2024-25 Insider Thread

[Atlantaholic]

Pretty shocked people want Ayton. He is a negative rated defender at Center, which is tough to do, he's gotten worse each of the last two years after peaking in 2021-22, he's also good to miss around 20-30 games per season. Haven't even gotten into the questions sorrounding attitude. People really want to roll out negative defense for 30mpg at the Center position on this team? 

[JayBirdHawk]

It appears that, for now, all options for Okoro in restricted free agency have been exhausted. With that in mind, sources across the league have expressed to ClutchPoints that Okoro will pick up his $11.8 million qualifying offer from Cleveland. From there, Okoro is more or less betting on himself next season, which could be his last with the Cavs.

– via Clutch Points

[JayBirdHawk]

Hawks could use a rugged dirty work guy.

 

Quote

 

In six appearances for France, Yabusele averaged 14 points on 51.9% shooting and 3.3 rebounds and connected on 28.6% of his three-point attempts in 23.3 minutes per game. Although he hasn’t played in the NBA in five years, league sources tell ClutchPoints that the grit and two-way play has Yabusele back on NBA radars. Yabusele has made it clear he’s ready for an NBA comeback, and perhaps the former Boston Celtics forward has done enough to earn another shot in the NBA.

 If an NBA team is going to sign him, Real Madrid would need to be paid $2.5 million to buy out his current contract. NBA rules prevent teams from spending more than $850,000 to buy a player from an existing contract, meaning Yabusele would have to pay the rest.

 

– via Clutch Points

 

 

[AHF]

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

It appears that, for now, all options for Okoro in restricted free agency have been exhausted. With that in mind, sources across the league have expressed to ClutchPoints that Okoro will pick up his $11.8 million qualifying offer from Cleveland. From there, Okoro is more or less betting on himself next season, which could be his last with the Cavs.

– via Clutch Points

Is it really betting on yourself if you take the highest paying offer on the table?  It is betting on yourself to take a much bigger role on a team with a lower salary in a bet that you can land a bigger contract next year.  This feels more like Okoro's market simply dried up leaving him no other options.

[JeffS17]

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

This is a good point.  He had a complete falling out in Phoenix and I've read some fan perspectives on it.  They're not all of the opinion that Ayton alone was the problem.  I'm not making excuses for whatever mental struggles he's having, but certainly being dumped from a playoff contender back to square one didn't help.

I think here, there would be no questions about his touches or his role.  Trae and JJ would feed him literally as much as he could handle...and then some.

Portland probably wasn't of that mindset either when they acquired him, yet here they are ready to move on from him.  We're going in circles -- why would they not want him as a part of their future?  No one has really answered that question... to make way for younger players?  Why would they want to do that?  Ayton is young.  Is Portland not planning on being competitive until 2035 or something?

The one reason I could buy, that I haven't actually seen floated, is that it's Ayton himself that wants out and so Portland is moving him for rebuild assets.  That wouldn't make me feel any better, anyways, because he was just eager to get off a championship level team.  Guys that have situations where they can contend for championships and still aren't happy are red flags to me.  Most guys would kill to be able to compete for a ring.  Ayton seems to have priorities that supersede winning a championship, which is major red flag material.  

[AHF]

22 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Portland probably wasn't of that mindset either when they acquired him, yet here they are ready to move on from him.  We're going in circles -- why would they not want him as a part of their future?  No one has really answered that question...

The confusion for me is why they acquired him to be part of their future but then the same GM doesn't want him a year later.  I think you and I are asking the same question and are not seeing answers that make sense to us.  Your hypothetical that he asked for a trade would reconcile those without needing to have something negative change their view on him but until I actually see something there I'm more reluctant to assume a player made a trade demand after a single season somewhere.  Seems more likely they soured on him to me.

[djjob23]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Now that they have drafted over him, clearing the way for younger players make sense but he is a young player who had no competition for minutes last year since the only other young talent on the roster was the perpetually injured Robert Williams who is a full year older than Ayton anyway. 

They never would have acquired him if they didn't want to develop him so one year ago I think we can agree he was a young player they were excited to add to the team and build around.  Not anymore.  Same player, same GM.  His production in Portland was very similar to his production in Phoenix and clearly his salary was known when they dealt for him.  So why the sudden change in direction? 

I think they got a full season look at him and decided they had seen enough to know they didn't believe in him.  Why else would they have traded for him in the first place unless they saw him as someone they thought had a future in Portland?

