Zach Edey Conundrum - Could Edey be the next great Atlanta Hawk or is he the next Cam Reddish

[Threezus]

18 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Can you define for me, just "you", what that skill set is?

Can you also then admit that Edey's back to the basket game, rebounding game, size is also generational?

Absolutely i can for Edey im a supporter of his my friend i'll gladly take him over Clingan.   As for Sarr im talking more about his athleticism, handles, and moves he can do with the ball in his hand.  Playing like a SG or SF at 7 ft plus like a Durant or greak freak.  You just don't see 7 ft+ guys with that type of potential upside as usually when you get that big.  It also comes with limitations on what your body will allow you to do  like a Rudy Gobert.  Very good player but i can promise you no one is taking him over other talll skilled athletic guys like Durant or Freak.   Wembenyana and Sarr if they get their shots better and learn to hit from 3 at a 35% range comfortably has the handles and skill set to be legit focal points of a offense.  Kevin Durant is probably the best version of this at 6'10+ and to me thats generational.  

As for Edey yeah i have no issue what so ever saying his rebounding and back to the basket game are top of the line and i like him quite a bit.  He is the more traditional type of center and a good one at that and while he does need to work on his defense a good bit compared to saar and clingan i think his down low game is better than both of them right now.   

To me you can pair Sarr and Edey quite easily because both of their games are legit different in their play style.  They shouldn't overlap each other much and thats why i would be ok with taking Sarr at 1 then grabbing edey at like 8 to 10 or so if we can get a pick in there and he is available. 

[gurpilo]

1 hour ago, thecampster dijo:

Can you define for me, just "you", what that skill set is?

Can you also then admit that Edey's back to the basket game, rebounding game, size is also generational?

I can see Sarr adding 30-40 lbs, been able to guard any big and been able to switch and defend any forward. I can see Sarr becoming a very good offensive player. I can see Sarr becoming Evan Mobley or JJJ. His agility, athleticism, fluidity, defense is very rare for a guy his size.

I cannot see Edey or Clingan surviving in a playoff game more than 15mpg, I think they will be even limited in regular season.

[thecampster]

5 minutes ago, gurpilo said:

I can see Sarr adding 30-40 lbs, been able to guard any big and been able to switch and defend any forward. I can see Sarr becoming a very good offensive player. I can see Sarr becoming Evan Mobley or JJJ. His agility, athleticism, fluidity, defense is very rare for a guy his size.

I cannot see Edey or Clingan surviving in a playoff game more than 15mpg, I think they will be even limited in regular season.

The argument being made on Sarr right now is people saying if he adds those 30 lbs, he'll still be able to guard guards on the perimeter (the knock on the other 2 bigs).

I can accept your opinion on this. No problem with your opinion because you stated it as what you could not see.  That's fair. I'm cool with that.  What I'm not okay with is others saying "he won't, never will" end of discussion. I'll try to keep this to Clingan. His free throw shooting to me is a clear indication that he's very Clint like and will never be useful outside of 12 feet. He brings a few things I like but never ever would I bring him in at #1. I'm aware that's my opinion.  A pretty sound opinion based in stats/facts but still an opinion.

My opinion has been this the whole time.  True #1. There is no true #1 in this draft.  If you trade out of #1, you aren't going to miss out on Wemby, Tatum, Giannis.  Your best case scenario going to miss out on a 16/8 player with great weak side blocking skills.  I'll grant that. This kid tracks weakside and help defense like a falcon, but his upside offense in 3 years (imho) is 16 ppg.  In the NBA, without putting on 30 lbs and potentially harming his best attributes, he's at best an 8 rpg guy.  Those are best case scenarios...again, imho.  So you can get that at pick 10, pick 14...heck, we got it at pick 20 in JJ.  Not 100% sure I want to take that risk. Others do and that's fine, but I don't.  If I want to commit to a #1 pick, I want him to be Tim Duncan, Giannis, Luka, Trae, Tatum, Jokic, etc guaranteed. I don't see that here and again, I realize that's my opinion, one I've grounded in stats, analysis and facts but still an opinion.

