Defense and Hustle Tracking: 2023 - 24 season

[JayBirdHawk]

This is interesting. Plug in your preferred lineup and see what you get.

 

https://ryanmiele14.shinyapps.io/Defensive_Lineup_Model/

 

[REHawksFan]

43 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

This is interesting. Plug in your preferred lineup and see what you get.

 

https://ryanmiele14.shinyapps.io/Defensive_Lineup_Model/

 

Interesting.  Here's a few lineups.  The first four are realistic.  Then it just gets weird trying to manufacture better defense for sake of offense.  

 

Edited August 14 by REHawksFan

[AHF]

 

[benhillboy]

If you’re a fan of Trae’s you probably should totally disregard LEBRON metric scores as nonsense.

He was paid  $77,160,720 the past two seasons combined.  His LEBRON Contract Value in that span was $40,060,526.

For reference Clint came out at $34,223,071.

Edited August 14 by benhillboy

[NBASupes]

8 hours ago, benhillboy said:

If you’re a fan of Trae’s you probably should totally disregard LEBRON metric scores as nonsense.

He was paid  $77,160,720 the past two seasons combined.  His LEBRON Contract Value in that span was $40,060,526.

For reference Clint came out at $34,223,071.

Teams have metrics and it has Murray as being worth more per year than Trae and they think Murray is fairly paid. That tells you how overpaid Trae is. That said, Trae is massive to the Hawks attendance. 

[macdaddy]

I want to see the opinion of Murray in another year +.   The spurs knew the deal, the hawks learned it the hard way, Pels are next.  

[benhillboy]

10 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Teams have metrics and it has Murray as being worth more per year than Trae and they think Murray is fairly paid. That tells you how overpaid Trae is. That said, Trae is massive to the Hawks attendance. 

Yeah, I’ve always been more opposed to Trae on a max than literally anyone (as if anyone gives a f&@k ) but I totally understand it.  It’s just as his Hawks career comes to a close it’s gonna be a clusterf&@k of silliness.

Edited August 15 by benhillboy

[NBASupes]

39 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Yeah, I’ve always been more opposed to Trae on a max than literally anyone (as if anyone gives a f&@k ) but I totally understand it.  It’s just as his Hawks career comes to a close it’s gonna be a clusterf&@k of silliness.

Metrics will always be hard on Trae because he's a Nash level defender who's lacks the ability to run an offense and play off the ball. His fans get mad when I compare him to Marbury but that's who he's closest to.

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Metrics will always be hard on Trae because he's a Nash level defender who's lacks the ability to run an offense and play off the ball. His fans get mad when I compare him to Marbury but that's who he's closest to.

Marbury remains a terrible comparison.  Calling him a Nash level defender is much more accurate than the Marbury comparison.

Trae remains both a better scorer and better creator than Marbury and it isn't particularly close in either regard.  But we'll see if Trae plays his last meaningful season at age 29.  Maybe you'll be right and I'll tip my cap to you when Trae is playing in China.  Or maybe the gap between them will continue to widen as Trae enters his prime.

[benhillboy]

20 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Metrics will always be hard on Trae because he's a Nash level defender who's lacks the ability to run an offense and play off the ball. His fans get mad when I compare him to Marbury but that's who he's closest to.

Bottom-tier rebounding for a starting guard and leading the league in turnovers per game won’t do him any favors with the metrics either.  During Nash’s peak he posted offensive ratings and on/off that Trae will never sniff unfortunately.

Like you and I been saying for years he really doesn’t know how to run sound, varied team offense and metrics capture that as well.

Edited August 16 by benhillboy

[benhillboy]

He doesn’t have a modern player comp.  BBRef stopped updating their win share similarity scores for the past two seasons but he went from Stockton to Mikhal Bridges to Rolondo Blackmon from year 2 to 5.  He was trending toward obscure ABA/ NBA-style small guards of the 70’s.

Edited August 16 by benhillboy

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, benhillboy said:

He doesn’t have a modern player comp.  BBRef stopped updating their win share similarity scores for the past two seasons but he went from Stockton to Mikhal Bridges to Rolondo Blackmon from year 2 to 5.  He was trending toward obscure ABA/ NBA-style small guards of the 70’s.

Someone compared him to Nate Tiny Archibald. That might have legs but Tiny was damn near a MVP candidate yearly. Trae hasn't come close. 

Edited August 16 by NBASupes

[NBASupes]

I think Tiny is probably a good comp if Trae is willing to take a 90% paycut and a lesser role like Tiny did when he joined Boston.

