Zach Edey Conundrum - Could Edey be the next great Atlanta Hawk or is he the next Cam Reddish

[Final_quest]

5 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Zach Edey and Patrick Mahomes are the two players I've seen with the most miscategorized scouting reports I've ever seen. Add Lamar Jackson as well. Those three. 

Here’s a question you may have already answered.  Apart from Sarr and Edey what other options do you like for the Hawks?  Could be a trade or picking someone else.

[NBASupes]

Let's understand this game: 

There is being relentless and bringing contact - Russ, MJ, Curry, Trae, Edey, Klay, Scola, Karl Malone, Crash, Moses Malone who might be both.

There is being a bully - Baron Davis, Deron Williams, Andre Miller, Sam Cassell, Shaq, J. Kidd, GP, Big Country Reaves, Paul Pierce, LeBron at times, Michael Redd, Derrick Coleman, Shelden, Culver, etc.

Bullies use the same formula consistently to invoke punishment on their opponents. 

Relentless guys use their mindset to give you a headache as they are relentless in their journey.

 

Relentless guys don't have to be bullies to be effective. Bullies don't have to be relentless to be effective. Guys like Shelden and Culver failed because they simply are too small to be bullies for their position in the NBA. Culver couldn't shoot well enough, dribble well enough, or run an offense well enough to be a PG where he could have still remained a bully at. 

Bullies was a lot more common in the 90s than today. Relentless players are more modern. 

6 minutes ago, Mikey said:

Ahh yes we know what the player is “AT BEST” because of one shooting szn at 19 years old 

At 19, we knew Luka was the best

At 19, we knew Wemby was the best

At 18, we knew Bron was the best

[marco102]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Let's understand this game: 

There is being relentless and bringing contact - Russ, MJ, Curry, Trae, Edey, Klay, Scola, Karl Malone, Crash, Moses Malone who might be both.

There is being a bully - Baron Davis, Deron Williams, Andre Miller, Sam Cassell, Shaq, J. Kidd, GP, Big Country Reaves, Paul Pierce, LeBron at times, Michael Redd, Derrick Coleman, Shelden, Culver, etc.

Bullies use the same formula consistently to invoke punishment on their opponents. 

Relentless guys use their mindset to give you a headache as they are relentless in their journey.

 

Relentless guys don't have to be bullies to be effective. Bullies don't have to be relentless to be effective. Guys like Shelden and Culver failed because they simply are too small to be bullies for their position in the NBA. Culver couldn't shoot well enough, dribble well enough, or run an offense well enough to be a PG where he could have still remained a bully at. 

Bullies was a lot more common in the 90s than today. Relentless players are more modern. 

At 19, we knew Luka was the best

At 19, we knew Wemby was the best

At 18, we knew Bron was the best

Luka's the best at what? because SGA out played him in that series and SGA was drafted way later.  Yes Luka's team moved on, but I'd say SGA showed he's a beast and I think he finished higher in the MVP voting as well. 

Edited May 19 by marco102

[NBASupes]

2 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Luka's the best at what? because SGA out played him in that series and SGA was drafted way later.  Yes Luka's team moved on, but I'd say SGA showed he's a beast and I think he finished higher in the MVP voting as well. 

SGA is a prime example of someone who no one saw as the best player in his draft. Few had him ahead of Trae but most would say Trae and NO ONE had SGA ahead of Luka. Hell, Ayton, Bamba, and Bagley were are way ahead of SGA. SGA kept getting better and better every single season. CP3 said, he hasn't seen another that improves as much as SGA. That's why I keep saying, this is the year we MUST get it right. Everyone must be evaluated. You don't ever want another Marvin draft again. 

[NBASupes]

What do we know about SGA? 

Like Zach Edey, he's from Canada

Like Zach Edey, he's known for his elite work ethic

Like Zach Edey, he gets better, each and every season. 

I like the SGA post because like SGA should have probably been our pick the year we picked Trae. Edey should easily be our pick, this year.

[marco102]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

SGA is a prime example of someone who no one saw as the best player in his draft. Few had him ahead of Trae but most would say Trae and NO ONE had SGA ahead of Luka. Hell, Ayton, Bamba, and Bagley were are way ahead of SGA. SGA kept getting better and better every single season. CP3 said, he hasn't seen another that improves as much as SGA. That's why I keep saying, this is the year we MUST get it right. Everyone must be evaluated. You don't ever want another Marvin draft again. 

So you don't think the Hawks are evaluating everyone for the number one pick?  If you were to draft the prospects based on current production, talent, fit, and future upside who would you select? 

Let's remove the fit for the Hawks.