I don't frame my posts (or try not to) with you're wrong, no way he'll be, won't be, isn't, etc. I try to frame them in either facts/stats or clearly as "my opinion".

[AHF]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

Can you also then admit that Edey's back to the basket game, rebounding game, size is also generational?

I know this wasn’t directed at me but I’ll share a couple of my thoughts on Edey.  On size, I don’t consider anyone’s size to be generational - it doesn’t make sense to me as a term.  What I consider generational physical characteristics are athleticism at a certain size.  Spud could 360 dunk at his height.  That is generational.  Someone else being the same size isn’t generational without that same athleticism.  Priest Lauderdale was enormous that has nothing to do with being generational.  Shaq’s athleticism at his size was generational.  For Edey, I don’t see that mix.  Most players his size are not very effective and so his size is not a big asset unless matched with athleticism that will offset it.  Him testing better than Clingan is a good start there but neither of those two is generational as far as physical characteristics for me.

In terms of back to the basket and rebounding, Edey was generational in college.  Whether he can be generational at those in the NBA is a TBD.  Salim Stoudemire looked like he could be a standout shooter and wasn’t even passable for rotation minutes.

I think Edey has the potential to generational with his back to the basket game in the NBA, although I wouldn’t say the odds are great just because that is such a high bar. I like the odds of that happening better than him being a generational rebounder.  But whether he is a generational player for those skills in the NBA will be determined by his actual NBA performance - including being a good enough all around player that he gets enough minutes to demonstrate those skills in very meaningful ways.  I put this as a firm TBD.

[thecampster]

I think JJ is my easiest comparison here for the experts being wrong.

Jalen played half of his Duke season injured and withdrew from the post season to protect his body for the draft. He only averaged 21 mpg. But in the few games where he got full minutes and was healthy he was scary good. He had a 19/19/5/4 game to start the year. Later had a 24/16/7/4 game in 33 minutes. Jalen's talent was never in question, only his health/commitment. 

The experts talked him out of a top 5 pick all the way down to falling into the Hawks' laps at 20.  On draft night, I had already prepared for a world without him as our pick. Mentally to me, he was off the board. you can go back and see where I chatted, "wth, he was still on the board".  I was advocating for us to move up to get him or Sengun because I was sure they'd be gone by 10-12. But the expert talent evaluators said Jalen would be a bust. Although the concerns were valid, I was sure he'd be off the board.

Draft night came and "experts" advised their teams and stalwart high upside guys like:

Davion Mitchell

Zaire Williams

James Bouknight??? this high, the lottery?

Josh Primo??? this high, the lottery?

Chris Duarte

Moses Moody

Corey Kispert

Trey Murphey III

Tre Mann

and Kai Jones

All came off the board before Jalen Johnson...because of draft experts.

Those jokers go for "potential" all the time. 

There is a reason the Pistons are the Pistons.  Even when they hit (Cade Cunningham), they miss (90 games missed the last 2 seasons, 108 in 3 seasons).

 

Those same experts said Trae Young was a mid to late 1st rounder and his game would never translate to the NBA (where have we heard that recently). The mocks showed him going 6-8 with most saying it was a mistake to take him that early.  Early on, the discussion was all whether or not to take Ayton or Bagley 1st.  In that draft, many saw Bagley as the number 1 pick or Ayton.

[gurpilo]

hace 22 minutos, thecampster dijo:

The argument being made on Sarr right now is people saying if he adds those 30 lbs, he'll still be able to guard guards on the perimeter (the knock on the other 2 bigs).