Edited August 16 by NBASupes

[AHF]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

I think Tiny is probably a good comp if Trae is willing to take a 90% paycut and a lesser role like Tiny did when he joined Boston.

This may be your craziest take ever and I'm including the Cam Reddish to Randy Moss comparison.  You think Trae needs to accept a contract that pays him $4.3M or 3% of the team's salary cap?

Never stop being doing your thing, Supes!

[JayBirdHawk]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

This may be your craziest take ever and I'm including the Cam Reddish to Randy Moss comparison.  You think Trae needs to accept a contract that pays him $4.3M or 3% of the team's salary cap?

Never stop being doing your thing, Supes!

You did well to even acknowledge that nonsense. 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

 

 

[NBASupes]

On 8/16/2024 at 12:04 PM, AHF said:

This may be your craziest take ever and I'm including the Cam Reddish to Randy Moss comparison.  You think Trae needs to accept a contract that pays him $4.3M or 3% of the team's salary cap?

Never stop being doing your thing, Supes!

Tiny rebuild his legacy, made 3 AS, was a MVP candidate and won a title. It worked for him even though his overall stats took a massive tumble. 

It's not economically smart and I would never advice anyone to do it but if you are historically comparing someone to Trae, it's Tiny and that's what he did 

The Moss to Cam was a massive failure for sure. It was a massive risk and bet that I lost on multiple levels. I literally lost over 10k even betting on his career success which I won betting on others. Cam was a big miss because 

A. I was going against others who hedge hard the other way and was right

B. I felt Atlanta still had the magic of the Bud era. Sadly LP wasn't that nor was Cam. 

C. Bet on the person, not the traits. I live by it now but at the time, I was convinced great coaching can fix the person and the traits speak for themselves. 

Edited August 20 by NBASupes

[AHF]

2 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Tiny rebuild his legacy, made 3 AS, was a MVP candidate and won a title. It worked for him even though his overall stats took a massive tumble. 

It's not economically smart and I would never advice anyone to do it but if you are historically comparing someone to Trae, it's Tiny and that's what he did 

 

I get the comparison to Tiny.  I seriously doubt Tiny was paid 3% of his team's budget.  The idea that Trae should do that is insane and that was the core of my response.  $4.3M is not even a remotely reasonable salary expectation for Trae.

[NBASupes]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

I get the comparison to Tiny.  I seriously doubt Tiny was paid 3% of his team's budget.  The idea that Trae should do that is insane and that was the core of my response.  $4.3M is not even a remotely reasonable salary expectation for Trae.

Check this article out

https://from-way-downtown.com/2021/08/21/has-success-spoiled-tiny-archibald-1975/#:~:text=An eye on the other,of the National Basketball Association.

Also check this out

September 2, 1948: Nate Archibald was born. Tiny is the only player to lead the league in points & assists in the same season ('73). He was a 6x All-Star, 5x All-NBA (1st-team in '73, '75, '76), and had a career resurgence with Boston (champ and ASG MVP in '81).

https://www.reddit.com/r/VintageNBA/s/hJRldgbL28

Check this out as well 

https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/s/4hLz2QSfC6

I also just found he had a contract in 1984 cut that he was making 300k. When he was traded to Boston, his salary was very low. He ended up getting a multiple year deal making 300k a year which he never finished as he was cut in 1984. This was when the top 40 top paid players was making a million or more per year. 

 

[AHF]

54 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Check this article out

https://from-way-downtown.com/2021/08/21/has-success-spoiled-tiny-archibald-1975/#:~:text=An eye on the other,of the National Basketball Association.

Also check this out

September 2, 1948: Nate Archibald was born. Tiny is the only player to lead the league in points & assists in the same season ('73). He was a 6x All-Star, 5x All-NBA (1st-team in '73, '75, '76), and had a career resurgence with Boston (champ and ASG MVP in '81).

https://www.reddit.com/r/VintageNBA/s/hJRldgbL28

Check this out as well 

https://www.reddit.com/r/nbadiscussion/s/4hLz2QSfC6

I also just found he had a contract in 1984 cut that he was making 300k. When he was traded to Boston, his salary was very low. He ended up getting a multiple year deal making 300k a year which he never finished as he was cut in 1984. This was when the top 40 top paid players was making a million or more per year. 

 

So you are really sticking with the "Trae should be making $4.3M a year" thing, huh.  That is amazing Supes. 

You proposing that Trae should make the #268th most money in the NBA.

Kudos for having the cojones to back a view that I can only describe as among the most extreme takes I've ever seen from a post on this site.