DeJounte Murray traded to the Pelicans

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, FL_BRYANT said:

I would agree if the Mavs gave up Kyrie. The Hawks would have been a damn good team if they added Gafford and Washington while keeping all their pieces. That is why I believe all the Hawks had to do was fix the front court an they could have been a tough out.

The Mavs made the WCF after the KP to WAS trade. 

24 minutes ago, Watchman said:

He's a great defender?  So that explains why he rode the bench in the playoffs?

Different personnel 

[Watchman]

2 hours ago, FL_BRYANT said:

I feel you but I've been coming back for 40 years. I hate to think about what that says about me.

You are "a glutton for punishment" like many of your fellow long time Hawks fans.

[ABH]

Once again will get trash..disaster front office

[ABH]

Once Trae goes out..no scoring 

Better be more coming !!!!!!

But I don't see it

[AHF]

8 hours ago, NBASupes said:

We just had the #1 pick and we won like 36 games.

This is the equivalent of saying lottery tickets are good investments.  The % is too low to be relied on.  Betting the house on a 2% chance or something is foolish.  When you reasonably project outcomes you should not include this being a top 4 pick in the lottery but I won’t argue that at least having the potential for an outlier outcome is good.

On a positive note, the Lakers pick is much, much more valuable than the 2027 one.  There are very real scenarios where the LA pick turns into a #10 pick or something.  The “worst of” protection that we gave up for who knows what reason on 2027 diminishes its value considerably.  Should have been one or the other period.

[aali34]

4 hours ago, Watchman said:

JC scored and rebounded better than JJ on a per minute basis.  JJ is a better passer and ball handler. I see no reason to think JJ will exceed the JC scoring, and certainly the rebounding production of the 21+/10+ season.

JCs 20pt season was when he was the clear second on the team and when there was no Clint to prioritize in pnr.

If JJ is the defacto second option, I would be shocked if he didn't average around 20/9/5

[sturt]

Okay, I just have to throw this in before I hit the road today...

Throwing shade on a 21 yr-old who posted a +.100 WS/48 in his second season just because the coach, as coaches are prone to do, shortened his rotation for the playoffs... I think... is a little silly. The kid's best days are in front of him. This was my lecture (for the 17th time, but who's counting) to FQ earlier... you don't judge young players as-if they've plateaued so soon. The kid is already proven to be an asset. His first to second year progression is indicative of something still better in his new uniform. Once you get past 25 it's unusual to see very much improvement in a player, though there are examples of even that (take a bow Steve Nash). But before 25, until you see a tangible plateau for something more than 82 games, the smart money on a player who was a lottery pick is that he's only going to get better.

[aali34]

9 hours ago, Watchman said:

 

And you all complained about Collins.  Nance is much further down the ladder talent-wise.  If you argue that Nance will be a free agent soon, so what?  It is meaningless with our ownership and  management.

 

If JC was being paid 11mil instead of 26mil he'd still be here

[Gray Mule]

So far, reading these posts, I have found out several things.

When the Hawks traded for Murray, they gave up several golden draft picks.  When they traded him away, they receive two worthless 1st round picks.

Players the Hawks received in the trade include Nance, an old man, undersized center to be used as a throw-in in another trade and D. Daniels, who is so bad that he couldn't get on the floor in the playoffs and can't shoot.

Because of this trade, expect Trae to demand, at once, that he be traded for a bag full of used basketballs and a box of crackerjacks!

Also, just to make nice, the Hawks completely missed in the draft, getting a starter for the Skyhawks next summer.

Any win by the Atlanta Hawks next season should be considered an upset.  

Did I miss anything??

 

[deester11]

22 minutes ago, Gray Mule said:

So far, reading these posts, I have found out several things.

When the Hawks traded for Murray, they gave up several golden draft picks.  When they traded him away, they receive two worthless 1st round picks.

Players the Hawks received in the trade include Nance, an old man, undersized center to be used as a throw-in in another trade and D. Daniels, who is so bad that he couldn't get on the floor in the playoffs and can't shoot.

Because of this trade, expect Trae to demand, at once, that he be traded for a bag full of used basketballs and a box of crackerjacks!

Also, just to make nice, the Hawks completely missed in the draft, getting a starter for the Skyhawks next summer.

Any win by the Atlanta Hawks next season should be considered an upset.  

