Do you like posts that are considered hot takes when in reality they are or could be true?

[thecampster]

50 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

The draft is the draft. No one knows what's going to happen or where the players will go. No one can predict that players will stop progressing or some will progress massively. That's why it's a crap shoot. 

When talking about proven players with a track record with a RESUME and FILM. We tend to be better suited for our opinions and facts as we know how they look on this LEVEL.  

Do you guys even understand what you are talking about?

I get it, the personal insults was wack, my bad. I don't do people who don't get shit the way I do telling me I am wrong when I know for a fact I am RIGHT! 

My bad campster and Jay. I didn't like anyone tell me I am wrong when I know I am right. 

I'm not trying to change your mind. I am tired of the Al love nonstop. He's not a Hawk, left the Hawks and will be out of the league in a year or two. 

 

The Stockton heresy though is next level crazy and others joining in I can only attribute to some new COVID variant causing mass delusion.

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, thecampster said:

I'm not trying to change your mind. I am tired of the Al love nonstop. He's not a Hawk, left the Hawks and will be out of the league in a year or two. 

 

The Stockton heresy though is next level crazy and others joining in I can only attribute to some new COVID variant causing mass delusion.

Stockton is the truth. You and I know that. But Price is a bad boy. You put him in Mike D's system and give him a PnR guys like John Collins for example and you are looking at him and JC as HOFers depending on their longevity in that era before the zone defense and before the versatile 4s entered the league. 

Edited July 23, 2023 by NBASupes

[bird_dirt]

49 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

What abouts 2 of americas most wanted with ?  That’s 2. #piggiesmalls #jrmafiaidontknowwhatthehellsstoppinya

See, they may have been #1s for their respective coasts, but ATCQ had more impact on both sides of the beat. 

You could put them in any era and scheme and they would excel. We got three types of fans in today's hip hop.  

The old school which is what I consider most posters here. Listening on CDs and cassettes, mixed with some new streaming platforms and as long as it props up the performer’s value, it's a good metric even in reality, none of these stats really say shit unless you understand the game, word to Eric B. and Rakim.

The new school, extremely analytical. Tries to be very unbiased. Will praise players like A$AP and make them a bigger deal than they should and will not praise guys with real impact unless it's obvious like Kendrick.  

Then you got the middle, the eye testers. Depending on how they understand the game, is how they call it. They don't care about the masses opinion and hold a low opinion of them in general. That's people like me.

[bird_dirt]

10 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Toss in The Geto Boys, 3-6 Mafia, UGK, and my favorite, Public Enemy, into that mix.

Gaawwww. Yeah PE. 
EPMD, NWA, Cypress Hill, even Beastie Boys deserve a mention. 

[shakes]

55 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Gotta agree that @KB21 was A+ with his analysis.  I, like some others, were duped by Bagley's hyper activity, and didn't properly evaluate his actual skills as a player.  And the fact that he hasn't been able to stay healthy, is an absolute killer.

My thing with the 2018 draft, was that I wanted to draft a guy that had the most potential in becoming a superstar.  I didn't see that in JJJ, but thought he'd play in the league a long time. I finally came around on being good if we took Trae or Luka.

My analysis in that thread overall was a C- at best.  Not as bad as others, but still bad overall.

 

 

In 2018 I didn’t rate Luka cause I never saw him play, but for the college guys I had the 3 players with the highest upside as Trae, JJJ and Bamba.   2/3 ain’t bad.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

As for the Horford vs Nique topic, let's do a player swap of eras.  And because they play different positions, the guy that is their backup, would become the starter.

So let's do a player swap.  I'll take Nique off the 1988 Hawks and the 1994 Hawks, and replace him with Horford.  Here's how those teams would look:

 

1988 Hawks

• PG - Doc Rivers
• G - Randy Wittman
• F - Cliff Levingston
• PF - Kevin Willis
• C - Al Horford 
• 6th - John Battle

1994 Hawks

• PG - Mookie Blaylock
• G - Craig Ehlo
• F - Stacey Augmon
• PF - Kevin Willis
• C - Al Horford
• 6th - Duane Ferrell

 

Now let's swap out Horford for Nique and put him on the 2010 Hawks and the 2015 Hawks

2010 Hawks

• PG - Mike Bibby
• G - Joe Johnson
• F - Dominique Wilkins
• PF - Josh Smith
• C - Zaza Pachulia
• 6th - Jamal Crawford

2015 Hawks

• PG - Dennis Schröder
• G - Kyle Korver
• F - Dominique Wilkins
• PF - Paul Millsap
• C - Pero Antic
• 6th - DeMarre Carroll

 

Thoughts on each squad?