Same GM, but different player (DA grew as a vocal leader in Portland) and different circumstances. POR traded Lillard last offseason, but they didn’t start last season in rebuild/tank mode (they were in rebuild/compete mode). However, there season was injury riddled (all 10+ppg scorers [minus Scoot at 62] played less than 55 games) and they went into tank mode later in the season. After the disappointment, POR FO adjusted and made definitive decisions on the team’s direction this offseason by drafting Clingan (mirror opposite w/ Ayton skill wise) and trading for Avdija. These moves have made their vets (Grant, Ayton) more available for trade (not dumpable, available), but they want packages that fit their rebuild (expirings, young players, draft assets). It’s not if they want to trade them, it’s if they’re able to trade them for better rebuild pieces. If the offers aren’t beneficial (I think ATL’s offer should be), I can see POR keeping them and continuing their rebuild/compete direction and hoping for fewer injuries next season (either moving Ayton to PF or having Clingan be backup).

Additionally, DA was playing with a rookie PG (Scoot) who struggled most of the season. DA’s production grew along with Scoot’s growth. There’s a 1 to 1 correlation here and it can’t be stressed enough how much we’d see DA improve playing with a PG like Trae who is the best in the league at spamming center production. 

With teams not willing to move their bigs without getting serious value, if I’m choosing between Capela and an available DA (I’m still waiting for somebody to throw out any other available options), I’m taking DA every day for his fit offensively and invest in his defensive tools should our environment make him buy in. Another season with CC risks losing Trae and ATL should be doing everything possible to show Trae they are serious about competing. This is why I was so adamant about ATL getting either Lively or Ware in the past 2 drafts. It’s difficult/expensive to get a quality big with size/motor in today’s market.

Edited August 12 by djjob23

[AHF]

14 minutes ago, djjob23 said:

These moves have made their vets (Grant, Ayton) more available for trade (not dumpable, available), but they want packages that fit their rebuild (expirings, young players, draft assets). It’s not if they want to trade them, it’s if they’re able to trade them for better rebuild pieces. If the offers aren’t beneficial (I think ATL’s offer should be), I can see POR keeping them and continuing their rebuild/compete direction and hoping for fewer injuries next season (either moving Ayton to PF or having Clingan be backup).

 

If Portland expected to be a playoff team last year I think they were delusional.  I'm not seeing much difference from where they start next season and where they started last season. 

To the quote above, I can't see Atlanta offering any young players or draft assets.  I guess we'll see what Portland gets for him.

[djjob23]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

I can't see Atlanta offering any young players or draft assets.  I guess we'll see what Portland gets for him.

Agreed! Not quality young players (I don’t think anybody’s willing to offer that for DA), but I can see quality expiring players and a lottery protected pick being fair value. Hopefully, we can get an update on ATL’s starting C status regardless of if DA is/isn’t expected to be traded by Sep 5. 

[JayBirdHawk]

20 minutes ago, djjob23 said:

POR traded Lillard last offseason, but they didn’t start last season in rebuild/tank mode (they were in rebuild/compete mode)

I don't think so...traded Lillard and Nurkic for Jrue and Ayton, then traded Jrue for Williams and Brogdan. Then Brogdan was in constant trade talks, if they could get a 1st for either they would both been traded.

[Wretch]

49 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Portland probably wasn't of that mindset either when they acquired him, yet here they are ready to move on from him.  We're going in circles -- why would they not want him as a part of their future?  No one has really answered that question... to make way for younger players?  Why would they want to do that?  Ayton is young.  Is Portland not planning on being competitive until 2035 or something?

The one reason I could buy, that I haven't actually seen floated, is that it's Ayton himself that wants out and so Portland is moving him for rebuild assets.  That wouldn't make me feel any better, anyways, because he was just eager to get off a championship level team.  Guys that have situations where they can contend for championships and still aren't happy are red flags to me.  Most guys would kill to be able to compete for a ring.  Ayton seems to have priorities that supersede winning a championship, which is major red flag material.  

This is what I'm implying - at least about Portland - that he's not happy losing on a rebuilding team.  I don't follow the Suns, so I can't say for certain what was going on there.  Just skimming Reddit, it looks like some Suns fans believe Ayton gets more blame for the chemistry issues than he should, others were just really soured on him.  Similar to how the smaller contingent in here are sour on Trae.  Ultimately where we generally love and appreciate Trae, I think Suns fans in general agree that Ayton was a distraction, not worth the max contract they were backed into a corner on, and were ok moving on.

I don't know if he wanted out of Phoenix, but I wouldn't say it's something we can hold against him.  Is Joe Johnson a loser?  He was on a the very same team, contending, and he asked them not to match him so he could play for our lottery squad.  If Portland doesn't want him now, it could be that he's a locker-room cancer with wonky priorities or it could be that he's unhappy with losing.  On facts alone, I think the evidence is stronger for the former, but not necessarily definitively conclusive.