Did I miss anything??

 

Great analogy and review of events. Somewhere in between sir. 

[thecampster]

1 hour ago, aali34 said:

If JC was being paid 11mil instead of 26mil he'd still be here

Misspelling aside, smartest post of the week. What a player makes is part of his value.

 

Every time I see people talking trades, value, I see them omit the players current salary.  This is as much if not more important than the box score, "potential" or what market you play in.

Cap basics courtesy of: https://www.sportsbusinessclassroom.com/nba-2023-24-apron-tracker/#:~:text=The first apron is triggered,-Level Exception (TMLE).

"One of the goals of the NBA’s latest Collective Bargaining Agreement is to curb spending. The higher a team’s payroll, the fewer tools they have.

The NBA has a soft cap, which allows teams to spend without limit, provided they have the tools (more formally, “exceptions”) to do so. But certain exceptions will trigger hard spending limits at the first ($172.3 million) or second ($182.8 million) aprons. Once a team chooses to have a hard cap, it cannot, under any circumstance, climb above it. Similarly, if a team is above an apron, it cannot use an exception that would trigger that spending limit.

The first apron is triggered by the use of the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level Exception (NTME), Bi-Annual Exception (BAE) or from acquiring a player via sign-and-trade (S&T). The second apron is triggered by using the Taxpayer Mid-Level Exception (TMLE). Additionally, teams above the apron cannot use the Expanded Traded Player Exception (ETPE) that allows for salary matching above 110 percent (through the 2023-24 regular season, then reduces to no more than 100 percent). Future seasons will have additional triggers."

Level		2024-25
Salary Cap		$141,000,000
Luxury Tax		$171,315,000
First Apron		$178,655,000
Second Apron		$189,485,000
Minimum Team Salary		$126,900,000
Tax Bracket Size		$5,183,023

 

The current salary cap is $141 million. Below is our current salary situation with actively rostered players. $153,288,268 (ie. we are capped).

and below are our current holds which count against the cap. With 13 rostered players, you can first, count Risacher's salary (his cap hit is higher until signed) and 1 other player (probably Vit as we need emergency ball handling and Vit has handles like a lower tiered point guard).  Zacch at $10.5 million, Vit at 2 million brings our cap situation up to $165,788,268.  We are 5.5 million below the tax given we resign Vit and given Zacch's salary. We're saying 8 million below the apron because until signed, Zacch counts for 2.1 million more and we have holds, but we are effectively $13 million below the 1st apron and $23.5 million below the 2nd apron.

The DJM trade is as much about getting back 3 players for 1. Prior to the trade, we were effectively $6 million worse on the cap and needed 4 additional players.  DJM's salary was $25 million but with only him we required 2 more vet minimum salaries at an average cost of a 5 year vet is $2.6 million. So DJM + 2 vets real cost to the cap was $30.2 million.  The 3 players we acquired, 19.2 million.  The trade saves an effective $11 million. Without the trade, we would be right at or above that 1st apron and would lose all flexibility come the trade deadline.

Why not the other holds?  To maintain flexibility, Bey has to be gone. His current cap hold handicaps us.  His future salary would push us close to the second apron.  Unless something else breaks, you can assume Bey will not be back.

 

[Group starts to mumble and 1 brave soul speaks up] "Uhm, Mr. Camp sir, is this why you said trading down for more picks was a better idea?"

why yes little squawker...yes it is.  Knowing the cap situation, I was making a value choice. Give up good players on our roster for lower, multiple known commodities or trade down from the glory of #1 in a bad class for 2 picks that would add up to effectively the same salary to fill in those roster slots.  Making bad choices is how we ended up where we were.

Everything in life is about choices, benefits and consequences.  The consequence of keeping an $11 million dollar rookie and a $43 million undersized point guard is someone else will have to go.  But the consequence of trading the $43 million undersized point guard is the team scoring 15 less points per game (proven). So you choose to send out the other and hope you can surround him with good enough defensive players to hide him a bit.  Also, that $43 million undersized point guard made huge strides last year in his team defensive abilities, filling passing lanes, bouncing into dig downs, showing double, spending energy. You reward the effort on the defensive end he showed last year and you punish the lack of defensive effort showed by the other one. DJM took a step back defensively once he came here. He was still better defensively than Trae but he was an opportunist who took plays off and disrupted the offense by playing a lot of ISO, calling for the ball late in games. Some games it worked, other games not.  DJM was the obvious choice to go and that includes because of the ability to move him. 

