Zach Edey Conundrum - Could Edey be the next great Atlanta Hawk or is he the next Cam Reddish

[KB21]

19 minutes ago, Mikey said:

You got it bro. Got an argument for everything Edey based. Im sure the Hawks want to draft a player that can only play drop when they don't want to run that at all. Guess scheme fits don't matter anymore. 

LOL

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, KB21 said:

He's not a big wing.  He has never played wing in his basketball career.  He can guard wings, which is important, but he's not a wing.  He's as much of a wing as Chet Holmgren and Wemby are wings.  

He's defending multiple positions like a big wing does and he switches and can defend in space which is required from big wings. You and I can claim he's not one of offense but he's not any good at anything on offense. At least he shows some promise as a perimeter player even if he's very raw. 

Chet and Wemby are in different leagues as perimeter players and defensively, both offer a lot more resistance as drop defenders and doing big man actions than Sarr does. Sarr is better than both defending on the perimeter and in switches as a prospect but those other two absolutely shit on him in big man actions and they aren't that great at it either due to obvious physical limitations like bulk. 

Edited May 20 by NBASupes

[JeffS17]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

I'll call that fair. I'd go more pessimistic but that's fair. That's personal evaluation and it makes my point. If he'd go as low as 10 in another year, is it wise to spend the top pick on him, commit all that money to him this year? You could trade out of this pick down to the teens, still get Edey and pick up 2 more 1st round picks....that sounds a lot smarter to me.

The salary difference between the first pick and the 10th pick is like ~$5M, no need to catastrophize that.  It's a $10M player.

30 minutes ago, thecampster said:

 

1. You trade Capela and #1.  You walk out of the draft with Matisse Thybulle, Dalton Knecht and Zach Edey and clear $12 million in total cap room. Or you pass through Thybulle to Detroit and take back Ausar Thompson instead.  That's 3 players (regardless of the version you take) that can all play here this year.  Or you take Sarr and hope he can play meaningful minutes next year.

 

Happy to get off Clint in favor of Thybulle, but he's so useless on offense, you're creating a new problem by solving another one.

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

I don't agree with the idea that no one is worthy.  The reality is that once a player is picked that player is off the board and unavailable.  To me, there is no value of a #1 pick or #3 pick or #5 pick, etc. in the abstract.  The value is entirely dependent on who is on the board.  The salary difference is there but not that meaningful to me.  Most rookies are strong values as contracts.  So if we think a particular player is going to be great in the future or great on this roster, then that player is the player that is worthy at 1.  If that player will still be on the board at 7, then trade down and take him there (you get as much as possible but it doesn't matter because you get the player you want at a lower price so it doesn't really matter what you get).  If he won't be on the board (or to put it in more meaningful language if he probably won't be on the board), then trading down comes at a cost and it is entirely dependent on what you get back as to whether that is worth it. 

If Detroit offers their 2025 unprotected first, for example, then I'm listening.  If New York offers me a good player and their 2025 first, I'm not listening.

Seconded, particularly the bolded part.

Generally, I don't see why we would trade down.  We don't need more "decent" rotation guys.  We need high end talent aka high ceiling players.  You guys are subtly talking about this draft like next season is the only thing that matters... like what are we trying to solve for?  Getting a very high ceiling player for long term?  Or fighting for 5th seed first round exit instead of a 6th seed first round exit next year?  This team is more than a rotation player away from doing anything meaningful, so draft based on guys having a high floor is the opposite approach I want the FO to take.

[benhillboy]

On 5/19/2024 at 3:07 PM, NBASupes said:

I don't hate Zubac at all. I hate any comp to Edey and Zubac is one. Even Edey mentioned guys like Jonas and Zubac in his personal. My personal opinion is simple. Zubac is a decent movement big man. Excellent screener who learned from Harrell who's one of the best in the last 10 years and Gortat who was one of the best in the last 15 years. So I always liked Zubac and he always appears in the impact charts at a good level. There is a massive gap between Zubac and Edey in terms of quality of screens, consistency in driving screens, and patience which Zubac didn't always show till this year, and he just wasn't a great roll man. Harrell was an elite roller in his prime. Gortat with Wall was special. 

Edey is next level. His size, strength, he is able to start and stop exceptionally well - something I wish Bruno could do so he wouldn't get called for so many moving screens. He has timing. Edey has it all as a screener and he loves contact. That to me is key. That's what Karl Malone had. 