Either way, I can't be convinced that he's not worth a look if the cost is simply moving salary and adding filler.  HOWEVER...I have to add again, that if we didn't have Trae Young I wouldn't consider the deal at all.  I think it works with Trae uniquely.  I don't think it works with any team that is trying to develop players and/or has an alpha that will compete for touches with him and I personally wouldn't risk it.

[djjob23]

52 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I don't think so...traded Lillard and Nurkic for Jrue and Ayton, then traded Jrue for Williams and Brogdan. Then Brogdan was in constant trade talks, if they could get a 1st for either they would both been traded.

Undrerstood! Maybe compete wasn’t the right word. Last season their rebuild was soft with the intention to flip quality players (increasing vet values) for players/assets that fit their rebuild better. Unfortunately, injuries throughout the season put a major hit on this plan. I think the POR FO is still in soft rebuild, but drafting Clingan and trading for Avdija helped progress the rebuild and make their direction decisions more clear. 

Also, this soft rebuild all started because Lillard lost faith in the organization. The FO didn’t want the rebuild, but was forced that direction. Man… could ATL be in the same boat next offseason if we have another mid season?

Edited August 12 by djjob23

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, Wretch said:

 

I don't know if he wanted out of Phoenix, but I wouldn't say it's something we can hold against him.  Is Joe Johnson a loser?  He was on a the very same team, contending, and he asked them not to match him so he could play for our lottery squad.  If Portland doesn't want him now, it could be that he's a locker-room cancer with wonky priorities or it could be that he's unhappy with losing.  On facts alone, I think the evidence is stronger for the former, but not necessarily definitively conclusive.

The Suns didn't want to pay Joe.  They sure didn't give him away for filler like Phoenix did with Ayton.  On the motives for Portland, I suppose it could be a mixed motive as well with him being unhappy in part because he was not on a winning team and that making him someone they wanted to ditch knowing they were in rebuilding mode for a while.  It then just asks a bigger question of where he would be happy given that he wasn't on a contender and then wasn't on a rebuilding team.  We are clearly between those to points on the spectrum so I suppose we have that going for us, lol.

[Gray Mule]

When an NBA team has a very expensive player, using up a ton of $$$ payroll and that team is not winning, why would they want to hold on to that player?  

I remember, many, many years ago when Ralph Kiner was a great baseball pro player.  He had a great season and ask for a raise.  The team GM told him, "We ended up in last place with you on the team.  We could have ended up in last place without you. Request denied."

Portland is a losing team.  They can be a losing team without him.

 

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

When an NBA team has a very expensive player, using up a ton of $$$ payroll and that team is not winning, why would they want to hold on to that player?  

I remember, many, many years ago when Ralph Kiner was a great baseball pro player.  He had a great season and ask for a raise.  The team GM told him, "We ended up in last place with you on the team.  We could have ended up in last place without you. Request denied."

Portland is a losing team.  They can be a losing team without him.

 

Lots of losing NBA teams are very happy to keep expensive players.  Looking just at what is happening right now among the league's worst teams:

The 31 win Utah Jazz just resigned Lauri to what is effectively a max contract.  (He is older than Ayton).  

The 27 win Memphis Grizzlies will be happily paying $25-$37M each next year to Ja Morant, Desmond Bane, and JJJ.  (They are all older than Ayton).

The 15 win Pistons just signed 32 year old Tobias Harris for more than $25M a year so they could continue to lose with a highly comped player and just signed up to pay Cade Cunningham ~$40M per year despite averaging fewer than 20 wins in his seasons with the team.

Heck, Portland themselves kept Damian Lillard after a 27 win season when he was in his 30's and making over $40M in a year.  They wanted to continue keeping him after a 33 win season but he was the one who "broke up" with them at that point.

Why get rid of a good 26 year old player that you traded for just 1 year earlier is the better question in my mind.

[Final_quest]

The deal Portland made, if we can isolate Nurkic for Ayton, was not them making a big bet on him.  They got to offload Nurkic who was signed for several more years. 

They gave up very little for Ayton.  So, it’s not like us with the Murray trade.  They can give Ayton away with not much invested and move forward with younger and cheaper guys.

[AHF]

13 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

The deal Portland made, if we can isolate Nurkic for Ayton, was not them making a big bet on him.  They got to offload Nurkic who was signed for several more years. 