[Wretch]

The only certainty about the NBA draft is that it's extremely top heavy.  If you're trying to win by rebuilding or selecting potential impact player, your best shot is casting a net at the consensus group of players at the very top.  That doesn't mean there aren't diamonds in the rough.  It's just that these are the players that have been scouted the most and are universally agreed upon as the best the class has to offer.  Nobody knows exactly what these guys will amount to, but check any previous draft and you'll generally find the impact players right where they need to be.

This is how I typically start with my picks.  I study what the experts see and take into account what everyone is saying (including people here on the Squawk).  The next thing is where I feel like GM's fail when making picks - nuance.  I look at the consensus top picks, their basic stats, their mechanics, their intangibles, and then I weigh that against need/BPA.  You can find most of these receipts on the Squawk, these are the picks I settled on and/or related thought processes at the time (spoiler tag added to cut down the size of this book):

Spoiler

2001 - I HATED the way Pete Babcock viewed the lottery and I was LIVID that we didn't keep Gasol
2004 - I wanted to tank for Howard, but Luol Deng was who I wanted at that slot (I was also hoping that Livingston would fall).  I felt like we could have come up with a better package for the #7 than what Phoenix accepted.
2005 - Chris Paul and I was very loud about it.  I wanted to trade down for a PG and take either him or Deron.  We didn't need Marvin, but I felt he would have been a better prospect than Bogut (who didn't think was going to be as impactful as many did).
2006 - Brandon Roy, but NGL...I was sure that Adam Morrison was going to be great (he had some serious challenges adapting and injuries)
2007 - I was hoping that we'd end up 2nd, so that we didn't have to choose between Durant and Oden and screw it up (I wanted Durant) I was not happy about landing 3rd and ending up with Horford.  I thought he was everything the scouts said he would be - a good, high BBIQ, high floor, but not great player.  There was no other player I was even remotely interested in besides the top 3 (and maybe Brewer)
2018 - Luka is the prospect that I studied for over a year and wanted him desperately 
2019 - I wasn't happy with where we were drafting.  I thought for sure we'd Zion, or the top choice of one of the many equally talented wings (with Culver having an edge with me).  The only guy I didn't want was Jaxon Hayes.
2020 - I wanted to trade up for Lamelo Ball

This year, I started looking early at who we might be able to draft.  There were a few players around the late lottery that I took a cursory glance at, but I decided to check out Sarr to see why he was ranked so high even though I knew we'd have no shot at him.  I've put up enough words here, and over the last week, so I'm not going to get back into why I'd take him first. 

I'll just say that he's the pick for me without question.

Side note...  If we traded Trae, not at all saying that's what we should do, or that's what I want to do, and certainly not advocating trading Trae for a lottery pick in this draft.  However, ****IF**** we did trade him, and started rebuilding, and added another pick from this lottery then Reed Sheppard is the other player I'd be interested in.

Ok.  That's it for my receipt on this draft. I'll eventually take an obligatory look at Risacher for gits and shiggles, but I'm 100% sold on Sarr.

[marco102]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

What do we know about SGA? 

Like Zach Edey, he's from Canada

Like Zach Edey, he's known for his elite work ethic

Like Zach Edey, he gets better, each and every season. 

I like the SGA post because like SGA should have probably been our pick the year we picked Trae. Edey should easily be our pick, this year.

Don't do this.  This is so unserious. 

Also, you were not talking about SGA during that draft so don't hindsight 20/20 this. So "like" SGA should have been our pick, don't do that.

[NBASupes]

Just now, marco102 said:

So you don't think the Hawks are evaluating everyone for the number one pick?  If you were to draft the prospects based on current production, talent, fit, and future upside who would you select? 

Let's remove the fit for the Hawks.

I am saying they need to evaluate everyone seriously. Don't be Cleveland 2013. They evaluated Deron and CP3 heavily in 2005 but made a bad decision based on UPSIDE

[theheroatl]

2 minutes ago, Wretch said:

The only certainty about the NBA draft is that it's extremely top heavy.  If you're trying to win by rebuilding or selecting potential impact player, your best shot is casting a net at the consensus group of players at the very top.  That doesn't mean there aren't diamonds in the rough.  It's just that these are the players that have been scouted the most and are universally agreed upon as the best the class has to offer.  Nobody knows exactly what these guys will amount to, but check any previous draft and you'll generally find the impact players right where they need to be.

