A history lesson, Kwame Brown

[AHF]

@Spud2nique

@thecampster

@kg01

Let's get back on topic discussing whether Sarr is Kwame 2.0 and away from talking about poster behavior.

[thecampster]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

@Spud2nique

@thecampster

@kg01

Let's get back on topic discussing whether Sarr is Kwame 2.0 and away from talking about poster behavior.

Not sure what he'll turn out to, which is kind of what a small, select group of people felt about Kwame Brown. While the whole world was okay with him being the #1 pick, I was scared they'd take Gasol and he'd fall to us at 3. I was thrilled when Pau Gasol fell to Atlanta at #3 and then was subsequently crushed with the trade.

[AHF]

6 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Not sure what he'll turn out to, which is kind of what a small, select group of people felt about Kwame Brown. While the whole world was okay with him being the #1 pick, I was scared they'd take Gasol and he'd fall to us at 3. I was thrilled when Pau Gasol fell to Atlanta at #3 and then was subsequently crushed with the trade.

Cue the line of:  Atlanta has a bad habit of high upside Euros falling to them at #3 and then trading them away.

[kg01]

14 minutes ago, AHF said:

@Spud2nique

@thecampster

@kg01

Let's get back on topic discussing whether Sarr is Kwame 2.0 and away from talking about poster behavior.

I hear you.  But, just to be clear, I meant no ill will toward my guy @thecampster.  Just yanking his chain and having some good natured fun.  Ya know, like we used to do before all the legislation from some folks. 

[thecampster]

2 hours ago, macdaddy said:

2. Sarr will not spend the season in CP if we take him.  This ain't Nate's hawks.  He'll learn the system and be contributing by mid season because he has the physical tools to do it. 

So the biggest knock on Sarr is a lack of physicality. You can get into his body, he does box out but gets easily outmuscled.  He could play through this at Perth as a backup because he was playing against people much shorter than him.  Everyone in the NBA at his position will be within 3 inches and be at least 25lbs heavier (he's only 224 right now at 7'1").  There is also a lot less pick n roll play in that league, which is why there is a knock about him on both ends of the floor in the pick n roll game. He avoids the contact even when setting picks. He needs to set much better picks.

So if he's drafted, it is to be a 5 and it'll be easier to put him in the gym, put weight on him at College Park and coach him up on screening than it would be in the NBA.

[kg01]

15 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Not sure what he'll turn out to, which is kind of what a small, select group of people felt about Kwame Brown. While the whole world was okay with him being the #1 pick, I was scared they'd take Gasol and he'd fall to us at 3. I was thrilled when Pau Gasol fell to Atlanta at #3 and then was subsequently crushed with the trade.

I think things are so different now from an assessment standpoint due largely to Brown's sort of failure as well as several other high schoolers drafted around that time.

I dont think anything in terms of personal makeup and other factors that contributed to him not reaching his ceiling, still get missed today.

Long story long, I think Brown would be the reason another Brown would not exist again.

IOW, Brown fell so Sarr could walk. 

[macdaddy]

As far as the comparison goes, Sarr is a little taller with a greater wingspan, more athletic and has shown a good shooting stroke.   He's much leaner now than Kwame was but that's a good thing for his mobility and ability to defend wings.  So i think he's a much, much better prospect that Kwame. 

[AHF]

12 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I hear you.  But, just to be clear, I meant no ill will toward my guy @thecampster.  Just yanking his chain and having some good natured fun.  Ya know, like we used to do before all the legislation from some folks. 

Thanks guys!! Appreciate you guys all keeping it in good fun.  Tough to read tone on the internet sometimes, and I didn't want to see this turn into finger pointing or anything between fellow posters.  

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

As far as the comparison goes, Sarr is a little taller with a greater wingspan, more athletic and has shown a good shooting stroke.   He's much leaner now than Kwame was but that's a good thing for his mobility and ability to defend wings.  So i think he's a much, much better prospect that Kwame. 

