Donovan Clingan or Alexander Sarr: Battle of 1st overall pick

[Hawkmoor]

2 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Apologies.  I honestly misunderstood your point.  
I am tired, too.  Supes called the Sarr reality weeks ago, and I just figured it out last week.  Guys are getting ready to riot over a raw as hell tweener.  

No problem. Thanks.  Again, its the process of talking about it, not the players.  

[KB21]

The only fans who call Sarr a tweener are those who think you have to be a traditional center to actually be a center.  

[KB21]

It’s almost like some are so turned off by a big who does modern big things that you really double down on the desire to get the traditional slow footed drop big that really can’t do anything else.  

[JTB]

On 6/15/2024 at 7:04 AM, KB21 said:

Sarr is my #1, but I’m not going to tear Clingan down just because I want Sarr.  Clingan’s defense is absolutely legit.  

In a comp to Clingan…one thing I will say about Gobert in Minny vs Gobert in Utah is the difference in perimeter defensive attackers.

minnys defense can be unstoppable vs all types of different offenses.

the reason minny loss the WCF was due to two things in my opinion and it’s not necessarily that they couldn’t stop Luka cause no one can. Minny loss due to their offense being terrible and not making Luka work defensively. Luka  was chillin on defense during that series which led to more sustainable energy offensively.

 

I like the idea of having Clingan as the defensive center piece to allow the perimeter players to play more aggressive and even cheat a bit on defense to lure them to Clingan. I believe there’s some unlocked doors on this teams perimeter regarding peskiness and assertiveness.

[Hawkish]

14 minutes ago, JTB said:

In a comp to Clingan…one thing I will say about Gobert in Minny vs Gobert in Utah is the difference in perimeter defensive attackers.

minnys defense can be unstoppable vs all types of different offenses.

the reason minny loss the WCF was due to two things in my opinion and it’s not necessarily that they couldn’t stop Luka cause no one can. Minny loss due to their offense being terrible and not making Luka work defensively. Luka  was chillin on defense during that series which led to more sustainable energy offensively.

 

I like the idea of having Clingan as the defensive center piece to allow the perimeter players to play more aggressive and even cheat a bit on defense to lure them to Clingan. I believe there’s some unlocked doors on this teams perimeter regarding peskiness and assertiveness.

I’ve also come around to having Clingan (especially if we aren’t sold on Sarr and we can pick up an asset moving to 2 or 3).

[Spud2nique]

Another mock has us taking Sarr.

https://dunkingwithwolves.com/posts/2024-nba-mock-draft-full-two-round-projections-french-prospect-soars

[Spud2nique]

Agree with above  

Dude has a very low chances of fizzling out. He’s too big quick versatile and good at defense to not translate. 

Edited June 17 by Spud2nique

[Vol4ever]

I'm on the Sarr train.  

[givemesome1ce1]

11 hours ago, KB21 said:

It’s almost like some are so turned off by a big who does modern big things that you really double down on the desire to get the traditional slow footed drop big that really can’t do anything else.  

Im not turned down by a big who does modern big things. I think some people are projecting Sarr to be way better offensively than what he is right now. Plus if it turns out he is better as a PF than as a center, than the whole roster construction of the hawks changes completely. You want Sarr to come off the bench for Jalen for years and or Jalen to run his knees and ankles out at the three? Sarr is not Wemby where he is a generational talent on defense and plays better as a center.
 

You can argue that Clingan could be a better fit for the team because we need a floor raiser for the defense and despite how much crap Capela gets, the Capela archetype has always been incredibly useful for this team. 

[KB21]

5 hours ago, givemesome1ce1 said:

Im not turned down by a big who does modern big things. I think some people are projecting Sarr to be way better offensively than what he is right now. Plus if it turns out he is better as a PF than as a center, than the whole roster construction of the hawks changes completely. You want Sarr to come off the bench for Jalen for years and or Jalen to run his knees and ankles out at the three? Sarr is not Wemby where he is a generational talent on defense and plays better as a center.
 

You can argue that Clingan could be a better fit for the team because we need a floor raiser for the defense and despite how much crap Capela gets, the Capela archetype has always been incredibly useful for this team. 

The only reason power forward is even being discussed with him is because of his modern skills.  
 

You look at him, see the skill set, and think PF.  I look at him, see the skill set, and see a C that can do PF things.  I look at Clingan, and I see a player that can only play C, and I see a C that will get played off the floor in the playoffs.  

[KB21]

At some point, the realization needs to sink in that the C position is changing, and these traditional sized plodding centers are being phased out in the NBA while 5 out offenses become the major scheme.  

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[givemesome1ce1]

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

The only reason power forward is even being discussed with him is because of his modern skills.  
 

You look at him, see the skill set, and think PF.  I look at him, see the skill set, and see a C that can do PF things.  I look at Clingan, and I see a player that can only play C, and I see a C that will get played off the floor in the playoffs.  