This is how I typically start with my picks.  I study what the experts see and take into account what everyone is saying (including people here on the Squawk).  The next thing is where I feel like GM's fail when making picks - nuance.  I look at the consensus top picks, their basic stats, their mechanics, their intangibles, and then I weigh that against need/BPA.  You can find most of these receipts on the Squawk, these are the picks I settled on and/or related thought processes at the time (spoiler tag added to cut down the size of this book):

  Reveal hidden contents

2001 - I HATED the way Pete Babcock viewed the lottery and I was LIVID that we didn't keep Gasol
2004 - I wanted to tank for Howard, but Luol Deng was who I wanted at that slot (I was also hoping that Livingston would fall).  I felt like we could have come up with a better package for the #7 than what Phoenix accepted.
2005 - Chris Paul and I was very loud about it.  I wanted to trade down for a PG and take either him or Deron.  We didn't need Marvin, but I felt he would have been a better prospect than Bogut (who didn't think was going to be as impactful as many did).
2006 - Brandon Roy, but NGL...I was sure that Adam Morrison was going to be great (he had some serious challenges adapting and injuries)
2007 - I was hoping that we'd end up 2nd, so that we didn't have to choose between Durant and Oden and screw it up (I wanted Durant) I was not happy about landing 3rd and ending up with Horford.  I thought he was everything the scouts said he would be - a good, high BBIQ, high floor, but not great player.  There was no other player I was even remotely interested in besides the top 3 (and maybe Brewer)
2018 - Luka is the prospect that I studied for over a year and wanted him desperately 
2019 - I wasn't happy with where we were drafting.  I thought for sure we'd Zion, or the top choice of one of the many equally talented wings (with Culver having an edge with me).  The only guy I didn't want was Jaxon Hayes.
2020 - I wanted to trade up for Lamelo Ball

This year, I started looking early at who we might be able to draft.  There were a few players around the late lottery that I took a cursory glance at, but I decided to check out Sarr to see why he was ranked so high even though I knew we'd have no shot at him.  I've put up enough words here, and over the last week, so I'm not going to get back into why I'd take him first. 

I'll just say that he's the pick for me without question.

Side note...  If we traded Trae, not at all saying that's what we should do, or that's what I want to do, and certainly not advocating trading Trae for a lottery pick in this draft.  However, ****IF**** we did trade him, and started rebuilding, and added another pick from this lottery then Reed Sheppard is the other player I'd be interested in.

Ok.  That's it for my receipt on this draft. I'll eventually take an obligatory look at Risacher for gits and shiggles, but I'm 100% sold on Sarr.

That is getting glossed over somewhat..

 

it’s safer to take a look at the top 3 and not expand out of that.. when you do you risk a Anthony Bennett

[Mikey]

17 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Let's understand this game: 

There is being relentless and bringing contact - Russ, MJ, Curry, Trae, Edey, Klay, Scola, Karl Malone, Crash, Moses Malone who might be both.

There is being a bully - Baron Davis, Deron Williams, Andre Miller, Sam Cassell, Shaq, J. Kidd, GP, Big Country Reaves, Paul Pierce, LeBron at times, Michael Redd, Derrick Coleman, Shelden, Culver, etc.

Bullies use the same formula consistently to invoke punishment on their opponents. 

Relentless guys use their mindset to give you a headache as they are relentless in their journey.

 

Relentless guys don't have to be bullies to be effective. Bullies don't have to be relentless to be effective. Guys like Shelden and Culver failed because they simply are too small to be bullies for their position in the NBA. Culver couldn't shoot well enough, dribble well enough, or run an offense well enough to be a PG where he could have still remained a bully at. 

Bullies was a lot more common in the 90s than today. Relentless players are more modern. 

At 19, we knew Luka was the best

At 19, we knew Wemby was the best

At 18, we knew Bron was the best

What does this have to do with how his shooting can improve lol? 

[Wretch]

2 minutes ago, theheroatl said:

That is getting glossed over somewhat..

 

it’s safer to take a look at the top 3 and not expand out of that.. when you do you risk a Anthony Bennett

Yes indeed.  It's a pretty safe bet that your pick is among the consensus at the top.  You can make a nuanced pick for need and come out ahead sometimes - and we very nearly did with Trae and the 2019 draft.  You're more likely to pick your way out of a draft and end up in draft blunder articles for years to come fooling around though.

[NBASupes]

5 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Don't do this.  This is so unserious. 

Also, you were not talking about SGA during that draft so don't hindsight 20/20 this. So "like" SGA should have been our pick, don't do that.

It's not a serious post. The final part was very serious. Draft the best person who's also the best player. 

If a guy has the work ethic, size, ability to want to improve, always improves, coachable, is in a optimal fit with Trae. I don't see why you don't draft Edey. I just don't. 