$43 million is much harder to move than $25 million regardless of the player attached to it.  DJM was the only one we could push that salary out on. $65 million for 2 point guards was way too much (46%) of the cap to spend.  DJM proved he couldn't defend the 2 as well as the one. He proved to be a point guard, not a shooting guard. There could be no roster balance with 46% of your cap tied up on 2 starting point guards, 2/15ths of your roster.  One had to go.

 

This isn't a video game. The cap and proper spending of that cap matters.

Edited June 29 by thecampster

[NBASupes]

33 minutes ago, thecampster said:

Misspelling aside, smartest post of the week. What a player makes is part of his value.

 

Every time I see people talking trades, value, I see them omit the players current salary.  This is as much if not more important than the box score, "potential" or what market you play in.

Cap basics courtesy of: https://www.sportsbusinessclassroom.com/nba-2023-24-apron-tracker/#:~:text=The first apron is triggered,-Level Exception (TMLE).

"One of the goals of the NBA’s latest Collective Bargaining Agreement is to curb spending. The higher a team’s payroll, the fewer tools they have.

The NBA has a soft cap, which allows teams to spend without limit, provided they have the tools (more formally, “exceptions”) to do so. But certain exceptions will trigger hard spending limits at the first ($172.3 million) or second ($182.8 million) aprons. Once a team chooses to have a hard cap, it cannot, under any circumstance, climb above it. Similarly, if a team is above an apron, it cannot use an exception that would trigger that spending limit.

The first apron is triggered by the use of the Non-Taxpayer Mid-Level Exception (NTME), Bi-Annual Exception (BAE) or from acquiring a player via sign-and-trade (S&T). The second apron is triggered by using the Taxpayer Mid-Level Exception (TMLE). Additionally, teams above the apron cannot use the Expanded Traded Player Exception (ETPE) that allows for salary matching above 110 percent (through the 2023-24 regular season, then reduces to no more than 100 percent). Future seasons will have additional triggers."

Level		2024-25
Salary Cap		$141,000,000
Luxury Tax		$171,315,000
First Apron		$178,655,000
Second Apron		$189,485,000
Minimum Team Salary		$126,900,000
Tax Bracket Size		$5,183,023

 

The current salary cap is $141 million. Below is our current salary situation with actively rostered players. $153,288,268 (ie. we are capped).

and below are our current holds which count against the cap. With 13 rostered players, you can first, count Risacher's salary (his cap hit is higher until signed) and 1 other player (probably Vit as we need emergency ball handling and Vit has handles like a lower tiered point guard).  Zacch at $10.5 million, Vit at 2 million brings our cap situation up to $165,788,268.  We are 5.5 million below the tax given we resign Vit and given Zacch's salary. We're saying 8 million below the apron because until signed, Zacch counts for 2.1 million more and we have holds, but we are effectively $13 million below the 1st apron and $23.5 million below the 2nd apron.

The DJM trade is as much about getting back 3 players for 1. Prior to the trade, we were effectively $6 million worse on the cap and needed 4 additional players.  DJM's salary was $25 million but with only him we required 2 more vet minimum salaries at an average cost of a 5 year vet is $2.6 million. So DJM + 2 vets real cost to the cap was $30.2 million.  The 3 players we acquired, 19.2 million.  The trade saves an effective $11 million. Without the trade, we would be right at or above that 1st apron and would lose all flexibility come the trade deadline.

Why not the other holds?  To maintain flexibility, Bey has to be gone. His current cap hold handicaps us.  His future salary would push us close to the second apron.  Unless something else breaks, you can assume Bey will not be back.

 

[Group starts to mumble and 1 brave soul speaks up] "Uhm, Mr. Camp sir, is this why you said trading down for more picks was a better idea?"

why yes little squawker...yes it is.  Knowing the cap situation, I was making a value choice. Give up good players on our roster for lower, multiple known commodities or trade down from the glory of #1 in a bad class for 2 picks that would add up to effectively the same salary to fill in those roster slots.  Making bad choices is how we ended up where we were.