 

[JayBirdHawk]

On 7/23/2023 at 11:29 AM, NBASupes said:

 

I get it, the personal insults was wack, my bad. [Shot at posters' intelligence removed]

My bad campster and Jay. [Shot at posters' intelligence removed]

And that's your problem...you want people to accept and see things the way you do and you have difficulty processing and accepting someone else's reasoned point of view that's different from your own.

Your continued insults of people's intelligence is mind-numbingly obtuse particularly claiming 'I'm Right' cause I said so and then having a hissy fit.

Keep your apology!

[note:  quote edited by mod]

[SalvorMallow]

2 hours ago, bird_dirt said:

Pac solo, not group (2 or more). 

ATCQ

Outkast

Wu

The Roots

Digable Planets

De La Soul

Pharcyde

Hieroglyphics 

Brand Nubian 

Jurassic 5

Black Star

RtJ

Run DMC

who else ya got?

ATCQ above all. 

 

1 hour ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Toss in The Geto Boys, 3-6 Mafia, UGK, and my favorite, Public Enemy, into that mix.

Id tack on Gang Starr (I LOOOOVE Guru), Fugees, and Clipse.

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

I get it, the personal insults was wack, my bad. I don't do people who don't get shit the way I do telling me I am wrong when I know for a fact I am RIGHT! 

My bad campster and Jay. I didn't like anyone tell me I am wrong when I know I am right. 

Let me say this and not directly at you but at everyone.

1) When you get on the internet, on a soap box, on a street corner, on tv and proclaim what you believe, you are inviting disagreement and different points of view.  Open and honest debate requires anyone stating anything in a public forum to expect their point of view to be dissected and challenged. If you are not grown up enough to have your point of view challenged, maybe the internet is not for you.

2) When challenging another person's point of view, there is very little value in "I feel" or "I believe". To quote Ben Shapiro, "Facts don't care about your feelings".  Feelings have value in any debate but they don't trump peer review and that does not trump facts.  Value of insight goes in the order of Facts, group opinion, personal opinion.  None of this means you have to change your mind, but it does mean that when the mob says they don't want to hear, it is best to listen to the mob. Mobs beat down feelings.

3) The worst place to start any discussion is with a loaded question. Never make a public statement ready to shout down anyone who disagrees.  Opinion invites challenge. Holding back what you feel is valid only to bludgeon the participants with it after they answer your question is poor form. Present your case, invite discussion, try to woo the undecided but never try to hold back gotchas. That always backfires.

4) The easiest way to lose an argument is to dismiss facts.  If someone presents stats, those are facts.  The player did indeed average 15 rebounds / game in a season. Its an undeniable fact. Now you can question the weight of the fact but not the fact. No fact is stupid, its a fact.  You can try to limit the importance of the fact but you can't discredit the fact.  I play a pickup basketball game with 10 year olds. I score 50 points and grab 30 boards with 10 blocks and declare I'm the greatest player ever. It is fair game for you to say, but you didn't play NBA players. Its fair game to say, you went through puberty but they hadn't. But its not fair game to say those points don't count or those rebounds aren't real. They happened. They happened in the same gym as every other player.  Feel free to tell me Shaq would have got 100 and 50 and state your case but if you try to discount fact (it happened) you lose every time because no one buys denial of basic truth.

5) Not all stats, all eras are the same but all eye tests are the same.  My eye test has just as much value as your eye test. This is why these are losing arguments.  Rebounds in the era of pace are different than rebounds in the era of 24 second pound ISO and shoot.  Its fair to compare eras, its not fair to compare eye tests as having less weight than others.

 

6) Be willing to admit when you are wrong. "My Bad" is way more respected than doubling down. Always has been. Always will be.

7) If you don't have facts, it is best not to chime in until you do.  This thread is a great example of this.  A question was asked, facts were presented. The rebuttals did not include facts....argument lost no matter how anyone feels about it. If you can't rebut facts with facts, you cannot win an argument and you shouldn't want to.

[warcore]

10 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I can't process it. 

1. Dre is a worse handler than Nique due to fact He has poor hands as well 

2. His vision is bad. 

3. His motor is better than what ya'll think it is without question  

I can't process it. Make it make sense.

You just agreed with everything I said on the above 3 points. And you say it doesn't make sense. 

You already processed it and then say you can't process it. You don't make sense, mayne. I give up. 

[NBASupes]

22 hours ago, thecampster said:

Let me say this and not directly at you but at everyone.