They gave up very little for Ayton.  So, it’s not like us with the Murray trade.  They can give Ayton away with not much invested and move forward with younger and cheaper guys.

I agree on what they had to give up to get him.  It was just about as close to nothing as you can get.  The Suns dumped Ayton to get rid of him.  They weren't trading for value. 

[AHF]

3 hours ago, djjob23 said:

Agreed! Not quality young players (I don’t think anybody’s willing to offer that for DA), but I can see quality expiring players and a lottery protected pick being fair value. Hopefully, we can get an update on ATL’s starting C status regardless of if DA is/isn’t expected to be traded by Sep 5. 

I would be shocked if we gave away a first round pick that was only lottery protected in a deal for Ayton.  You should expect me to be critical of Fields if that happens.

[Final_quest]

5 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

Portland probably wasn't of that mindset either when they acquired him, yet here they are ready to move on from him.  We're going in circles -- why would they not want him as a part of their future?  No one has really answered that question... to make way for younger players?  Why would they want to do that?  Ayton is young.  Is Portland not planning on being competitive until 2035 or something?

They gave up a mid player for him by NBA standards.  Ayton’s not good enough to keep paying a high price for and pencil in as your starting center for the next 5-10 years.  

Similar downsides if we trade for him to be honest.  If he plays well, he won’t want a pay cut.  

[bird_dirt]

On 8/10/2024 at 7:01 PM, djjob23 said:

Hope these articles help answer the question on DA’s growth/personality after leaving Phoenix and getting a fresh start in Portland! Just goes to show that environment can make all the difference. I see a lot of similarities between DA and Zach Randolph.

https://www.nba.com/blazers/news/season-in-review-deandre-ayton
”However, Ayton’s positive influence in the locker room might have been one of his most important contributions during his first season in Portland. Ayton wanted to prove he had leadership qualities, something he didn’t get to display much on more the more veteran teams he played for in Phoenix, and one needed to only hear him deflect praise from himself and on to his teammates, something he did regularly this season, to understand his benefit in the Trail Blazers’ locker room.”

https://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/2024/05/deandre-ayton-a-key-to-rip-citys-future-trail-blazers-season-review-look-ahead.html
“Over the final two months, Ayton demonstrated much-needed leadership to go along with his aggressive play on offense.”
”Ayton said that by late last season, he had become comfortable with coaches, the organization, and teammates. That should allow him to be a force at the start of next season.”

https://www.blazersedge.com/2024/4/16/24132115/trail-blazers-deandre-ayton-had-amazing-first-season-in-portland
“My first season here went amazing,” Ayton said via Danny Marang. “I got to truly see who I am as a player. I got a new start a lot of obstacles. I learned a lot about who I am - I learned I’m a leader, and through trials and tribulations I pushed through. How to be a true vet and example to how to approach the game. To keep my professionalism to a point that they can learn from it.”

https://www.oregonlive.com/blazers/2024/04/trail-blazers-deandre-ayton-and-scoot-henderson-building-chemistry-thats-leading-to-victories.html
The Blazers have been playing without Jerami Grant, Anfernee Simons, Shaedon Sharpe, Matisse Thybulle and Malcolm Brogdon. That has left Ayton as the only player in the rotation with extensive NBA experience. It’s also made him the team’s leader, a role he has embraced. Blazers coach Chauncey Billups said he has been impressed by how Ayton has taken upon himself to do the little things that have helped Henderson and others flourish. “DA doesn’t get the credit for being as smart as he is on the floor,” Billups told reporters. “He’s understanding the angle in which he has to set the screens for Scoot as teams try to go under him. I say it all the time with that pick-and-roll, it’s the point guard and the big guy, it’s a two-way relationship. It takes some time to get used to. You can see them starting to develop some chemistry in the coverages that teams play against us and against Scoot, which obviously is totally different than with (Simons). So, it takes some concentration to be honest with you, but I just love to see that chemistry developing between those two guys.” Furthermore, Ayton has taken it upon himself to be the focal point and take the brunt of the pressure while also being encouraging to the younger players. “I always thought and think still that the best players should always deflect the attention because you naturally will get most of it,” Billups said. “And we all know as basketball players we can never do this thing alone. We know what it takes to go out there and play.”

IT HAS BEGUN 

On 8/8/2024 at 2:02 PM, bird_dirt said:

This sounds like they need a half season to pump out some PR driven puff pieces on Ayton, with plenty of quotes from coaches talking about how get he’s been buying into their system, a true professional, etc. 

They aren’t going to be able to trade him as is now, but they don’t want to go through another full season with him. They need to limit his exposure to the press and pump up his stock.