I can accept your opinion on this. No problem with your opinion because you stated it as what you could not see.  That's fair. I'm cool with that.  What I'm not okay with is others saying "he won't, never will" end of discussion. I'll try to keep this to Clingan. His free throw shooting to me is a clear indication that he's very Clint like and will never be useful outside of 12 feet. He brings a few things I like but never ever would I bring him in at #1. I'm aware that's my opinion.  A pretty sound opinion based in stats/facts but still an opinion.

My opinion has been this the whole time.  True #1. There is no true #1 in this draft.  If you trade out of #1, you aren't going to miss out on Wemby, Tatum, Giannis.  Your best case scenario going to miss out on a 16/8 player with great weak side blocking skills.  I'll grant that. This kid tracks weakside and help defense like a falcon, but his upside offense in 3 years (imho) is 16 ppg.  In the NBA, without putting on 30 lbs and potentially harming his best attributes, he's at best an 8 rpg guy.  Those are best case scenarios...again, imho.  So you can get that at pick 10, pick 14...heck, we got it at pick 20 in JJ.  Not 100% sure I want to take that risk. Others do and that's fine, but I don't.  If I want to commit to a #1 pick, I want him to be Tim Duncan, Giannis, Luka, Trae, Tatum, Jokic, etc guaranteed. I don't see that here and again, I realize that's my opinion, one I've grounded in stats, analysis and facts but still an opinion.

I don't frame my posts (or try not to) with you're wrong, no way he'll be, won't be, isn't, etc. I try to frame them in either facts/stats or clearly as "my opinion".

Well, I think someone with Sarr's athleticism playing with a PG as Trae or DJM is instantly 10 ppg without doing much. I think Sarr is going to be an adequate shooter, probably not good and has the skills and handles to create for himself. That is John Collins with more size and much better defender. I see a lot of Pau Gasol on him. Anyway is true he is a project and could be a bust, but at best I see someone like Pau Gasol.

[AHF]

The JJ comparison doesn’t work for me because he was seen leaving HS as perhaps the highest upside guy in his entire class and was still seen as a high upside guy when he entered the draft.  Him quitting school and having more injury problems had way more to do with him falling than people picking higher upside players over him.  Since they had played full seasons in college and didn’t have his injury profile, they were seen as more proven and safer picks.  It was the concern over his downside that drove him down draft boards not a failure to acknowledge his upside.

[JayBirdHawk]

41 minutes ago, thecampster said:

think JJ is my easiest comparison here for the experts being wrong.

If I remember correctly it wasn't his skill and potential that made him drop - more about injuries and concerns about leaving IMG and Duke. 

[thecampster]

19 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

If I remember correctly it wasn't his skill and potential that made him drop - more about injuries and concerns about leaving IMG and Duke. 

That's my point. Experts have a bad habit of talking themselves out of proven picks for a myriad of reasons. There were no doubts about his ability but they managed to diminish the ability in light of his questions marks. But then talk themselves into picks with proven question marks in the name of potential.

[JayBirdHawk]

25 minutes ago, thecampster said:

That's my point. Experts have a bad habit of talking themselves out of proven picks for a myriad of reasons. There were no doubts about his ability but they managed to diminish the ability in light of his questions marks. But then talk themselves into picks with proven question marks in the name of potential.

But it happens all the time for a myriad of reasons, it's never one thing and less about perceived potential of another player. See Cam Whitmore just last year. 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, thecampster said:

That's my point. Experts have a bad habit of talking themselves out of proven picks for a myriad of reasons. There were no doubts about his ability but they managed to diminish the ability in light of his questions marks. But then talk themselves into picks with proven question marks in the name of potential.

JJ was a high risk (ie unproven), high reward prospect with massive unrealized potential.  He did have nice per minute production but Duke was worse with him in the lineup and he got benched before quitting the team.  He also carried massive injury red flags.  He was definitely NOT perceived as a proven commodity and seen much more as a potential pick than a proven one.

[KB21]

A better comparison for Edey is Sheldon Williams.  College player of the year.  Elite rebounder.   Overlooked his physical limitations and thought he’d recreate his production in the NBA.  