Hindsight, we clearly should have taken SGA. He's special man. He's way better than I though he would be and I was high on him too but damn. I didn't see this. He just never stopped getting better like Jokic. 

5 minutes ago, marco102 said:

Don't do this.  This is so unserious. 

Also, you were not talking about SGA during that draft so don't hindsight 20/20 this. So "like" SGA should have been our pick, don't do that.

It's not a serious post. The final part was very serious. Draft the best person who's also the best player. 

If a guy has the work ethic, size, ability to want to improve, always improves, coachable, is in a optimal fit with Trae. I don't see why you don't draft Edey. I just don't. 

Hindsight, we clearly should have taken SGA. He's special man. He's way better than I though he would be and I was high on him too but damn. I didn't see this. He just never stopped getting better like Jokic. 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, Mikey said:

What does this have to do with how his shooting can improve lol? 

Shooting in the game is hard as hell for young players. The speed of the game is the biggest reason. He has to handle that, the length of defenders and reaction time, and then he has to improve the consistency of his shooting form. This could be years in the making. 

[marco102]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

It's not a serious post. The final part was very serious. Draft the best person who's also the best player. 

If a guy has the work ethic, size, ability to want to improve, always improves, coachable, is in a optimal fit with Trae. I don't see why you don't draft Edey. I just don't. 

Hindsight, we clearly should have taken SGA. He's special man. He's way better than I though he would be and I was high on him too but damn. I didn't see this. He just never stopped getting better like Jokic. 

LOL you literally described Sarr.  I understand you invested a lot of time scouting Edey and what he brings.  Even you deep down know Sarr should be the pick because there's no way you can take Edey at number 1. You've admitted that and you know the consensus out there is that Sarr should be number 1. 

Like what are we doing here? It's not a debate about Sarr or Edey. It's debate about Sarr or that other french kid and probably Ron Holland or something.

We are going to end up with Sarr because he's the best big man in our range.  I don't know how to tell you to deal with that, but please do. It's okay to like a prospect in Edey, he's a good prospect, but we ain't picking him. Don't know how to say that any other way.  If we drop down, trade the pick, and trade Trae and get San Antonio's picks, we still are not taking Edey. 

Edey is going  outside of the top 10. That has nothing to do with his talent, it's just a lot of teams in that range don't need his services. 

Edited May 19 by marco102

[NBASupes]

8 hours ago, marco102 said:

LOL you literally described Sarr.  I understand you invested a lot of time scouting Edey and what he brings.  Even you deep down know Sarr should be the pick because there's no way you can take Edey at number 1. You've admitted that and you know the consensus out there is that Sarr should be number 1. 

Like what are we doing here? It's not a debate about Sarr or Edey. It's debate about Sarr or that other french kid and probably Ron Holland or something.

We are going to end up with Sarr because he's the best big man in our range.  I don't know how to tell you to deal with that, but please do. It's okay to like a prospect in Edey, he's a good prospect, but we ain't picking him. Don't know how to say that any other way.  If we drop down, trade the pick, and trade Trae and get San Antonio's picks, we still are not taking Edey. 

Edey is going  outside of the top 10. That has nothing to do with his talent, it's just a lot of teams in that range don't need his services. 

No I haven't bro. His work ethic is good but it ain't special. No one is saying Sarr work ethic is amazing. Everyone says Edey's is. And is he is the worst fit I can think of for Trae. Even worst fit than Ware but he does want it way more than Ware does and miles more talented than Ware. 

Man, we are going to see eye to eye. You have this vision of what Sarr is and it's one I don't share at all. I think he's gonna bust in Atlanta massively and I don't want to see the day it happens. You do and you think otherwise. I don't know what to say. If it happens, it will be the worst day for both of us. You when we look back at this 5 years later and me for that moment. Especially something as passionate as this.

To be frank, I won't be happy either way because if he fails, that only hurts the team I love and that sucks. I had sleepless nights when we took Marvin. I don't know what I would do if we did the same for Sarr. I hope we come to an elite decision and take Edey or move down and take Edey or a good one and take Risacher. 

Every single post I've read recently defending Sarr is an Atlanta fan and an excuse comes right behind it. You know who did that on RealGM for months after we took Reddish? Me. Guess who was wrong? Me. 

When you gotta make excuses for the guy or say, it's really the team's fault, man... 

For example, Purdue didn't let Edey take shots from range. Do I say, man, Edey can really shoot, just wait till he's in the NBA. I just say, he is capable of shooting but he wasn't allowed to at Purdue, while we can't give him that as an excuse, it could be something to watch for when he's in the NBA. 