Eh.  To me the biggest problem with Kwame was between his ears and that is really tough to nail in an evaluation of a teenager.  While Kwame was clearly overrated, I do get why he was a standout prospect and some of those guys hit and some miss.  I'm not sure that Kwame is a case where he didn't deserve to be a highly rated prospect as much as he ended up being one of the memorable busts which has lingered in the memory due in part to the stories of MJ's bullying of him.

Kwame 2.0 would probably also be well regarded by a lot of scouts.  Tough to tell the difference between Garnett (amazing physical specimen and raw teenager) and Kwame (outstanding physical specimen and raw teenager) when arguably the biggest difference is mental (elite competitor with a feel for the game and the work ethic to develop every area of his game vs scared and intimidated young man who didn't have the drive or joy for the game needed to overcome the pressure of performing).

[thecampster]

10 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I think things are so different now from an assessment standpoint due largely to Brown's sort of failure as well as several other high schoolers drafted around that time.

I dont think anything in terms of personal makeup and other factors that contributed to him not reaching his ceiling, still get missed today.

Long story long, I think Brown would be the reason another Brown would not exist again.

IOW, Brown fell so Sarr could walk. 

 

8 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

As far as the comparison goes, Sarr is a little taller with a greater wingspan, more athletic and has shown a good shooting stroke.   He's much leaner now than Kwame was but that's a good thing for his mobility and ability to defend wings.  So i think he's a much, much better prospect that Kwame. 

A little Sarr you haven't seen in his highlight clips. Nice 3 possession snippet. Watch 2:06 through 2:40.

 

 

Edited June 3 by thecampster

[kg01]

10 minutes ago, thecampster said:

 

A little Sarr you haven't seen in his highlight clips. Nice 3 possession snippet. Watch 2:06 through 2:40.

 

 

Honestly, it's not surprising that there are bad clips and/or bad games from the guy.  It underscores the fact that there's no clear generational talent available this year.

If Sarr hits, he's everything we want and need.  But he has to hit.

Does this mean we trade down?  I dunno.  I think the French wing is another guy 2 years from being 3 years away, which does nothing for us whether we blow it up or not.

I'm still of the mindset that we take Sarr and finally do our dang job and properly build out the roster - since that's where we won, not this pick. 

[kg01]

20 minutes ago, AHF said:

Thanks guys!! Appreciate you guys all keeping it in good fun.  Tough to read tone on the internet sometimes, and I didn't want to see this turn into finger pointing or anything between fellow posters.  

Yeah, we keep the real slings, arrows and personal threats in the pm's like real gentlemen. 

[thecampster]

1 minute ago, kg01 said:

Yeah, we keep the real slings, arrows and personal threats in the pm's like real gentlemen. 

Screw you hippie or I'll sling my reals at your gentlemen pms.

[thecampster]

5 minutes ago, kg01 said:

Honestly, it's not surprising that there are bad clips and/or bad games from the guy.  It underscores the fact that there's no clear generational talent available this year.

If Sarr hits, he's everything we want and need.  But he has to hit.

Does this mean we trade down?  I dunno.  I think the French wing is another guy 2 years from being 3 years away, which does nothing for us whether we blow it up or not.

I'm still of the mindset that we take Sarr and finally do our dang job and properly build out the roster - since that's where we won, not this pick. 

So as you go through those videos, don't pay attention to Sarr, pay attention to everyone else of the floor. The size of the bigs, the foot speed of the point guards.  It looks like a couple of mid majors came back a few years after college for a reunion game.  Seriously, scout the worst players on the floor and then realized that's who he was having trouble getting 5 boards a game on. Look at how short everyone is compared to him....he's not going to see that in the NBA.

[kg01]

12 minutes ago, thecampster said:

So as you go through those videos, don't pay attention to Sarr, pay attention to everyone else of the floor. The size of the bigs, the foot speed of the point guards.  It looks like a couple of mid majors came back a few years after college for a reunion game.  Seriously, scout the worst players on the floor and then realized that's who he was having trouble getting 5 boards a game on. Look at how short everyone is compared to him....he's not going to see that in the NBA.

We're on the same page there.  

