all.

 

[AHF]

3 hours ago, kg01 said:

Nurkic's constant injury issues are the great equalizer folks are missing.

But that is factored into the numbers.  You don't get a big WAR number by playing 20 minutes of good basketball like you do with PER or something.  If you only play half a season,  you only get half the number you would otherwise have gotten.  So the fact that Ayton materially trails in that metric when Nurkic misses a bunch of time isn't great.

2 hours ago, Sothron said:

Ayton is a 25  year old center with skill and talent. He's a better fit to be "the guy" or close to "the guy" for a rebuilding team. Nurkic a better fit for PHX because he boards better and plays better positional defense. He also won't rock the boat about touches like Ayton has done.

There will be picks and other moving parts as well.

Ayton is definitely younger but anyone who thinks he is a good fit to "the guy" for a franchise is in for a world of disappointment.  He has shown nothing to make me think he can be "the guy" and frankly while he isn't close to that by the numbers it is more the leadership and commitment issues that would make me very wary.

Quote

FWIW I think Miami is getting a depreciating superstar player. I've always loved Dame but he's not that guy anymore and he's on a huge deal. 

Where do you see Dame not being "that guy" anymore?   He was top 10 last season by most metrics I've seen.

I mean, Dame was so much better than Ayton last season that is kind of funny to be talking about them in the same sentence especially when you are giving up Nurkic on top of that for the privilege.  

There is definitely an argument to be made for getting a 25 year old in exchange for a 33 year old but how steep should that discount be?  I'd want more than that if I was Portland given how Phoenix has sent signals that they aren't sold on Ayton themselves.  We were talking about a JC for Ayton deal here recently and we ended up giving away JC for peanuts.  Lillard should command serious value because he can make a huge impact right now for anyone who wants to contend for a title next year and there are always people who are eager to win right now.

[Sothron]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

Really? I mean, he’s still got a lot left I think compared to some aging.

He can still get his shot off but his defense has hit the oh man level. It was never good but it was at best okay. Now he's at the point where he can't defend his position at all. He'll keep aging as a worse defender.

For us as Hawks fans ofc we don't want to see Miami get better but I'm not worried about Dame.

[Sothron]

12 minutes ago, AHF said:

But that is factored into the numbers.  You don't get a big WAR number by playing 20 minutes of good basketball like you do with PER or something.  If you only play half a season,  you only get half the number you would otherwise have gotten.  So the fact that Ayton materially trails in that metric when Nurkic misses a bunch of time isn't great.

Ayton is definitely younger but anyone who thinks he is a good fit to "the guy" for a franchise is in for a world of disappointment.  He has shown nothing to make me think he can be "the guy" and frankly while he isn't close to that by the numbers it is more the leadership and commitment issues that would make me very wary.

Where do you see Dame not being "that guy" anymore?   He was top 10 last season by most metrics I've seen.

I mean, Dame was so much better than Ayton last season that is kind of funny to be talking about them in the same sentence especially when you are giving up Nurkic on top of that for the privilege.  

There is definitely an argument to be made for getting a 25 year old in exchange for a 33 year old but how steep should that discount be?  I'd want more than that if I was Portland given how Phoenix has sent signals that they aren't sold on Ayton themselves.  We were talking about a JC for Ayton deal here recently and we ended up giving away JC for peanuts.  Lillard should command serious value because he can make a huge impact right now for anyone who wants to contend for a title next year and there are always people who are eager to win right now.

Portland should be getting picks out of this deal as well as Ayton. I'd be shocked if they only get Ayton.

Ayton is in the Cam Reddish situation in Atlanta. Cam had talent but no real shots or chance to be "the guy". The best thing for Cam then, as I said back then, was to be on a rebuilding team that could let him grow and play through learning pains and not worry about winning. Ayton is the same way. When he's gotten shots and a chance to shine he has. But those chances are few and are even worse now in PHX. 

