2024 Hawks Offseason Thread: Draft Over: What's Next?

[REHawksFan]

2 minutes ago, Jody23 said:

With the 1st pick, Kobe Bufkin, and possibly Mo Gueye being in the rotation next season, I don't think the Hawks want to add another rookie to that.  They're still trying to win next season.  They probably want to bring back more win now pieces with any possible trade of DJ.

I agree with this. The only way trading into the draft for a 2nd 1st round pick makes sense is if they target a guy like Kenecht who is older and could play immediately. Otherwise, you lose too much in the short term. 

[NBASupes]

1 hour ago, Final_quest said:

Those trades for Gafford and Washington were on target.  Killer moves.  
I think the Knicks might regret signing OG to a huge contract, but the Villanova guys are gonna sustain that franchise.

We could have moved Collins when he had value.  That was a huge miss.  Collins was completely fumbled from the signing to the timing of the trade.  

Dallas understands Luka a lot more than we understand Trae in my opinion. 

When we realize that, I think we may be able to take a step forward.

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, NBASupes said:

Dallas understands Luka a lot more than we understand Trae in my opinion. 

When we realize that, I think we may be able to take a step forward.

It starts with the front office to get on the same page or even get in the same book.

I said before Travis had the right idea drafting length in Huerter, Cam, Hunter, OO and JJ around Trae - they just didn't all work but at least the 'idea' was there.

Then ownership happened. There is no singular plan to contention. Rudderless ship flowing with the tide.

[kg01]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Dallas understands Luka a lot more than we understand Trae in my opinion. 

When we realize that, I think we may be able to take a step forward.

They understand Trae plenty well.  They understand they can make money off him whether they build a winner or not.

In fact, it's easier to do so if they avoid adding salary around him. 

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

It starts with the front office to get on the same page or even get in the same book.

I said before Travis had the right idea drafting length in Huerter, Cam, Hunter, OO and JJ around Trae - they just didn't all work but at least the 'idea' was there.

Then ownership happened. There is no singular plan to contention. Rudderless ship flowing with the tide.

I believe it starts with action and planning.

Dallas realized in year 1, this group around Luka isn't gonna work. They traded everyone in his rookie year and said they are only going to find fits that Luka. 

Did it work, partly but missed on KP like we missed on Murray but Murray got better for us, KP got worse. 

They traded KP in the season for fit and it worked, they went to the WCF. 

The issue was, they realize, they aren't good enough to win a title the next year, they traded for Kyrie who based on their scout seems like a tremendous fit with Luka. Well, they had flashes but athleticism regressed way too much with Kyrie due to the trade. That offseason, they got fits who had the athleticism needed and BBIQ who are optimal fits around heliocentric Luka. P.J., Lively, Gafford, Jones Jr. 

Now they are two games from the NBA Finals. 

What they do?

They aren't scared to trade when shit clearly doesn't work. KP and Grant Williams was traded as soon as they knew for sure it doesn't work. 

They do their homework. They know Luka is heliocentric and you just gotta fit what he does, not him adjusting to what you do. Everyone Says the ball moves a lot better without Luka but their effectiveness is shit without Luka, so what. That means the ball moving more doesn't mean shit. 

The Mavs did this before with Dirk and now with Luka. He knows how to build a team around a star and he doesn't mind making bad decisions and going away from them. 

With the Hawks, I really don't see that. I still don't know if we know how to build around Trae. 

I still don't understand the Bufkin pick for Trae. I understand it for Quin but not for Trae. He's never going to be big enough to be his backcourt mate. Things like this make me think the Hawks don't know Trae or they just don't care. I never got that feeling with the Mavs. All of their picks since Luka has Luka in mind. 

[NBASupes]

12 minutes ago, kg01 said:

They understand Trae plenty well.  They understand they can make money off him whether they build a winner or not.

In fact, it's easier to do so if they avoid adding salary around him. 

That's understanding his financial benefit, I am talking about putting players around him that makes sense. 

Bogi made sense

Capela in the middle of his prime definitely made sense 

Gallo made sense even though he was outside of his prime and is clearly now done. 

Those moves made sense and it got them to the ECF.

But JC for 5/80 would have made sense but JC 5/125 was a horrendous contract for a PnR 4 who was undersized as a 4 and losing athleticism. I asked Jazz fans and they all agreed and said his current worth is 4/35, his regression has killed him even if he's still a decent player. 

We just don't adjust. Dallas did. They didn't settle for the ECF being as good as it gets. Also, the Murray trade was a disaster at the rumor phase and then the trade was horrendous in terms of value. I just don't know if the Hawks have a capable management. 

Even with Murray trade not working, at least he got better under Quin. That said, he needs to be moved. 