1) When you get on the internet, on a soap box, on a street corner, on tv and proclaim what you believe, you are inviting disagreement and different points of view.  Open and honest debate requires anyone stating anything in a public forum to expect their point of view to be dissected and challenged. If you are not grown up enough to have your point of view challenged, maybe the internet is not for you.

2) When challenging another person's point of view, there is very little value in "I feel" or "I believe". To quote Ben Shapiro, "Facts don't care about your feelings".  Feelings have value in any debate but they don't trump peer review and that does not trump facts.  Value of insight goes in the order of Facts, group opinion, personal opinion.  None of this means you have to change your mind, but it does mean that when the mob says they don't want to hear, it is best to listen to the mob. Mobs beat down feelings.

3) The worst place to start any discussion is with a loaded question. Never make a public statement ready to shout down anyone who disagrees.  Opinion invites challenge. Holding back what you feel is valid only to bludgeon the participants with it after they answer your question is poor form. Present your case, invite discussion, try to woo the undecided but never try to hold back gotchas. That always backfires.

4) The easiest way to lose an argument is to dismiss facts.  If someone presents stats, those are facts.  The player did indeed average 15 rebounds / game in a season. Its an undeniable fact. Now you can question the weight of the fact but not the fact. No fact is stupid, its a fact.  You can try to limit the importance of the fact but you can't discredit the fact.  I play a pickup basketball game with 10 year olds. I score 50 points and grab 30 boards with 10 blocks and declare I'm the greatest player ever. It is fair game for you to say, but you didn't play NBA players. Its fair game to say, you went through puberty but they hadn't. But its not fair game to say those points don't count or those rebounds aren't real. They happened. They happened in the same gym as every other player.  Feel free to tell me Shaq would have got 100 and 50 and state your case but if you try to discount fact (it happened) you lose every time because no one buys denial of basic truth.

5) Not all stats, all eras are the same but all eye tests are the same.  My eye test has just as much value as your eye test. This is why these are losing arguments.  Rebounds in the era of pace are different than rebounds in the era of 24 second pound ISO and shoot.  Its fair to compare eras, its not fair to compare eye tests as having less weight than others.

 

6) Be willing to admit when you are wrong. "My Bad" is way more respected than doubling down. Always has been. Always will be.

7) If you don't have facts, it is best not to chime in until you do.  This thread is a great example of this.  A question was asked, facts were presented. The rebuttals did not include facts....argument lost no matter how anyone feels about it. If you can't rebut facts with facts, you cannot win an argument and you shouldn't want to.

1. Telling someone they are flat out wrong isn't debating. It's flat out disagreement. The First Take era has ruined what is and isn't a debate. There is really nothing to debate about here. From the jump, I got attacked. I attacked right back. 

2. [A person] ha[s] to understand the game to understand facts. If [someone] don't, how are [they] going to be able to understand what are and aren't facts. Someone will probably ask you, why can't we create application that always work, are perfect, why do we have outages. Because complex shit isn't easy. It's highly detailed. While in IT, we can get certs to showcase our expertise and tested knowledge. In Basketball, we got some of us who played at a high level. Some of us just see the game differently. What is a fact, to you doesn't mean the same to me. [Redacted] Because we don't see shit the same. I can't go to an art museum and see any difference between Picasso and my homeboy that graduated from SCAD but the pros do and he does. Why, a - I have an untrained eye. B - I don't have the knowledge to speak on this advanced level of artistry. It's not in my per scope. Are you following me?

3. This is way too opinionated and not very clear. 

4. Once again [Shot at posters' intelligence removed]

5. Five screams you don't know what you are talking about. I am a cyber degree but I'll be a fool trying to explain to someone with your expertise and awareness of the industry trends based on data I've gathered from 2019. I don't have the knowledge. Even if Wiki says this and Google says that, I don't know shit to that level so I couldn't be in that convo with you. I can listen to you. I can learn from you. [Shot at posters' intelligence removed]

6. I am always willing to admit when I am wrong. I am a very humble a******

7. I love facts [Shot at posters' intelligence removed]

[NBASupes]

22 hours ago, warcore said:

You just agreed with everything I said on the above 3 points. And you say it doesn't make sense. 

You already processed it and then say you can't process it. You don't make sense, mayne. I give up. 

Bro, your point was completely missed. I am trying to get it. What I am trying to assume is you are a smarter fan than you are coming off as. 

If that's the case, then you are simply not clear which is why I keep asking you to explain yourself because I think you are smart and I want to give you the benefit of doubt. 