Everything in life is about choices, benefits and consequences.  The consequence of keeping an $11 million dollar rookie and a $43 million undersized point guard is someone else will have to go.  But the consequence of trading the $43 million undersized point guard is the team scoring 15 less points per game (proven). So you choose to send out the other and hope you can surround him with good enough defensive players to hide him a bit.  Also, that $43 million undersized point guard made huge strides last year in his team defensive abilities, filling passing lanes, bouncing into dig downs, showing double, spending energy. You reward the effort on the defensive end he showed last year and you punish the lack of defensive effort showed by the other one. DJM took a step back defensively once he came here. He was still better defensively than Trae but he was an opportunist who took plays off and disrupted the offense by playing a lot of ISO, calling for the ball late in games. Some games it worked, other games not.  DJM was the obvious choice to go and that includes because of the ability to move him. 

$43 million is much harder to move than $25 million regardless of the player attached to it.  DJM was the only one we could push that salary out on. $65 million for 2 point guards was way too much (46%) of the cap to spend.  DJM proved he couldn't defend the 2 as well as the one. He proved to be a point guard, not a shooting guard. There could be no roster balance with 46% of your cap tied up on 2 starting point guards, 2/15ths of your roster.  One had to go.

 

This isn't a video game. The cap and proper spending of that cap matters.

Bey QC is actually good and we can sign him to under the QC as well. 

[bleachkit]

9 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Bey QC is actually good and we can sign him to under the QC as well. 

Coming off torn ACL. That's a major injury and usually a 9 to 12 month recovery. 

[Packfill]

2 hours ago, sturt said:

Okay, I just have to throw this in before I hit the road today...

Throwing shade on a 21 yr-old who posted a +.100 WS/48 in his second season just because the coach, as coaches are prone to do, shortened his rotation for the playoffs... I think... is a little silly. The kid's best days are in front of him. This was my lecture (for the 17th time, but who's counting) to FQ earlier... you don't judge young players as-if they've plateaued so soon. The kid is already proven to be an asset. His first to second year progression is indicative of something still better in his new uniform. Once you get past 25 it's unusual to see very much improvement in a player, though there are examples of even that (take a bow Steve Nash). But before 25, until you see a tangible plateau for something more than 82 games, the smart money on a player who was a lottery pick is that he's only going to get better.

I like Daniels but his progression from his rookie year to his sophmore year was not great, and that is why NO was willing to let him go, knowing he was unlikely to jump ahead of Jones, Murphy or Hawkins in the rotation.

I hope Daniels shooting turns the corner but I am prepared to accept that he may never develop as a shooter and thus peaks as a nice defensive piece off the bench.   Maybe a slightly taller version of Delon Wright with a worse jump shot.

[thecampster]

Individually its good. As a fit for the apron, no. Had we not done the DJM deal, we"d have been above the apron.   Sorry but Daniels, Nance are the replacements for Bey.

[thecampster]

2 minutes ago, Packfill said:

I like Daniels but his progression from his rookie year to his sophmore year was not great, and that is why NO was willing to let him go, knowing he was unlikely to jump ahead of Jones, Murphy or Hawkins in the rotation.

I hope Daniels shooting turns the corner but I am prepared to accept that he may never develop as a shooter and thus peaks as a nice defensive piece off the bench.   Maybe a slightly taller version of Delon Wright with a worse jump shot.

I'm willing to let the coaching staff, Bogi, Matthews and Korver take a stab at improving him before I pass judgment. All I know is he just became the best on ball defender we have on a team that is fine offensively.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

42 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Bey QC is actually good and we can sign him to under the QC as well. 

 

33 minutes ago, bleachkit said:

Coming off torn ACL. That's a major injury and usually a 9 to 12 month recovery. 

His QO is $6.4 million. Might be harsh, but is it worth tying up that money to a rehabbing player. He's most likely out for the year.

 

[JeffS17]

6 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

His QO is $6.4 million. Might be harsh, but is it worth tying up that money to a rehabbing player. He's most likely put for the year.

 

Might be why we cut AJ, Id personally rather have Bey going forward than him.  Curious if we offer Bey a longer term extension that is very team friendly— probably what Id like to see most for him.

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, JeffS17 said:

Might be why we cut AJ, Id personally rather have Bey going forward than him.  Curious if we offer Bey a longer term extension that is very team friendly— probably what Id like to see most for him.

What amount constitutes team friendly to you?

1+1, with a team option?

2+1, with a team option?