He's also relentless as a roller. As No Ceilings stated, he's more of an arm's reach roller which works for him and that length of his. I just see Karl Malone honestly. The mindset that is. Just that relentless will to score. 

For me, I know he's not the most talented. The most skilled or close. But Westbrook proved to me that being relentless, healthy, with tremendous stamina and athletic ability for your size, you can product like hell in the NBA and that's hard to deal with. Also, he's an elite helper. He makes life a lot easier for his teammates. It's all in the metrics as well. 

Bro got two top 10 lineups with him in it. https://evanmiya.com/?homepage

That's what you see him Jokic. Pelton has his WARP as the same as Jokic. 

I just think he's a terrific fit for Trae. He's elite at the things Trae's elite at. To me, how we got Stockton/Malone. 

I am all in on Edey. 

As far as Zubac. I think he's a top 20 center but he just the the quality of movement big I like, also, Edey also has the low post movement as well. So I just believe Edey is levels better. I see Edey as an inverse Klay Thompson. Klay is one of the greatest movement wings ever. Edey has the same movement as bigs like Gortat and Harrell while having the movement in the low post like Shaq. To me, that's special. No one else is like this. Yeah, I don't see how Atlanta can pass on Edey and it doesn't turn out disastrous for Atlanta. 

Where the hell is Harrell at now?  Kinda crazy he’s out the league at only 30.  He wasn’t the smartest possession to possession defender but damn he was rugged and has great career metrics.

I always admired Zubac’s temperament.  He gets hacked to hell and doesn’t complain one bit.  I had to do a triple take at Edey’s FT rate, shit is insane.  He’s gonna have to reach a consistency at the stripe sooner than later though. The spike in attempts yet drop in efficiency from junior to senior is a mini red flag.

[hylndr11]

29 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Consider this deal.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10120942-trade-packages-for-the-no-1-pick-in-2024-nba-draft

 

The Trade

Atlanta Hawks Receive: Matisse Thybulle, No. 7, No. 14

Detroit Pistons Receive: Clint Capela

Portland Trail Blazers Receive: No. 1 pick, 2027 second-round pick (less favorable from Brooklyn and Dallas, via Detroit)

1. 
   
    
2. You trade Capela and #1.  You walk out of the draft with Matisse Thybulle, Dalton Knecht and Zach Edey and clear $12 million in total cap room. Or you pass through Thybulle to Detroit and take back Ausar Thompson instead.  That's 3 players (regardless of the version you take) that can all play here this year.  Or you take Sarr and hope he can play meaningful minutes next year.

 

I'm probably doing all those deals in that article, but those seem a bit skewed to the hawks.  I do think Sarr is going to be a star player, but he is a bit further out than we would like I believe (fans) plus we have a somewhat similar guy already being developed, tons of the same stuff you can say about Mo they say about Sarr.  Mo.is more raw offensively but already bring legit perimeter defense etc.  

But if I'm getting Bridges, I'll prolly punt the pick, not that nets are doing that.  I do want to see how good Trae really can be with the right guys around him but also I am not going to be that upset anymore if we aren't able to get that done and then I'm ready to move on to just bigger players in general with high upside and moving forward with the Hawks.  I'm not going to get super upset either way I finally got that out of my system in 2017 with.the other bird team.

[NBASupes]

Just now, benhillboy said:

Where the hell is Harrell at now?  Kinda crazy he’s out the league at only 30.  He wasn’t the smartest possession to possession defender but damn he was rugged and has great career metrics.

I always admired Zubac’s temperament.  He gets hacked to hell and doesn’t complain one bit.  I had to do a triple take at Edey’s FT rate, shit is insane.  He’s gonna have to reach a consistency at the stripe sooner than later though. The spike in attempts yet drop in efficiency from junior to senior is a mini red flag.

He lost too much explosiveness and that carried him like Smooves athleticism. Bro fell off so fast. 

[hylndr11]

30 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Edey is actually solid at big man things on defense. Solid post up defender. Good paint protector. Being 7'5 299 pounds, strong as an ox with a 7'10.75 wingspan helps. 

He's physically mature. Edey also has high mental acuity too. That said, Edey as a 4 would be shit. Sarr wouldn't be. There are advantages to playing 4 years of college basketball. 

The reason why Edey would help on D more in year 1 is because his offensive value makes his defense a lot better due to his ability to get players in foul trouble and benches are just a lot weaker than starting units in the NBA. The Minnesota, Kevin Love factor. 

