Moderators AHF Posted July 25 Author Moderators Report Share Posted July 25 And yet he did some of the dumbest things in the court that we’ve seen over and over again. Something doesn’t click there. If you told me he had emotional issues and deliberately self-destructed his career and hurt his teams by moving to the perimeter on offense to get away from what he is best at and expose what he is worst at I might believe you but there was an obvious problem with his approach to the game that started a few years into his career and got worse as he matured as a player. I’m obviously talking about his fixation with long range shooting but I would be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge that he would periodically overextend himself with really ugly turnovers or similar plays that seemed made for Shaqtin a Fool type plays. He remains as the top of my list for guys I wish I could go back and convince to emphasize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses. He was an impressive defender, plus passer, and had the athleticism to attack the rim at a high rate of success. Sticking to that would have been so much better, imo. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBASupes Posted July 25 Report Share Posted July 25 5 hours ago, AHF said: And yet he did some of the dumbest things in the court that we’ve seen over and over again. Something doesn’t click there. If you told me he had emotional issues and deliberately self-destructed his career and hurt his teams by moving to the perimeter on offense to get away from what he is best at and expose what he is worst at I might believe you but there was an obvious problem with his approach to the game that started a few years into his career and got worse as he matured as a player. I’m obviously talking about his fixation with long range shooting but I would be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge that he would periodically overextend himself with really ugly turnovers or similar plays that seemed made for Shaqtin a Fool type plays. He remains as the top of my list for guys I wish I could go back and convince to emphasize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses. He was an impressive defender, plus passer, and had the athleticism to attack the rim at a high rate of success. Sticking to that would have been so much better, imo. I always felt like he had an insane BBIQ just based on what I've gathered from others like Al but his feel for the game was terrible. I always felt there are 3 things with IQ. Feel for the game BBIQ Awareness Trae has world class awareness. But he has bad feel for the game and his BBIQ is solid. Al is some with solid BBIQ but his awareness and feel for the game is exceptional. Smoove awareness is solid, his BBIQ is elite but his feel for the game is shit. Capela has average awareness but his feel and BBIQ is pretty good. Feel is how natural 5 on 5 is for you. Making the best reads both on and off the ball. Awareness is timing. Someone like OO timing is always off. His awareness is poor. Clint awareness is decent. Nothing to write about. Whereas someone like Brook Lopez has terrific awareness. BBIQ is how smart you are and see the game. Do you know what you are suppose to do and what your teammates are suppose to do. Do you know what the defense is doing. I wrote about this before in more detail on here. 2 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDawg#8 Posted July 25 Report Share Posted July 25 52 minutes ago, NBASupes said: I always felt like he had an insane BBIQ just based on what I've gathered from others like Al but his feel for the game was terrible. I always felt there are 3 things with IQ. Feel for the game BBIQ Awareness Trae has world class awareness. But he has bad feel for the game and his BBIQ is solid. Al is some with solid BBIQ but his awareness and feel for the game is exceptional. Smoove awareness is solid, his BBIQ is elite but his feel for the game is shit. Capela has average awareness but his feel and BBIQ is pretty good. Feel is how natural 5 on 5 is for you. Making the best reads both on and off the ball. Awareness is timing. Someone like OO timing is always off. His awareness is poor. Clint awareness is decent. Nothing to write about. Whereas someone like Brook Lopez has terrific awareness. BBIQ is how smart you are and see the game. Do you know what you are suppose to do and what your teammates are suppose to do. Do you know what the defense is doing. I wrote about this before in more detail on here. I give you a ton of shit but I thoroughly enjoyed this post and explanation of the 3. Conceptual in nature, but a premise I can get behind. I will be stealing some of your work and spouting it as my own in future basketball discussions. Good stuff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted July 25 Author Moderators Report Share Posted July 25 2 hours ago, NBASupes said: I always felt like he had an insane BBIQ just based on what I've gathered from others like Al but his feel for the game was terrible. I always felt there are 3 things with IQ. Feel for the game BBIQ Awareness Trae has world class awareness. But