So many issues. We hold players too long. Capela is now washed. We should have moved him this summer for just a TPE and a couple of 2nds. 

Bey is probably the only good move. While he had his struggles with open 3s, his +/- was great for us. Him and Bogi fit Trae. That was a good move for us. 

If I am the GM

I am trading OO - too small, doesn't fit Trae,  can't protect the paint

Hunter - too streaky, he needs more real touches, he was way better with Murray than Trae even if he has a winning record with Trae than the others, that's just due to the rest not being big wings and big wings being critical in today's NBA 

Capela - washed, we don't need washed players, really no one does. 

Obviously Murray

The only players that fit Trae and aren't washed right now is JJ, Bogi, and Bey. Everyone can go. That's what Dallas would do. 

If you don't fit Luka, get the hell outta here. 

Players I would target

Michael Porter Jr - this Gen Peja, his role in Denver is perfect for Trae. 

Zach Edey - Optimal fit for Trae of anyone I've seen. 

Clingan- Optimal fit is the Hawks, Mavs, Grizzlies, Clippers, OKC, etc. Anywhere its drive and kick plus high screen and roll with some DHO actions

Gobert is obvious but he's going nowhere

Herb Jones

Grayson Allen

KCP

Mikal

Jon Isaac

Sam Hauser 

... just a name of few. 

The thing is, even with new pieces, it may ruin the fit of some of the previous fits. Kyrie ruined several fits of the WCF team so they had to find new fits. So just getting fits aren't enough but in my mind, this is what the Hawks should do. Be aggressive. Don't be afraid to admit you made a mistake but sadly, the Hawks are short on time. 

That said, Dallas didn't even make the play in game last year. But just as quickly as you can get better, you can get much worse. 

[bleachkit]

26 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

I believe it starts with action and planning.

Dallas realized in year 1, this group around Luka isn't gonna work. They traded everyone in his rookie year and said they are only going to find fits that Luka. 

Did it work, partly but missed on KP like we missed on Murray but Murray got better for us, KP got worse. 

They traded KP in the season for fit and it worked, they went to the WCF. 

The issue was, they realize, they aren't good enough to win a title the next year, they traded for Kyrie who based on their scout seems like a tremendous fit with Luka. Well, they had flashes but athleticism regressed way too much with Kyrie due to the trade. That offseason, they got fits who had the athleticism needed and BBIQ who are optimal fits around heliocentric Luka. P.J., Lively, Gafford, Jones Jr. 

Now they are two games from the NBA Finals. 

What they do?

They aren't scared to trade when shit clearly doesn't work. KP and Grant Williams was traded as soon as they knew for sure it doesn't work. 

They do their homework. They know Luka is heliocentric and you just gotta fit what he does, not him adjusting to what you do. Everyone Says the ball moves a lot better without Luka but their effectiveness is shit without Luka, so what. That means the ball moving more doesn't mean shit. 

The Mavs did this before with Dirk and now with Luka. He knows how to build a team around a star and he doesn't mind making bad decisions and going away from them. 

With the Hawks, I really don't see that. I still don't know if we know how to build around Trae. 

I still don't understand the Bufkin pick for Trae. I understand it for Quin but not for Trae. He's never going to be big enough to be his backcourt mate. Things like this make me think the Hawks don't know Trae or they just don't care. I never got that feeling with the Mavs. All of their picks since Luka has Luka in mind. 

The front office might not be all in on Trae the way Dallas is on Luka. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked if Trae was traded this off season. Not saying I think that will happen, but it is certainly within the realm of possibility. 

[JayBirdHawk]

45 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

They aren't scared to trade when shit clearly doesn't work. KP and Grant Williams was traded as soon as they knew for sure it doesn't work. 

This more than anything.

We put guys on the trade market for years and do nothing, then their value keeps plummeting. Sometimes it's better to accept 80 cents on the dollar than wait and get 10 cents.

[kg01]

39 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

That's understanding his financial benefit, I am talking about putting players around him that makes sense. 

My point is they don't care about this because they don't need to. 

[NBASupes]

21 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

This more than anything.

We put guys on the trade market for years and do nothing, then their value keeps plummeting. Sometimes it's better to accept 80 cents on the dollar than wait and get 10 cents.

Yep and i understand it's harder with Trae. Luka is an elite post defender. As good as Harden was at it, Luka is better and it means you don't need a paint protector as much as you need a rim protector with Luka. With Trae, you need both. 

Also, PGs have been more readily available in the market over the last 3 years than our biggest need, a center. Gobert costed Minnesota 4 1sts, Kessler who was their 1st, Vando and Beasley. They paid a heavily premium, we decided to go with similar talent in Murray which is which is much cheaper that's a tremendously worse fit. The outcome, as you would expect if you just saw it playing out in your mind. It failed. 