Exploits are everything in the NBA. If Sarr gets to that point, he will do the same. 

We can simplify this some, What supes is trying to say about Edey is basically hawks would not have trouble scoring in the half court like before, we don't talk about how hard this has been for us last few years.  

To me the differences are obvious defensively, but really depends on what all can we get if we move this pick, because Edey won't be it at 1

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

We don't need more "decent" rotation guys.  We need high end talent aka high ceiling players.  

(Edit:  To clarify, this does not mean that Fields gets a free pass if he fills out the roster with low $ garbage players.  He still needs low $ useful players to fill it out.)

[NBASupes]

15 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

I always admired Zubac’s temperament.  He gets hacked to hell and doesn’t complain one bit.  I had to do a triple take at Edey’s FT rate, shit is insane.  He’s gonna have to reach a consistency at the stripe sooner than later though. The spike in attempts yet drop in efficiency from junior to senior is a mini red flag.

I honestly think think he was playing a lot harder this year. Could it be adjusting to more intense play, lower FT% but he does need to be more consistent. 71% isn't bad for that volume but he should be able to get to 78-80 with more work at that rate. His screens assists and dives is what got him to the line alot more. He was tougher to deal there than the post

Zub really matured and his impact is good for someone without a physical advantage 

Edited May 20 by NBASupes

[benhillboy]

24 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

The salary difference between the first pick and the 10th pick is like ~$5M, no need to catastrophize that.  It's a $10M player.

Happy to get off Clint in favor of Thybulle, but he's so useless on offense, you're creating a new problem by solving another one.

Seconded, particularly the bolded part.

Generally, I don't see why we would trade down.  We don't need more "decent" rotation guys.  We need high end talent aka high ceiling players.  You guys are subtly talking about this draft like next season is the only thing that matters... like what are we trying to solve for?  Getting a very high ceiling player for long term?  Or fighting for 5th seed first round exit instead of a 6th seed first round exit next year?  This team is more than a rotation player away from doing anything meaningful, so draft based on guys having a high floor is the opposite approach I want the FO to take.

I’ve always been intrigued by Thybulle.  He has a horrible offensive reputation but he shoots a very respectable career .536 eFG due to excellent 2 point efficiency.  His corner three point shooting frequency/ efficiency is promising too (42% of his threes at .358.).  I’d love to take a flyer on him if I was confident in the team’s makeup and coaching staff’s developmental arm.  Which I’m not.  If he were on the Mavs you couldn’t tell the difference between he and Jones Jr.

Edited May 20 by benhillboy

[Spud2nique]

50 minutes ago, thecampster said:

In the draft I'm betting on Dalton Knecht to be that dude.

Of course you are.  and what do you like in the poor man’s Mike Miller for us? The ability to shag ’s in practice and joke around with the team in the locker room by giving folks wedgies? The ultimate teammate Dalton Henry William (not his middle names but assuming he has that many) Knect. Gimme a break dawg. 

[JeffS17]

Just now, benhillboy said:

I’ve always been intrigued by Thybulle.  He has a horrible offensive reputation but he shoots a very respectable career .536 eFG due to excellent 2 point efficiency.  His corner three point shooting frequency/ efficiency is promising too (42% of his threes at .358.).  I’d love to take a flyer on him if I was confident in the team’s makeup and coaching staff’s developmental arm.  Which I’m not.

He's a very good cutter and has good off ball instincts-- makes sense why his 2pt shot efficiency is good, would love to see his shot chart, probably mostly at the rim.  He'd be a good guy to have on the bench, especially if Quin/Kyle think they can get him shooting better.  I just don't want him at the expense of the #1 pick.

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, thecampster said:

Below are the notable picks from the 2018 draft.  Knowing those players based on both what you know now and what you thought then, who on that list are you picking Sarr ahead of? Where are you slotting him.

Between 10-15. But it’s comparing apples to oranges you can’t really gage anything with this comparison. I mean, 2013 Anthony Bennett went 1st the Cavs were stupid. They should have picked someone different or traded out. I think a lot of people thought he wasn’t gonna make it. 
 

Sarr ain’t that guy. This draft has been vastly underrated because the media and cyber world said it sucked. 