Trade him to POR which is rebuilding and he's got all the chance in the world to show what he can do. POR has every reason to let him sink or swim. If he works out, great, he's a keeper. If he works out in numbers but still has maturity/work ethic etc issues, great, flip him for picks and prospects. 

There was never going to be a great deal for POR for Dame. There's no way you as a rebuilding team can swallow some big salary coming back and still be a rebuilding team. There's not that many truly bad big contracts in the NBA now. This way they get a young guy whose salary will work for them, they get picks and they can say they did right by one of the greatest Blazers of all time by sending him to the one team he wanted to go to.

[Sothron]

1 hour ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Should the Hawks get involved with Nurk and a 1st to Atlanta for CC. I know - Nurk injuries ....but still. He offers more offensively versatility and a legit 7 footer and $3.4 mil in savings.

I've liked him since he was in Denver. He definitely offers more on offense than CC. We could easily swap him out for OO depending on matchup/situation. CC makes more sense to PHX than Nurk frankly.

[Sothron]

Whoever Jake Winbach is on twitter posted this:

Potential four-team Dame deal • Heat Damian Lillard Nassir Little Talen Horton-Tucker • Blazers Deandre Ayton Kyle Lowry Jaime Jaquez Jr Nikola Jović 2028 1st via MIA 2030 1st via MIA • Suns Collin Sexton Jusuf Nurkic • Jazz Tyler Herro Ish Wainright 2024 2nd via PHX

[theheroatl]

2 minutes ago, Sothron said:

Whoever Jake Winbach is on twitter posted this:

Potential four-team Dame deal • Heat Damian Lillard Nassir Little Talen Horton-Tucker • Blazers Deandre Ayton Kyle Lowry Jaime Jaquez Jr Nikola Jović 2028 1st via MIA 2030 1st via MIA • Suns Collin Sexton Jusuf Nurkic • Jazz Tyler Herro Ish Wainright 2024 2nd via PHX

He’s a nobody…

 

better yet he is known for throwing hypothetical trade scenarios out

Edited September 22, 2023 by theheroatl

[kg01]

17 hours ago, Sothron said:

He can still get his shot off but his defense has hit the oh man level. It was never good but it was at best okay. Now he's at the point where he can't defend his position at all. He'll keep aging as a worse defender.

For us as Hawks fans ofc we don't want to see Miami get better but I'm not worried about Dame.

This what I been sayin', mayne!

I keep tellin folks the reason he was always having to make miracle shots was because his bad defense put them in that position in the first place.

It's so weird the losing never gets blamed on him.  They were full strength and completely unable to win even one game vs the Warriors that year Durant got hurt.  And that was how many years ago?  The only thing he is now is 4 years older and slower.  And he finna make $60mil a year soon?  Oof... 

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

his bad defense

Ya I keep forgetting Dame isn’t your typical Oakland hard nose defender he’s more of that offensive juggernaut. I’m just afraid the Heat‘s defense with swarm to cover for him, guys like Jimmy and even Haslem from the side or his skeleton will prolly hold Dame butt on the ground while the play continues…

Yeaaa the Heat have “Heat tradition” alright.. but I can’t help think there’s another name for it.

THUGGERRRRRRRYYYY. #steviehol

[kg01]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

Ya I keep forgetting Dame isn’t your typical Oakland hard nose defender he’s more of that offensive juggernaut. I’m just afraid the Heat‘s defense with swarm to cover for him, guys like Jimmy and even Haslem from the side or his skeleton will prolly hold Dame butt on the ground while the play continues…

Yeaaa the Heat have “Heat tradition” alright.. but I can’t help think there’s another name for it.

THUGGERRRRRRRYYYY. #steviehol

They'll be a solid team but folks act like it's a Finals team + Lillard.  It's not that simple.  They're rebuilding their depth pretty much from scratch this offseason.  I know they do a good job with gleague guys but let's not act like that's an automatic that all will 'hit' all at the same time 2 years in a row. 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

They'll be a solid team but folks act like it's a Finals team + Lillard.  It's not that simple.  They're rebuilding their depth pretty much from scratch this offseason.  I know they do a good job with gleague guys but let's not act like that's an automatic that all will 'hit' all at the same time 2 years in a row. 