But I'd ask that you cast that high-powered gaze at the guards that were unable to consistently make Edey's ice cream melt at the NCAA level as well.  A lotta them dudes gonna go pro in ... accounting or physical therapy. 

.... he's not going to see that in the NBA.

[thecampster]

For context, washed up Matthew Dellavedova is a rotation player over there.

He played a year ago for for the Sacramento Kings. Got into 32 games, scored 1.5 pts and 1.3 assists in 6.7 mpg.
Last year for Melbourne. 12.9 ppg, 6.3 apg.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 6/2/2024 at 8:34 AM, thecampster said:

6'11, 240lbs (290 when he left the league), can't miss potential. Freak athleticism. Taken #1 overall.

 

https://www.nbadraft.net/players/kwame-brown/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kwame_Brown

 

You don't draft "potential".

 2001 Draft - passed over for Kwame's potential

2 - Tyson Chandler 

3 - Pau Gasol (Hawks traded away for Shareef)

4 - Eddy Curry

5 - Jason Richardson
6 - Shane Battier

10 - Joe Johnson

13 - Richard Jefferson

19 - Zach Randolph

28 - Tony Parker

31 - Gilbert Arenas

38 - Mehmet Okur

What do all of these above have that Kwame didn't?  They averaged over 6.6 ppg (Kwame's career average).

 

Not mentioned, Troy Murphy, Bobby Simmons, Gerald Wallace, Jamaal Tinsley.

How's this for a conspiracy.  And maybe Kwame has alluded to such.

What if the great Michael Jordan had an adverse affect on Kwame Brown's development?

 

[thecampster]

Just now, kg01 said:

We're on the same page there.  

But I'd ask that you cast that high-powered gaze at the guards that were unable to consistently make Edey's ice cream melt at the NCAA level as well.  A lotta them dudes gonna go pro in ... accounting or physical therapy. 

.... he's not going to see that in the NBA.

The guard reference is to his block numbers in the NBL.

But he did hang 37 on Clingan while getting both Clingan and his backup in foul trouble.

In 2 games vs Indiana this year he hung 33/14 and 26/13 vs Kel'el Ware while holding Ware to 5/6, 11/8.  Ware is expected to go in the top 20 as well.

He didn't get to play Flipkowski or Missi but the results would have been the same. They were for everyone.

See below (please God do not let this become another Edey thread).  In 33 regular season games, mostly vs Big Ten talent, he was the leading scorer in 25 of those 33 games. He was the leading rebounder in 31 of 33.  Sarr was a backup center in the NBL.  The be fair to Edey comment...I am. They aren't even comparable. 

At the combine he beat him in lane agility and the shuttle run, lost to him by .15 seconds in the 3 quarter court sprint.  I'm saying that if he continues to rush putting weight on, Sarr's best trait (agility) might continue to suffer. In order for him to be a 5 for us, we need him to gain at least another 21 lbs (to be 245).  Those are big unknowns when Edey already beats him in many categories.

Okay, off the Edey kick....please don't sub sink this thread.

[thecampster]

1 minute ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

How's this for a conspiracy.  And maybe Kwame has alluded to such.

What if the great Michael Jordan had an adverse affect on Kwame Brown's development?

 

I've heard that and that's true for a lot of players. That different system, different coach, different team they could have been different.

[AHF]

A few quick comments which aren't meant to ignore Sarr's relatively minor minutes and numbers:

(1) Other players who have turned out to be quite good have had low numbers as teenagers in foreign pro leagues so that doesn't seem like quite the death knell that it might be (heck, our first round pick last year averaged 3 points a game playing against Big Ten bench players at the same age as Sarr was this season)

(2) Comparing Edey at 21 to Sarr at 18 is a bit of apples to oranges as far as long-term prospects for those two go due in large part to age.  This doesn't mean timeline isn't part of the discussion here but it can't be ignored.

(3) When given the chance, Sarr looked great against the Ignite players who are good chunk of this year's first round.  Holland probably has nightmares about that game.

(4) This is not to say Sarr will be the best player from this draft for sure or that he isn't going to need development.  He might be the best player but he won't be on day 1 and will take some time to become the player he is when he is mature.