he has bad feel for the game and his BBIQ is solid. Al is some with solid BBIQ but his awareness and feel for the game is exceptional. Smoove awareness is solid, his BBIQ is elite but his feel for the game is shit. Capela has average awareness but his feel and BBIQ is pretty good. Feel is how natural 5 on 5 is for you. Making the best reads both on and off the ball. Awareness is timing. Someone like OO timing is always off. His awareness is poor. Clint awareness is decent. Nothing to write about. Whereas someone like Brook Lopez has terrific awareness. BBIQ is how smart you are and see the game. Do you know what you are suppose to do and what your teammates are suppose to do. Do you know what the defense is doing. I wrote about this before in more detail on here. What is the difference between "IQ" and "BBIQ"? I don't see IQ here as measuring "intelligence" like IQ tests historically do (ignoring that this is a complex topic by itself) since feel for the game and awareness won't necessarily show up on someone's IQ testing. Things like feel and awareness seem like part of BBIQ. That is why I would say Al is elite in BBIQ because of that feel and awareness. But it sounds like you think BBIQ doesn't include these things and so Al is only solid in BBIQ? I'm not clear on this. I think what you are calling IQ is what I would call BBIQ because how you see the game is a ton about your awareness and feel/instinct. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post kg01 Posted July 25 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 25 34 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said: I give you a ton of shit but I thoroughly enjoyed this post and explanation of the 3. Conceptual in nature, but a premise I can get behind. I will be stealing some of your work and spouting it as my own in future basketball discussions. Good stuff Please no, ReDD. Noooooo ... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benhillboy Posted July 25 Report Share Posted July 25 (edited) 7 hours ago, AHF said: And yet he did some of the dumbest things in the court that we’ve seen over and over again. Something doesn’t click there. If you told me he had emotional issues and deliberately self-destructed his career and hurt his teams by moving to the perimeter on offense to get away from what he is best at and expose what he is worst at I might believe you but there was an obvious problem with his approach to the game that started a few years into his career and got worse as he matured as a player. I’m obviously talking about his fixation with long range shooting but I would be remiss if I didn’t acknowledge that he would periodically overextend himself with really ugly turnovers or similar plays that seemed made for Shaqtin a Fool type plays. He remains as the top of my list for guys I wish I could go back and convince to emphasize his strengths and minimize his weaknesses. He was an impressive defender, plus passer, and had the athleticism to attack the rim at a high rate of success. Sticking to that would have been so much better, imo. I think his metrics with the Hawks capture his impact perfectly: 102 to 103 rating .99 WS/48 +.2 on/ +4.7 on/off net He had the “why” part down as to taking more threes. It’s the “who,” “when,” “where,” and “how” he never got the grasp of. And it was pretty simple: a .285 three point shooter is pretty much wasting possessions taking them especially when his miss quality usually prevents offensive rebounding opps. There was great balance in on/off with the 53 win team, ranging from +4 to +8 with the starters and Craw Dog. Always liked ole Woody even though he wasn’t too popular here. 50+ wins seems so distant now granted the league was much more watered down at the time. Edited July 25 by benhillboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDawg#8 Posted July 25 Report Share Posted July 25 16 minutes ago, kg01 said: Please no, ReDD. Noooooo ... Idk it makes a lot of sense. Like with Trae, he is clearly a gifted basketball player who makes otherworldly plays, but will still make bad decisions/poor shot selections. He isn’t dumb at basketball but there is a gap there between him and guys like Bron or Luka when it comes to making the right play at the right time consistently, and keeping the opponent off balance. How we define it (IQ, Feel,Awareness) can be debated, but there is a clear difference there. Trae is a savant as a passer. And I would argue that his “feel” in the Pick and Roll is on another planet. But he is the type of player who will force the issue or get caught up in the energy of the building and take a “heat check” 30 footer. That’s where you would want something to click and overcome the instinct to pull the trigger and let the play come to him. He is smart enough, however, not to be routinely baited in to bad decisions which is why he’s still an elite NBA player. Trae will make unforced errors, but he can still read your defense and take advantage of his opportunities. Take the trap, for instance. Using Supe’s premise: IQ - x’s and o’s. Trae knows what the trap is, he knows what to do against it on film. He knows which