Ya I agree. How many years in a ROW have the Heat been there.. it’s a hit or miss, one year on a few off. I mean not counting the super team with Lebron Wade and Bosh, that’s doesn’t count. Outside of that, they’ve honestly been a lot like us, not knowing what the heck we might be getting each year but..

They have a culture and we have Harry the Hawk! 
 

Advantage us.. ya I said it! 

[JeffS17]

5 hours ago, kg01 said:

They'll be a solid team but folks act like it's a Finals team + Lillard.  It's not that simple.  They're rebuilding their depth pretty much from scratch this offseason.  I know they do a good job with gleague guys but let's not act like that's an automatic that all will 'hit' all at the same time 2 years in a row. 

Their defense is going to be materially worse this year, imo.  Butler is aging, and while he generally gives a ton of effort, it's going to start showing on that end.  Kevin Love is barely playable anymore, Duncan Robinson is a complete liability, and Lillard has low key been one of the worst defenders in the NBA the past 3 years.  And most importantly, they lost Strus and Vincent, who are not necessarily great defenders, but they were two dudes busting ass on that end to get contracts.  And they were 2 of the top 6 in minutes played last year.  And to even land Dame, Miami is going to have to ship out some of their depth.

I know it's the same story in Miami every few years, where they make names out of nobodys, and Heat culture, and great FO/coaching, etc, but I really don't see them being a contender after consolidating for Dame.  My guess is they have a season comparable to what Philly had.

[theheroatl]

I definitely feel that loser Masai is star-chasing again and trying to get Lillard to repeat what he did with Kawhi. 

It's his MO.

So if I was the Blazers would I really want Siakam (no, with Grant not able to be offloaded currently).... OG? That means I have to take bum Gary Trent Jr. and other garbage? I probably would want at least 3 FRP from Toronto's stash plus OG.. that wouldn't be enough because I have to send salary somewhere but I have to take some back... so who is willing to take Toronto's other garbage while sending salary to Blazers that is valuable?

I don't see it working.

From Toronto's perspective they want to pair Lillard with Barnes & Poetl and either Siakam or OG.. they have to unload one of those two for it to work... OG is definitely the harder route to use, Siakam could be easy salary matching to flip him for an asset haul to match with FRP's from Toronto.

Nonetheless, I think Toronto will end up being the Lillard destination.. I just don't think Cronin wants to give Lillard what we wants.

Edited September 24, 2023 by theheroatl

[JTB]

I forget which national reporter said it but apparently the Raptors have serious interest in trading for Dame.

Will we see the hawks rumors flare back up to work out a 3 team trade to get Siakam ???

 

I don’t know if the numbers work but I could see Portland flipping Siakam to us for virtually nothing and just starting their rebuild like they should have done 2 seasons ago 

[JayBirdHawk]

15 hours ago, JTB said:

I forget which national reporter said it but apparently the Raptors have serious interest in trading for Dame.

Will we see the hawks rumors flare back up to work out a 3 team trade to get Siakam ???

 

I don’t know if the numbers work but I could see Portland flipping Siakam to us for virtually nothing and just starting their rebuild like they should have done 2 seasons ago 

I think if Toronto is trading for Dame it's to pair him with Siakam. It will either be OG or Barnes going to Portland.

[JayBirdHawk]

The Masai Walkaway Special!   We keep hearing he's difficult to deal with.

Raptors rumors regarding Damian Lillard trade only a leverage play?

 

NBA Central: The Raptors were deep in talks for Damian Lillard on Thursday before pulling out, per @HPbasketball “The Toronto stuff is just leveraging… I heard things were red hot on Thursday and again Masai walked away and then came back… I wouldn’t worry about the Raptors” pic.twitter.com/cgHKN07Omt

 

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