Whereas I am on Reddit, I see this kid named SaltyTraeYoungStan. Every post is him excusing Sarr for something. He's just 19. His team didn't help. It's excuse central. When you gotta make excuses, your guy is likely some bullshit. The reason I say this is my Cam Reddish support was litter in bullshit. Man, Coach K is getting old, he ain't trying to coach shit anymore. It was a lot of excuses.

I am not mad at any Sarr supporter who's new or whatever. I just don't see what you see and I honestly, think he's a massive bust. I don't even know what his mid-outcome could be and that scares me. 

[marco102]

7 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

No I haven't bro. His work ethic is good but it ain't special. No one is saying Sarr work ethic is amazing. Everyone says Edey's is. And is he is the worst fit I can think of for Trae. Even worst fit than Ware but he does want it way more than Ware does and miles more talented than Ware. 

Man, we are going to see eye to eye. You have this vision of what Sarr is and it's one I don't share at all. I think he's gonna bust in Atlanta massively and I don't want to see the day it happens. You do and you think otherwise. I don't know what to say. If it happens, it will be the worst day for both of us. You when we look back at this 5 years later and me for that moment. After that, I am just putting my foot on everyone's neck. Especially something as passionate as this.

To be frank, I won't be happy either way because if he fails, that only hurts the team I love and that sucks. I had sleepless nights when we took Marvin. I don't know what I would do if we did the same for Sarr. I hope we come to an elite decision and take Edey or move down and take Edey or a good one and take Risacher. 

Every single post I've read recently defending Sarr is an Atlanta fan and an excuse comes right behind it. You know who did that on RealGM for months after we took Reddish? Me. Guess who was wrong? Me. 

When you gotta make excuses for the guy or say, it's really the team's fault, man... 

For example, Purdue didn't let Edey take shots from range. Do I say, man, Edey can really shoot, just wait till he's in the NBA. I just say, he is capable of shooting but he wasn't allowed to at Purdue, while we can't give him that as an excuse, it could be something to watch for when he's in the NBA. 

Whereas I am on Reddit, I see this kid named SaltyTraeYoungStan. Every post is him excusing Sarr for something. He's just 19. His team did help. It's excuse central. When you gotta make excuses, your guy is likely some bullshit. 

You keep bringing up your miss on Reddish.  That has nothing to do with Sarr.  You aren't going to like any big man.  Why aren't we discussing the most likely picks? It's like you can't get past the fact that the Hawks won't select Edey. Let it go man.  Any  big man we bring up you aren't going to like because for some reason you want Edey. It's nonsensical to me.  Like, if any other team had the number 1 pick, you'd be like yeah they should take Sarr. But you act like Trae is some trashcan that can't play with anyone.  He's literally made every big and wing he's played with better. Name one who's left the team and had more individual success without him.  Even Dejounte is putting up career numbers beside him. 

Let's not discuss Sarr.  Let's not discuss Edey. Let's talk about the other 2 or 3 more likely picks.

Also, it's not  so serious for you to lose sleep and all that. It's not the end of the world man. People are dying in wars and going hungry. Get some perspective.  If it's causing you to lose sleep, please step away man. I'm not saying that to be funny but for your health and safety. 

Edited May 19 by marco102

[NBASupes]

When it comes to Sarr, I've seen every comparison. I don't know one that comes close. Nerlens Noel, naw. 

Noel wasn't close to Sarr defending 1-4 but he's superior defending 5s to Sarr and he wasn't even good at it. He also was a tremendous drop defender early in his NBA career. One of the better ones in the last 10 years. 

Noel was offensively limited but he was good at what he was good at. Sarr ain't good at shit that has any type of volume but dunks and that's not good, that's bad. Especially when he shies away from contact. 

IDK, the upside is obvious. If the handles come, the shot comes, he develops a skill-set like JJ did, passing becomes decent, and he already has the open court and dunking skills, then wow, he could be special as a 4 but man, what if it doesn't come. 

To me, the risk is WAY too much for a pick at 8. Maybe even 12. At 15 in this draft, I would easily take Sarr. Patience is needed to an extreme degree. 

[JeffS17]

Feel like Supes love of Edey, that wasn't supported by most here, turned into Sarr hatred as soon as Sarr was the consensus player everyone wanted.  The entire forum has been derailed on this merry-go-round of moving goal posts and contradictory statements. 

[JeffS17]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

To me, the risk is WAY too much for a pick at 8. Maybe even 12. At 15 in this draft, I would easily take Sarr. Patience is needed to an extreme degree. 

lol, 15th pick.  This is how I know you're unserious, I honestly think you just enjoy being a contrarian sometimes going against consensus like it's a sport