[Shot at posters' intelligence removed]

[TheNorthCydeRises]

10 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

In b4 the lock  

 

 

 

[NBASupes]

@JayBirdHawk complaining about me aint gonna get a response from me. I know i am an asshole. I know that already. 

facts - If you say Nique or Trae is your Atlanta Hawk goat. You will get no argument from me. None. I just clearly don't agree. If you try to tell me I am wrong for saying Al is the goat, you will get smoke with me and if your reasoning is trash. I will let you know about it. 

That's the facts. Are we clear?

[NBASupes]

Note,  I never attacked anyone that never attacked me on this topic. 

I didn't attack anyone for saying who they think their goat is but I was attacked others. @TRW post, he didnt attack me or say i was wrong. Just said he thinks Nique is his goat. Did I attack him, no. 

And now some are crying that an asshole became an asshole is like crying a lion ripped your neck off when he's a lion. 

Ya'll like to be small time assholes and when I show who's the big asshole, y'all like to run and cry like Karens.

Edited July 23, 2023 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

@thecampster, what the new school guys do that find superior to the old schoolers like Ben Taylor, Benhillboy, AHF, etc is they understand analytics can means a lot of different things and use a ton to come to an outcome even if you agree or disagree. 

What you old school guys do is what I call fantasize theories.

He went to this amount of finals. 

He lead the NBA in scoring three times. 

He was all NBA twice or three times. 

He won this contest or that contest. 

It's a lot of rubbish that doesn't mean shit or anyone with sense. 

If you want to debate with a superior mind like me. You gotta come correct. 

I believe Dominique Wilkins is the Goat for the Atlanta Hawks. 

Why?

Was a great scorer in his day. Overpowered SF's in his prime. He was way ahead of his time athletically IMO...would probably be less effective (but still good) in todays NBA because he'd be going up against wings who were on his level from an athletic standpoint. 

Great in the post for a forward.

Had an arsenal of moves (up and under, drop step, spin)

Had a great 2nd jump getting his own misses and offensive boards.

He developed a really solid midrange game in the prime of his career

Tremendous in transition. One of the best in the league in his era

Good at straight line drives which might not translate as well in 2023. 

Tremendous offensive rebounder

Extremely consistent offensive force

He was basically the slashing verison of Carmelo Anthony 

That's how you would do it. Saying shit to me all stars is meaningless unless we are doing a comparison between similar players like Melo, Nique, or Dantley. 

When you try to debate Tim Duncan against Michael Jordan, your first sentence can determine if you are just a causal or someone worth talking to. 

[Sothron]

6 hours ago, thecampster said:

 

Unlike some, I don't just back up my hot takes with profanities.

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/mark_price_vs_john_stockton.htm

 

@Sothron you know I love you but Price never made an all NBA defensive team. Stockton made 5. I don't get better defender. Even Mark Price doesn't get that argument. All team or leader categories. Price 5, Stockton 29.  I need a better argument here than eye test.

 

 

https://www.landofbasketball.com/player_comparison/al_horford_vs_dominique_wilkins.htm

all team or leader categories  9-2 Wilkins.  I'm going to need more here as well.  Especially considering the following:

1) Wilkins didn't force his way out of town.

2) Even the Hawks never gave Al a max contract.

3) No team ever gave Al a max contract.

 

 

Lastly, before you go off on how none of us know basketball like you do or see the game right or any of that nonsense, let me threaten you with receipts.  Don't make me pull out the 2018 draft thread where you tried to convince everyone that Mo Bamba or Marvin Bagley was the player to choose.  The player to choose over Jaren Jackson Jr., Trae Young and Luka Doncic.  I keep receipts!

 

 

 

When did I ever compare price to Stockton?? What @NBASupes is talking about is a random thread on realgm general board about Mark Price vs Steve Nash.

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

1. Telling someone they are flat out wrong isn't debating. It's flat out disagreement. The First Take era has ruined what is and isn't a debate. There is really nothing to debate about here. From the jump, I got attacked. I attacked right back. 

2. You would have to understand the game to understand facts. If you don't, how are you going to be able to understand what are and aren't facts. Someone will probably ask you, why can't we create application that always work, are perfect, why do we have outages. Because complex shit isn't easy. It's highly detailed. While in IT, we can get certs to showcase our expertise and tested knowledge. In Basketball, we got some of us who played at a high level. Some of us just see the game differently. What is a fact, to you doesn't mean the same to me. That's something you are struggling with. Because of that, you just can't understand why we completely differ. Because we don't see shit the same. I can't go to an art museum and see any difference between Picasso and my homeboy that graduated from SCAD but the pros do and he does. Why, a - I have an untrained eye. B - I don't have the knowledge to speak on this advanced level of artistry. It's not in my per scope. Are you following me?