[thecampster]

10 hours ago, KB21 said:

A better comparison for Edey is Sheldon Williams.  College player of the year.  Elite rebounder.   Overlooked his physical limitations and thought he’d recreate his production in the NBA.  

Dude that's a reach.

[NBASupes]

14 hours ago, gurpilo said:

Well, I think someone with Sarr's athleticism playing with a PG as Trae or DJM is instantly 10 ppg without doing much. I think Sarr is going to be an adequate shooter, probably not good and has the skills and handles to create for himself. That is John Collins with more size and much better defender. I see a lot of Pau Gasol on him. Anyway is true he is a project and could be a bust, but at best I see someone like Pau Gasol.

[] [Sarr's] tape is shit. His metrics is shit. Trae couldn't turn Damian Jones into Amare, how the f*** is he gonna take someone with far less big man abilities to that level when he's also really raw as a big wing?

[NBASupes]

John Collins was an elite scorer in college. [] John Collins, Porzee, Mobley, KG? Get the total f*** outta here, then these guys have the nerves to say Risacher is average. [] This ain't just wrong, this is extremely wrong. The way KB thinks I see Edey is exactly the way I think [too many people] see Sarr and even Risacher. [] I've watched his tape. John Collins???? These are players who have proven tape. JC has a shit ton of issues and overcame a lot of it but to compare him to Sarr. Ugh! 

It's just that time of the year. Once people love a prospect, they will say anything, same if they hate a prospect. As I've said before, no one is wrong in the draft, just delusional or crazy smart. Since they aren't in the NBA yet, [nobody's take can] be proven or dispelled. It is what it is. 

Just venting 

[Final_quest]

26 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

[] His tape is shit. His metrics is shit. Trae couldn't turn Damian Jones into Amare, how the f*** is he gonna take someone with far less big man abilities to that level when he's also really raw as a big wing?

If I’m Trae Young who has been tasked with turning an incomplete roster into a deep playoff team every year, and you tell me the #1 pick is this guy?  He can’t rebound, shoot, defend in the paint, screen, etc.  I get the potential, but it’s not true #1 overall potential.  We got to at least consider other options for this pick.  

Haven’t heard anyone convince me that Sarr is the guy you bet the house on.  

[gurpilo]

27 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

[] [Sarr's] tape is shit. His metrics is shit. Trae couldn't turn Damian Jones into Amare, how the f*** is he gonna take someone with far less big man abilities to that level when he's also really raw as a big wing?

Well, that is exactly what I think honestly, you can disagree with me, that's fine but you cannot question my honesty. I might be wrong, I already said it but I see a lot of Pau Gasol on him, Gasol also had poor stats but his minutes were also límited as with Sarr.

[NBASupes]

7 minutes ago, gurpilo said:

Well, that is exactly what I think honestly, you can disagree with me, that's fine but you cannot question my honesty. I might be wrong, I already said it but I see a lot of Pau Gasol on him, Gasol also had poor stats but his minutes were also límited as with Sarr.

What do you see in Sarr that reminds you of Pau Gasol?

[Final_quest]

35 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

[] [Sarr's] tape is shit. His metrics is shit. Trae couldn't turn Damian Jones into Amare, how the f*** is he gonna take someone with far less big man abilities to that level when he's also really raw as a big wing?

That’s another issue that is mostly unaddressed.  They think he is an NBA center and don’t understand the huge leap it takes to project him as a 5.  

[gurpilo]

hace 5 minutos, NBASupes dijo:

What do you see in Sarr that reminds you of Pau Gasol?

His physical tools, his fluidity and agility, he is a little more athletic, less touch on the rim but the efficiency is similar. His shooting is also similar. Sarr has not been on any US program, look at the way both Gasol brothers body changed, I expect even bigger result on Sarr. Look at Anteto, the way European players body is transformed at US is more eye popping than any other US player.