I (and bunch of credible people including draft experts) think he may be a PF in the NBA because Sarr moves like a wing and hasn’t gotten the basics of being a big man down yet. He’s not even a good screen setter and people are talking about him starting! He may never even learn those basics depending on his attitude or where he plays. 
 

everyone keeps talking about “oh Clingan will get played out of the playoffs” as if several teams with traditional centers like the Mavs, Wolves, and Knicks literally haven’t been successfully with those centers. We literally beat the Celtics twice last year with Clint playing 27 minutes a game and probably would’ve won the series if POA defense wasn’t so bad. We won two games against Boston this season with Clint and Bruno. Clingan will be fine. 
 

Also in either case we should hopefully try to keep okongwu because it helps the versatility of our team a lot. If we draft Sarr, OO probably starts. Don’t know if that happens with Clingan though. 

[benhillboy]

8 hours ago, givemesome1ce1 said:

Im not turned down by a big who does modern big things. I think some people are projecting Sarr to be way better offensively than what he is right now. Plus if it turns out he is better as a PF than as a center, than the whole roster construction of the hawks changes completely. You want Sarr to come off the bench for Jalen for years and or Jalen to run his knees and ankles out at the three? Sarr is not Wemby where he is a generational talent on defense and plays better as a center.
 

You can argue that Clingan could be a better fit for the team because we need a floor raiser for the defense and despite how much crap Capela gets, the Capela archetype has always been incredibly useful for this team. 

Fans won’t really appreciate Clint until he’s gone.  Granted he fell off from solid starter level pretty quickly, accelerated by nagging injuries.  He's gonna be replaced by someone more agile and fluid with better hands most likely, which isn’t hard to do.  But the loss of his defensive IQ and experience almost ensures the Hawks will remain near the bottom of the league in defensive efficiency.  
 

Prime aged Cs with 106-107 defensive ratings for regular & postseason don’t grow on trees which is even more impressive seeing as he isn’t the loudest communicator and has had very little resistance in front of him as a Hawk outside of Delon and Dre.  I count only about a dozen league wide who combine Clint’s awareness and selflessness on that end, keying stops, which then in turn fuels solid screening, rolling, sealing, etc on the other end.  Jarrett Allen and Hartenstein the only ones possibly available to the Hawks.  If the Hawks take Clingan and he’s a continuation of Lively and Chet on that end in terms of reading, movement, and communicating, being able to one-man zone off the paint and corner shooters type sh@t  I’ll be ecstatic.

Edited June 17 by benhillboy

[macdaddy]

Clint looked rough and out of shape early but toward the end he was much, much more like the old Clint.   His touch is getting worse but everything else is solid as you said.

Same happened with Bey.  Yeah he's not a gifted defender but he improved greatly and gave us some toughness but never shook the label of being a horrible defender.   I'll take a bad defender with grit, effort and stregth over a disinterested more talented one.  

[Final_quest]

13 minutes ago, givemesome1ce1 said:

I (and bunch of credible people including draft experts) think he may be a PF in the NBA because Sarr moves like a wing and hasn’t gotten the basics of being a big man down yet. He’s not even a good screen setter and people are talking about him starting! He may never even learn those basics depending on his attitude or where he plays.

I find it's difficult to appeal to authority like draft experts.  Every podcast I've listened to says the same things about Sarr that projects him to be more likely a 4 than a 3 or 5.  You can literally repeat what every "expert" you've listened to says, and it's glossed over with "he can learn to: X" or "You're saying he can never improve."  From my perspective there is a huge disconnect between what experts say and the fan takes on Sarr.  Sarr is the modern prototype center, no one I've listened to is even saying that.  

One problem our franchise has had is betting heavy on potential and upside.  At least we traded Cam, but we committed money to Dre and Collins as if they would become top 60 players.  Instead of trading them we believed they could improve and learn.  Now people don't see that our mistakes have been committing to unrealized potential and want to take the least skilled player at the top of the draft. 

Being good early and being the "polished" prospect might even translate to having more upside:

 

 

[macdaddy]

This is the thing though.  I think Sarr is already better than Clingan.  We're conditioned to think that guys who are really good in NCAA are better than other prospects.   NCAA is filled with guys who will never play in any pro league.  

[KB21]

8 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

This is the thing though.  I think Sarr is already better than Clingan.  We're conditioned to think that guys who are really good in NCAA are better than other prospects.   NCAA is filled with guys who will never play in any pro league.  

Even if you look at their analytics grades, like Kevin Pelton does, it's not like Sarr was this unproductive raw athlete in a pro league.  He had the third highest analytics score among all players in this draft.  Clingan was #1 and Sheppard was #2.  

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

This is the thing though.  I think Sarr is already better than Clingan.  We're conditioned to think that guys who are really good in NCAA are better than other prospects.   NCAA is filled with guys who will never play in any pro league.  

Explain what you think that looks like in his rookie year.  Who is gonna be on the court with Sarr?

[macdaddy]

6 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

Explain what you think that looks like in his rookie year.  Who is gonna be on the court with Sarr?

I'm not sure what you mean.  if the Hawks draft him?   I think he'll start the year as a backup 4/5.  I think he could play with JJ and definitely with Clint or OO.  I think he's versatile but i don't see any reason he can't play both positions depending on matchups.  

Not sure i answered the question though.