coaches want to throw the kitchen sink at him to get the ball out of his hand. He can tell you his reads against the trap. Feel - Trae doesn’t always anticipate the trap. He will still allow himself to walk in to it by not getting off the ball sooner. He won’t turn on the off ball switch and use his speed to give and go/ back cut aggressive defenders. If we are down and losing momentum, he will go against conventional wisdom and try to beat the trap himself and make a play (ie do too much) Awareness - even though Trae will put himself in to bad spots against the trap, he still has a higher chance of finding a play against it than 98% of other players. He may find a nutmeg pass to a teammate or turn the defenders with his eyes to hit a behind the back pass to a shooter. Things that can’t be taught, and are not considered good ideas to do on paper, but something only high processing players could even imagine as a possibility with fractions of a second to execute it. I could go on and on. I am in to this concept. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REHawksFan Posted July 25 Report Share Posted July 25 2 hours ago, NBASupes said: I always felt like he had an insane BBIQ just based on what I've gathered from others like Al but his feel for the game was terrible. I always felt there are 3 things with IQ. Feel for the game BBIQ Awareness Trae has world class awareness. But he has bad feel for the game and his BBIQ is solid. Al is some with solid BBIQ but his awareness and feel for the game is exceptional. Smoove awareness is solid, his BBIQ is elite but his feel for the game is shit. Capela has average awareness but his feel and BBIQ is pretty good. Feel is how natural 5 on 5 is for you. Making the best reads both on and off the ball. Awareness is timing. Someone like OO timing is always off. His awareness is poor. Clint awareness is decent. Nothing to write about. Whereas someone like Brook Lopez has terrific awareness. BBIQ is how smart you are and see the game. Do you know what you are suppose to do and what your teammates are suppose to do. Do you know what the defense is doing. I wrote about this before in more detail on here. Appreciate this. I really like the way you break it down. I do agree with @AHF that the terminology is a little confusing. Based on your descriptions, it reads more like there's 3 components of BBIQ: Feel, Awareness, and Understanding. I can see how all 3 play a part in a players overall BBIQ. Understanding being the Xs and Os part like @RedDawg#8 mentions below. Just a thought. 6 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said: Idk it makes a lot of sense. Like with Trae, he is clearly a gifted basketball player who makes otherworldly plays, but will still make bad decisions/poor shot selections. He isn’t dumb at basketball but there is a gap there between him and guys like Bron or Luka when it comes to making the right play at the right time consistently, and keeping the opponent off balance. How we define it (IQ, Feel,Awareness) can be debated, but there is a clear difference there. Trae is a savant as a passer. And I would argue that his “feel” in the Pick and Roll is on another planet. But he is the type of player who will force the issue or get caught up in the energy of the building and take a “heat check” 30 footer. That’s where you would want something to click and overcome the instinct to pull the trigger and let the play come to him. He is smart enough, however, not to be routinely baited in to bad decisions which is why he’s still an elite NBA player. Trae will make unforced errors, but he can still read your defense and take advantage of his opportunities. Take the trap, for instance. Using Supe’s premise: IQ - x’s and o’s. Trae knows what the trap is, he knows what to do against it on film. He knows which coaches want to throw the kitchen sink at him to get the ball out of his hand. He can tell you his reads against the trap. Feel - Trae doesn’t always anticipate the trap. He will still allow himself to walk in to it by not getting off the ball sooner. He won’t turn on the off ball switch and use his speed to give and go/ back cut aggressive defenders. If we are down and losing momentum, he will go against conventional wisdom and try to beat the trap himself and make a play (ie do too much) Awareness - even though Trae will put himself in to bad spots against the trap, he still has a higher chance of finding a play against it than 98% of other players. He may find a nutmeg pass to a teammate or turn the defenders with his eyes to hit a behind the back pass to a shooter. Things that can’t be taught, and are not considered good ideas to do on paper, but something only high processing players could even imagine as a possibility with fractions of a second to execute it. I could go on and on. I am in to this concept. Thus is also really good. And I agree on the logic here. Trae's feel for the game isn't always great and he definitely let's the energy of the game and building influence him from time to time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kg01 Posted July 25 Report Share Posted July 25 21 