What we need. The cost is on a premium.

Don't be scared!

Jalen Brunson left Dallas. But Kyrie was a superior move for Dallas. He's an elite isolation player who can hit open shots. That's what they need around Luka and they knew it would work because they saw Kyrie with LeBron. 

I just think we really haven't had many chances.

We did get it right once but the ceiling for that was a ECF run and it was instantly capped off. 

We just gotta find a right mix. If we can't then it will be too late. 

Edited May 25 by NBASupes

[bleachkit]

23 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

This more than anything.

We put guys on the trade market for years and do nothing, then their value keeps plummeting. Sometimes it's better to accept 80 cents on the dollar than wait and get 10 cents.

There are numerous reports that Ressler vetoed Schlenk's trades. If that's true, than I don't know how we get better. 

[JayBirdHawk]

24 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

There are numerous reports that Ressler vetoed Schlenk's trades. If that's true, than I don't know how we get better. 

. I remember him talking about the Milsap one.

[sturt]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I remember him talking about the Milsap one.

Not aware of Schlenk on that one... but I do know it was widely reported that Bud had an opportunity to trade Millsap and declined.

Maybe some are, but I'm not one who believes that Peter Antony approves or disapproves trades. He's claimed that doesn't happen. I fully believe him. And. I fully believe he's created an ecology where he can have it both ways... he can accurately say that doesn't happen, and yet, he still has the same influence as-if he did.

 

What do I mean? How many times have you floated some idea by your boss, and s/he didn't tell you "yes" or "no," but his/her questions left you with an unmistakable impression as to how it would be received if you were to implement said idea?

 

And what Ressler has done is to ensure that he never has such a strong-minded GM in that seat that his influence fails to win the day.... this was Schlenk's sin, imo... there came a point where Ressler felt Schlenk was beyond his influence.

[JayBirdHawk]

16 minutes ago, sturt said:

Not aware of Schlenk on that one... but I do know it was widely reported that Bud had an opportunity to trade Millsap and declined.

Not Schlenk...Ressler talking about he being the one who has final say when it came to BudCox.

Quote

During that series, in an interview with the AJC, Hawks owner Tony Ressler basically came out and said that he makes the final decisions when it comes to personnel moves, not President of Basketball Operations, Mike Budenholzer, nor the General Manager, Wes Wilcox (though Ressler said they have a say).

“I make the final decision,” he said.

“If you think Bud makes a final decision on everything that we do, you don’t understand the way the Atlanta Hawks are run. … The president of basketball operations is what I say it is, not what you say it is. (Budenholzer) has the loudest voice, not the final word. There’s a dramatic difference.”

When the notion of trading Paul Millsap reached his desk he responded with the acronym, “NFW”.

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2017/8/3/16068062/travis-schlenk-tony-ressler-atlanta-hawks-organization-plan

[sturt]

29 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Not Schlenk...Ressler talking about he being the one who has final say when it came to BudCox.

https://www.peachtreehoops.com/2017/8/3/16068062/travis-schlenk-tony-ressler-atlanta-hawks-organization-plan

I remember that "I have the final say" quote, but that was... when???... what year?... soooooo, relevance now? Regarding among the most ADD owners in all of professional sports?

I did not remember the "NFW" thing. I'd like to have more insight into that story, because what I recall was hearing that Ressler was kicking himself that next off-season for having let Bud have his way. Supposedly, Bud was in the minority. My suspicion is that the NFW was mainly to support his employee actually in charge of basketball operations, and not confident enough yet in his own NBA intelligence so early in his ownership tenure to feel strongly either way... not so much that he was voicing opinion about the trade itself. But that's just conjecture on my part.

 

Yeah, Jay, look... I know that you know... given that you recall that quote... you also recall about 6-ish weeks after Schlenk was let go and when the Nicky-is-running-the-front-office idea was peaking, that ATP decided it was time to do some media interviews again. He did one with AJC and he did one with Schlutz/The Athletic, and I'd bother to go dig it out, except... again... I know that you know exactly what I'm talking about.

But for those who don't know what I'm talking about... surely a minority, given the intelligence and cerebral capacity of the Squawk community... Schultz asked him point blank whether trading Trae would ever be an option... to which Ressler pointedly replied, that's a basketball decision that rests with the GM.

It's not that things have actually changed--he's still the same control freak that said those words Jay cited. It's that he perceived that wasn't the imagery that he wanted to present for marketing purposes. He's realized there is value in insulating himself a bit better from criticism.

So, as I said, he's adjusted how he frames it all. And again, I don't doubt whereas he once would give a final say, now he does not... but now... he doesn't need to.

First, he has an internal mole that gives him heads-up to everything going on.