[JeffS17]

When I think about playoff matchups, and playing the same team in a 7 game series, where coaches are actually game planning and scheming, and exploiting every weakness on your roster,  Edey just ain't it.  I don't want that guy on the floor in the playoffs, not as my starting center.  He might turn out to be an elite regular season guy, great win shares and all the stats -- but that's where I put his ceiling, I just don't see that guy ever being a part of a championship core.  Maybe a high-end, situational, bench guy. Either way, we need high ceiling core pieces right now, because we are struggling to trade for another one, and the most likely place to find those pieces are in the draft.

[NBASupes]

3 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

When I think about playoff matchups, and playing the same team in a 7 game series, where coaches are actually game planning and scheming, and exploiting every weakness on your roster,  Edey just ain't it.  I don't want that guy on the floor in the playoffs, not as my starting center.  He might turn out to be an elite regular season guy, great win shares and all the stats -- but that's where I put his ceiling, I just don't see that guy ever being a part of a championship core.  Maybe a high-end, situational, bench guy. Either way, we need high ceiling core pieces right now, because we are struggling to trade for another one, and the most likely place to find those pieces are in the draft.

I really think ya'll underestimate mental acuity and how valuable it is in today's NBA. Even the NBA of the past. Knowing what to do at a high level is a part of possession by possession basketball. You can't play anyone off the court playing the mental game at a high level.

 

 

[NBASupes]

23 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Between 10-15. But it’s comparing apples to oranges you can’t really gage anything with this comparison. I mean, 2013 Anthony Bennett went 1st the Cavs were stupid. They should have picked someone different or traded out. I think a lot of people thought he wasn’t gonna make it. 
 

Sarr ain’t that guy. This draft has been vastly underrated because the media and cyber world said it sucked. 

It doesn't suck but when your upside guy is years away from being useful for winning basketball. Your prospect #2 is basically Otto Porter Jr. And all of the OADs are miles away. It just feels like a draft that starts at 8th or 9th overall and is full of guys in the 10-25 range. Even Edey is more of a 10-25 range from my scout. The issue is, everyone here is as well. That's why Edey is prospect #1 in this class. 

[JeffS17]

4 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I really think ya'll underestimate mental acuity and how valuable it is in today's NBA. Even the NBA of the past. Knowing what to do at a high level is a part of possession by possession basketball. You can't play anyone off the court playing the mental game at a high level.

 

 

Not underestimating, just speaking to his physical limitations.  One of the reasons I wanted Gobert so bad 2 seasons ago is because of his BBIQ on defense and his impact (he has best on/off of any player in the playoffs right now), so I understand the importance.  I believe you and I were the only ones aligned on that.

[NBASupes]

11 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Not underestimating, just speaking to his physical limitations.  One of the reasons I wanted Gobert so bad 2 seasons ago is because of his BBIQ on defense and his impact (he has best on/off of any player in the playoffs right now), so I understand the importance.  I believe you and I were the only ones aligned on that.

Gobert doesn't use mental acuity the way Edey would. Gobert uses his fluidity which is why he struggled some against Jokic who used size..

Edey would use size, strength, and angles like Marc Gasol and Jokic to some degree. He would have to perfect his style but I really think you are underestimating that he has things he can use in the NBA to improve on defense. 

People underestimate how much size matters on defense and Edey can move. He may lack fluidity that will hurt on closeouts but he can really move and that will help a ton on D.

We really have to understand. He's 7'5 299, with a 7'10.75 wingspan. This is a mammoth man and he's a freak athlete for his size

Edited May 20 by NBASupes

[KB21]

The average NBA team posts up around 4 times per game.  It’s an inefficient shot.  Analytics has proven that over time.    It’s far more important for a big to be able to play in space than play or defend in post up possessions.  Yet, there are some who want to draft a player or avoid drafting a player based on what they do in the post as opposed to what they do in space?  

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

The average NBA team posts up around 4 times per game.  It’s an inefficient shot.  Analytics has proven that over time.    It’s far more important for a big to be able to play in space than play or defend in post up possessions.  Yet, there are some who want to draft a player or avoid drafting a player based on what they do in the post as opposed to what they do in space?  

Possibly correct: The average NBA team posts up around 4 times per game.

Bullshit:  It’s an inefficient shot.

Bullshit: It’s far more important for a big to be able to play in space than play or defend in post up possessions.  

Quote

Yet, there are some who want to draft a player or avoid drafting a player based on what they do in the post as opposed to what they do in space?

If you refuse to listen to what has been said over 100 times in this thread alone just to make your own false assumptions when you said you would stop speaking on Edey which you should do. It would be nice.