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said: Idk it makes a lot of sense. Like with Trae, he is clearly a gifted basketball player who makes otherworldly plays, but will still make bad decisions/poor shot selections. He isn’t dumb at basketball but there is a gap there between him and guys like Bron or Luka when it comes to making the right play at the right time consistently, and keeping the opponent off balance. How we define it (IQ, Feel,Awareness) can be debated, but there is a clear difference there. Trae is a savant as a passer. And I would argue that his “feel” in the Pick and Roll is on another planet. But he is the type of player who will force the issue or get caught up in the energy of the building and take a “heat check” 30 footer. That’s where you would want something to click and overcome the instinct to pull the trigger and let the play come to him. He is smart enough, however, not to be routinely baited in to bad decisions which is why he’s still an elite NBA player. Trae will make unforced errors, but he can still read your defense and take advantage of his opportunities. Take the trap, for instance. Using Supe’s premise: IQ - x’s and o’s. Trae knows what the trap is, he knows what to do against it on film. He knows which coaches want to throw the kitchen sink at him to get the ball out of his hand. He can tell you his reads against the trap. Feel - Trae doesn’t always anticipate the trap. He will still allow himself to walk in to it by not getting off the ball sooner. He won’t turn on the off ball switch and use his speed to give and go/ back cut aggressive defenders. If we are down and losing momentum, he will go against conventional wisdom and try to beat the trap himself and make a play (ie do too much) Awareness - even though Trae will put himself in to bad spots against the trap, he still has a higher chance of finding a play against it than 98% of other players. He may find a nutmeg pass to a teammate or turn the defenders with his eyes to hit a behind the back pass to a shooter. Things that can’t be taught, and are not considered good ideas to do on paper, but something only high processing players could even imagine as a possibility with fractions of a second to execute it. I could go on and on. I am in to this concept. I just meant that I can't take another hotSupes loose around here. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ABH Posted July 25 Report Share Posted July 25 (edited) Smoove didn't have any clue..after his Athletic ability went so did he..if he had any idea about BBIQ he would have played longer.. Edited July 25 by ABH Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted July 25 Author Moderators Report Share Posted July 25 37 minutes ago, benhillboy said: I think his metrics with the Hawks capture his impact perfectly: 102 to 103 rating .99 WS/48 +.2 on/ +4.7 on/off net He had the “why” part down as to taking more threes. It’s the “who,” “when,” “where,” and “how” he never got the grasp of. And it was pretty simple: a .285 three point shooter is pretty much wasting possessions taking them especially when his miss quality usually prevents offensive rebounding opps. There was great balance in on/off with the 53 win team, ranging from +4 to +8 with the starters and Craw Dog. Always liked ole Woody even though he wasn’t too popular here. 50+ wins seems so distant now granted the league was much more watered down at the time. Yeah, take a guess why the year we won 53 games and the year he had by far his best season and highest impact was that particular season. Any guesses? 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBASupes Posted July 25 Report Share Posted July 25 1 hour ago, AHF said: What is the difference between "IQ" and "BBIQ"? I don't see IQ here as measuring "intelligence" like IQ tests historically do (ignoring that this is a complex topic by itself) since feel for the game and awareness won't necessarily show up on someone's IQ testing. Things like feel and awareness seem like part of BBIQ. That is why I would say Al is elite in BBIQ because of that feel and awareness. But it sounds like you think BBIQ doesn't include these things and so Al is only solid in BBIQ? I'm not clear on this. I think what you are calling IQ is what I would call BBIQ because how you see the game is a ton about your awareness and feel/instinct. Overall IQ is a tad different than BBIQ. I understand that they are all playing ball but there are layers. The reason why so many players marvel about BBIQ of Smoove is because he knows all the plays, his role, your role, and he just understands it at an exceptionally high level. He just has no feel. He doesn't know how to execute when the play breaks down. These are things some guys like Risacher or Horford come natural to them. I do differenate because for players, it's a different skill set altogether. From what I've gathered with Al. He's not the best at plays. He can do his job but that's about it. He's amazing at feel. He can protect and help others just due to the way he feels the game. He's also aware. Now someone like Trae has generational awareness. He just knows how to adjust to 1001 situations and just is mentally hell to deal with. But his feel is poor. Hurts him off the ball. His BBIQ is solid but no one will confuse him for Rubio or CP3. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted July 25 Author Moderators Report Share Posted July 25 10 minutes ago, NBASupes said: Overall IQ is a tad different than BBIQ. I understand that they are all playing ball but there are layers. The reason why so many players marvel about BBIQ of Smoove is because he knows all the plays, his role, your role, and he just understands it at an exceptionally high level. He just has no feel. He doesn't know how to execute when the play breaks down. These are things some guys like Risacher or Horford come natural to them. I do differenate because for players, it's a different skill set altogether. From what I've gathered with Al. He's not the best at plays. He can do his job but that's about it. He's amazing at feel. He can protect and help others just due to the way he feels the game. He's also aware. Now someone like Trae has generational awareness. He just knows how to adjust to 1001 situations and just is mentally hell to deal with. But his feel is poor. Hurts him off the ball. His BBIQ is solid but no one will confuse him for Rubio or CP3. Thanks. I will say that I think most people use the term BBIQ to the way you use Overall IQ to also describe feel, knowing how to execute when the play breaks down, etc. so that they would describe Al Horford as being off the charts high BBIQ and Josh as a mixed bag with some real strengths but some glaring weaknesses on BBIQ. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benhillboy Posted July 25 Report Share Posted July 25 1 hour ago, AHF said: Yeah, take a guess why the year we won 53 games and the year he had by far his best season and highest impact was that particular season. Any guesses? I think Jamal sat him down and was like “bruh I regularly hit for 4 points out here. Just chill.” 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDawg#8 Posted July 25 Report Share Posted July 25 1 hour ago, AHF said: Thanks. I will say that I think most people use the term BBIQ to the way you use Overall IQ to also describe feel, knowing how to execute when the play breaks down, etc. so that they would describe Al Horford as being off the charts high BBIQ and Josh as a mixed bag with some real strengths but some glaring weaknesses on BBIQ. I agree with this. I think the term Understanding or Knowledge makes sense to differentiate from overall BBIQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedDawg#8 Posted July 25 Report Share Posted July 25 1 hour ago, NBASupes said: Now someone like Trae has generational awareness. He just knows how to adjust to 1001 situations and just is mentally hell to deal with. But his feel is poor. Hurts him off the ball. His BBIQ is solid but no one will confuse him for Rubio or CP3. BBIQ as you put it (or understanding/ Xs and Os as I see it) is the one category I believe a player will continue to grow in over time. Just spending enough time in a field you will get smarter at that subject. It may be a little improvement, it may be a huge improvement, but you will grow, especially in the right learning environments. This is why a coaching staff, Organizational focus, and locker room vets matter. There’s so much game that can be taught and passed down. Trae “should” get smarter over time with his understanding of the game with Quin as his HC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Dragitoff Posted July 25 Popular Post Report Share Posted July 25 Smoove lacked self-awareness. It's one thing to understand the game, have a feel for it, but blindness to your own abilities or inabilities can derail many positive traits. 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member JayBirdHawk Posted July 25 Premium Member Report Share Posted July 25 1 minute ago, Dragitoff said: Smoove lacked self-awareness. It's one thing to understand the game, have a feel for it, but blindness to your own abilities or inabilities can derail many positive traits. This.^ All This. He did not understand his limitations. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phunkabilly Posted July 25 Report Share Posted July 25 3 hours ago, AHF said: Yeah, take a guess why the year we won 53 games and the year he had by far his best season and highest impact was that particular season. Any guesses? LOL, that's about as telling as it gets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted July 25 Author Moderators Report Share Posted July 25 1 hour ago, Phunkabilly said: LOL, that's about as telling as it gets Which is legit sad for a home grown talent who loved the Hawks enough to get a Pac tatooed on his arm. He should have been a beloved fan favorite for his entire career in Atlanta instead of someone who people got so frustrated with that they were happy when he was pushed out the door at age 28. One of my regrets that things didn't work out better. Because they sure could have worked out better. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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