3. This is way too opinionated and not very clear. 

4. Once again, if you can't see the game clearly which I don't believe you see the game clearly, how am I suppose to respect what you think is and isn't facts. You don't know what you are talking about to me to respect your opinion on this topic. What you think is facts, I don't think you even understand at all. 

5. Five screams you don't know what you are talking about. I am a cyber degree but I'll be a fool trying to explain to someone with your expertise and awareness of the industry trends based on data I've gathered from 2019. I don't have the knowledge. Even if Wiki says this and Google says that, I don't know shit to that level so I couldn't be in that convo with you. I can listen to you. I can learn from you. You can learn from my perspective but you can't learn from me in reality as you are the master in that domain. 

6. I am always willing to admit when I am wrong. I am a very humble asshole

7. I love facts, I just don't believe you understand enough to speak on what is and isn't facts when it comes to this topic. 

1) You invited the disagreement. Most posters posted facts....stats...league opinion...fan opinion...membership on lists...membership in groups, etc.  Citing Nique is in the hall is a fact. Citing Nique's career ppg is significantly higher than Al's is a fact. Citing Nique's number of all star games is a fact. None of those are attacks....period.  Calling someone stupid or saying they don't understand enough to state a fact....is an attack.  For the love of all that is holy....calling people dumb is an attack.  Correcting opinion with facts is not an attack.

2.  I'll say this once. I understand the game. I've been around it my whole life. Most of these people on this site have played high school ball, been a fan since they were tiny. They know enough to cite stats and know what they mean.

3. I'm sorry you didn't understand it. It made sense to me and a number of others would agree. Let me try an example. My wife says, "did you take out the trash?" She already knows my kid did it when I asked and I didn't do it. She has that knowledge in her pocket. But asking me so I can say "ya" meaning, I made sure it got done, is her way of being able to start a fight about me being lazy and not listening to her. It's a loaded question. If you start a debate with your mind made up and unwilling to hear me say, "I meant to say I made the kid do it", you'll never accept that as acceptable.  Starting something ready to fight is a bad way to enter into anything.  Especially if its controversial.  See this past week. I stated that if he gets 30 minutes a game, JJ will lead the team in blocks.  People jumped all over it. I knew it was controversial. I didn't take it as an attack. I said my peace, let them say theirs and now I'm just waiting for the season to begin to see how it plays out.  This is the mature approach. I never questioned AHF's need for blue pills or told Spud to shave his legs.  I said my peace, didn't hold any gotchas and let others say theirs. I didn't have to win it because it can't be won until they play a few games (like 82).

4. Disagreement with you does not mean people don't see the game clearly.  Way back in the 80's, people saw the triangle offense as a gimmick.  People were laughed at for suggesting it.  Jackson won 6 rings with it (almost 8 ) and all of a sudden it was the best offense ever.  Just because its your opinion, doesn't make it right. I respect you sticking to your guns, but open mind = happy life.

5. To the uninitiated, I hold 15 industry certs in IT and Cyber and a Master's in IS management with a focus in Information Security. This is what he's alluding to. However, I'd like to point out the majority of my work in this field is with statistical measurement and metrics.

6.  Willing to see this in action.

7. "I just don't believe".....see that's an opinion. You can say that....that's fine.  Everyone has a right to an opinion but, not every opinion is right. Having an opinion, does not make it fact. Back up those facts with some metrics, league surveys, coaches opinions, etc. Then you have an actual argument.

Edited July 23, 2023 by thecampster

[thecampster]

17 minutes ago, Sothron said:

When did I ever compare price to Stockton?? What @NBASupes is talking about is a random thread on realgm general board about Mark Price vs Steve Nash.

 

[thecampster]

18 hours ago, Sothron said:

I've watched the NBA since 1979. Comparing Price who in his era with those era's rules was All NBA and comparing Nash in his era with those era's rules? Yeah, Price is simply the better player. They both were excellent passers, shooters and had high basketball IQ. Price was a far better defensive player. He's even smaller than Nash and was still a much better defensive player. 

If Price had stayed healthy and more importantly played in Mike D'antoni's system in Nash's era then we would be talking about Price as the greatest pure point guard in the history of the NBA. 

I'm not asking anyone to agree with me. I am just calling it like I see it. Mark Price was a stone cold killer that literally every player in his era when asked GUSHES over and all says he should be in the HOF. 

and I apologize....didn't see you'd stated Nash....previous had Stockton on the brain.

 

Hey see there....admitting I got it wrong.