And second, he exerts his due influence merely through his "challenging" (his verb to Schultz) whatever ideas are floated.

 

 

[terrell]

3 hours ago, bleachkit said:

The front office might not be all in on Trae the way Dallas is on Luka. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked if Trae was traded this off season. Not saying I think that will happen, but it is certainly within the realm of possibility. 

Schlenk wasnt even all in before he left..

Now Trae cerebral is taking passive shots at the new F.O.  lol

He did the same with a tweet about Siakam the other day....

 

Edited May 25 by terrell

[terrell]

4 hours ago, bleachkit said:

The front office might not be all in on Trae the way Dallas is on Luka. In fact, I wouldn't be shocked if Trae was traded this off season. Not saying I think that will happen, but it is certainly within the realm of possibility. 

No Trae hate, he's a good player and all,  but Fans need to stop trying to convince themselves that Trae is anywhere near Luka level...

The Mavs next best player after Luka/Kyrie has been a rookie in Lively. It's not like they're trotting out the 6th man of the year or any other star power outside of Luka/Kyrie.

He just provides MUCH MORE lineup versatility than Trae... He grabs rebounds better than most of our BIGS, can actually make passes OVER THE TOP so you cant trap him,  and can play multiple positions with his SIZE.. Trae cant do ANY of that..

2023-2024

eFG%

Luka 57.3%

Trae 51.6%

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=league+average+efg%+this+season

Note that Luka's eFG% is tied with 3rd place for team eFG% avg. Trae's eFG% would equate to 29th worst out of 30 team averages. Absolutely NO team will ever contend when its "star" is so inefficient on offense that he's worse than 29 out of 30 teams in terms of eFG%. You've got to be able to get a bucket when you need it. Not foul hunt. Not say a prayer. Not hope your besties with the refs. You've GOT to make shots efficiently. Kyrie Irving? Similar size to Trae. 57.3% eFG% this year. I'm not even suggesting your "star" needs to be at THESE levels, but if you are a SIGNIFICANT liability Defensively, yes, you have to.

6 years in, it's not far fetched seeing Luka win a championship at some point in his career

6 years in with Trae, we don't even know if he's a guy you can build around to clinch a top 6 seed in a weak Eastern conference. smh

It is what it is at this point..

Like I said before, LF has A LOT of tough decisions to make this offseason..

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25 by terrell

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, sturt said:

emember that "I have the final say" quote, but that was... when???... what year?... soooooo, relevance now?

You'd have to read the prior 2/3 pages for context on how it became a topic of conversation now. 

[sturt]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

now

By "now" I meant explicitly now... as-in, relevance to this dialogue you decided to engage... and by implication, my comment that preceded your post that specified that Ressler had reportedly vetoed trades before.

Now, to be fair to you, given the context, you apparently weren't suggesting that Schlenk got overruled (as had been alleged in bleach's comment you'd given response) but just that it's documented that ATP has a history of that.

Obviously, we agree.

In fact, it's got to just kill you that we agree as much as we do on all this... surely you've devised some way of delineating yourself from my position that it's not reasonable to aspire to this franchise achieving an NBA Finals appearance for as long as Tony Ressler is the owner... (have you?)... or anyone else or that matter whose talk and actions have demonstrated, he's all for spending money, but only at that moment in the timeline after the team has already achieved irrefutable ascension into the top tier of contenders without him having invested in any explicit and irrefutable way in that ascension.

(From a business person's perspective, it makes all the sense in the world, it really does.)

Sometimes I've been wise enough to follow your lead.*

As far as I would know, the only thing that separates us is that you get entertainment value just from the day to day drama, regardless of any actual reason to aspire to top tier success. And that's legit to me. You're not in denial the way I read so many others to be. And at the same time, you're not here just to pat yourself on the back every time something goes wrong, looking for ego gratification rooted in pessimism. I can no more criticize you for continuing to take interest than you would have had to criticize me back in college when I was an avid... you're not allowed to tell anyone this... All My Children fan. There was never going to be any ultimate feeling of success, only a continual rollercoaster of reasons to feel optimistic and to feel pessimistic... the whole idea being to keep me and others watching advertisers' commercials... ... big shots making money off of little people like me, sure, but it was okay... I could get the entertainment value I wanted, so it was all fair... and I could also walk away, of course, when that began to fail to be the case, and did.

 

 

* no sarcasm in that... it did take awhile though

[NBASupes]

6 hours ago, terrell said:

Schlenk wasnt even all in before he left..

Now Trae cerebral is taking passive shots at the new F.O.  lol

He did the same with a tweet about Siakam the other day....

 

I honestly thought this at the time of the trade. Once they got the right role players, I was correct. Then again, Kyrie was a great fit with LeBron. It shouldn't be a shock