Welcome to Atlanta, Dyson Daniels

[AHF]

5 hours ago, SalvorMallow said:

Patty Mills has 8 points in 6 minutes. Where was this play when he was a Hawk??? Patty hits ANOTHER three! 11 pts in 8 mins

Lots of role players put up big numbers in International play because their teams just don’t have many quality options.  Guys like Shane Heal can barely see the floor in the NBA but drop 20 points in international games like nothing because they are featured players on their teams.  Shouldn’t be surprising to see Patty Mills drop 24.  Again, it isn’t very predictive of NBA performance.

For Daniels, I didn’t watch the game but the highlights look great.  He is going to be a big part of the rotation.  Expecting high 20 something minutes per game for both him and Bogi.  I don’t think they’ll leave many SG minutes for anyone else and will see some time at the 1 and the 3 depending on the lineup and who else is available.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

 

[NBASupes]

Daniels is gonna be at the 3. Risacher at the 2. JJ at the 4. Still waiting to see if OO can beat out Capela. I'll believe it when I see it. I seen enough of Risacher and Daniels to know they need to start. 

[terrell]

13 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Daniels is gonna be at the 3. Risacher at the 2. JJ at the 4. Still waiting to see if OO can beat out Capela. I'll believe it when I see it. I seen enough of Risacher and Daniels to know they need to start. 

That'll work..

I like Risacher as a 2...

And if OO cant beat out Capela by now, he needs to be traded....

[kg01]

46 minutes ago, terrell said:

That'll work..

I like Risacher as a 2...

And if OO cant beat out Capela by now, he needs to be traded....

I dont see OO as a starter.  If he was that, he would be it by now.  Jmho

But, like Hunter, I don't want to just toss him for scraps.  If there's an upgrade to be had, he certainly shouldn't be the reason we walk away from the deal. 

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, kg01 said:

I dont see OO as a starter.  If he was that, he would be it by now.  Jmho

You’re just being Gradey aren’t you? 

[kg01]

1 hour ago, Spud2nique said:

You’re just being Gradey aren’t you? 

IIWII, mayne.

We desperately needed him to step into the starting role the past 2-3 years.  It's not not happenin', sadly.

[Gray Mule]

Something I have learned this summer from reading all the posts on The Squawk.

1- Whatever happens in Summer League doesn't matter because anyone can be a Summer League star.

2- Whatever happens in international basketball doesn't matter because you can do anything there.

I became excited by what I observed this summer.  "Get over it.  This is not the real NBA; therefore, it doesn't count."  I watched as future Hawks players did some amazing stuff.  Playing great defense and hitting their shots.  Just what Atlanta is looking for as they set up next season's team.  

Ah, well.  Pre-season is coming soon.  Then we will see what we have.  Except, as we all know, pre-season doesn't count.

[AHF]

6 hours ago, Gray Mule said:

Something I have learned this summer from reading all the posts on The Squawk.

1- Whatever happens in Summer League doesn't matter because anyone can be a Summer League star.

2- Whatever happens in international basketball doesn't matter because you can do anything there.

I became excited by what I observed this summer.  "Get over it.  This is not the real NBA; therefore, it doesn't count."  I watched as future Hawks players did some amazing stuff.  Playing great defense and hitting their shots.  Just what Atlanta is looking for as they set up next season's team.  

Ah, well.  Pre-season is coming soon.  Then we will see what we have.  Except, as we all know, pre-season doesn't count.

I think this is not far from the truth.  You can see some things in exhibition play but it is really tough to directly translate.  I've given a list of all the All-Summer-League and Summer League MVPs who weren't just not significant when the season started but who were never even rotational NBA players as well as a list of future stars who struggled in that format.  It isn't simply because anyone can be a summer league star but the low level of talent, the thrown together rosters, the small sample size of games, the lack of organization, the incentives for players trying to make teams, etc. that makes it really hard to reliably translate SL play to NBA play.

Likewise, international ball suffers from many of the same issues.  (With better talent and some differences in rules thrown in.) 

For example, looking at the numbers below you might think these two players would be fairly similar in terms of production and impact in the NBA next year:

Player A:

12.0 PPG, 10.0 RPG, 3.0 APG, 2.5 SPG, 1.0 BPG

Player B*:

9.6 PPG, 2.6 RPG, 2.6 APG, 3.0 SPG, 0.0 BPG

 

FWIW, Player A is Bruno's stats from the pre-Olympic exhibition games for Angola and Player B are the stats for Daniels in the pre-Olympic exhibition games for Australia.  Obviously, my expectations are MUCH higher for Daniels for next year.  (I am sadly getting resigned to the probability that we end up simply cutting Bruno because we can't find anyone to take Zeller after we for whatever reason didn't broaden the DJM to avoid having to take him.)

 

During the dead summer period, I want to see as much of these guys as I can even in these types of games but I don't just assume that Patty Mills has found it and will be a significant NBA player just because he has beasted some for Australia.  And most of my projections for our players is going to be based on what they did in the NBA or last year in their pro league rather than what they did in SL or international play.

 

* (Could not find complete box score information for all exhibition games but this is the almost all of them)

 

 

[REHawksFan]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I think this is not far from the truth.  You can see some things in exhibition play but it is really tough to directly translate.  I've given a list of all the All-Summer-League and Summer League MVPs who weren't just not significant when the season started but who were never even rotational NBA players as well as a list of future stars who struggled in that format.  It isn't simply because anyone can be a summer league star but the low level of talent, the thrown together rosters, the small sample size of games, the lack of organization, the incentives for players trying to make teams, etc. that makes it really hard to reliably translate SL play to NBA play.

Likewise, international ball suffers from many of the same issues.  (With better talent and some differences in rules thrown in.) 

For example, looking at the numbers below you might think these two players would be fairly similar in terms of production and impact in the NBA next year:

Player A:

12.0 PPG, 10.0 RPG, 3.0 APG, 2.5 SPG, 1.0 BPG

Player B*:

9.6 PPG, 2.6 RPG, 2.6 APG, 3.0 SPG, 0.0 BPG

 

FWIW, Player A is Bruno's stats from the pre-Olympic exhibition games for Angola and Player B are the stats for Daniels in the pre-Olympic exhibition games for Australia.  Obviously, my expectations are MUCH higher for Daniels for next year.  (I am sadly getting resigned to the probability that we end up simply cutting Bruno because we can't find anyone to take Zeller after we for whatever reason didn't broaden the DJM to avoid having to take him.)

 

During the dead summer period, I want to see as much of these guys as I can even in these types of games but I don't just assume that Patty Mills has found it and will be a significant NBA player just because he has beasted some for Australia.  And most of my projections for our players is going to be based on what they did in the NBA or last year in their pro league rather than what they did in SL or international play.

 

* (Could not find complete box score information for all exhibition games but this is the almost all of them)

 

 

I agree you can't take much from SL or international games IF all you are doing is checking box scores. 

But there's no way you can watch DD hound Team USA and create havoc defensively and think that won't translate. 

Also seeing him hit open jumpers or finish at the rim shows what he is capable of regardless of competition. 

Watching HOW players play translates, watching stats doesn't. IMO

[RedDawg#8]

Our wings are interchangeable in Quin’s scheme but Daniels is likely guarding 1’s and 2’s defensively and playing the 3 on offense. (I know he can also defend 3’s and 4’s but his presence on this team will be to be the head of the snake defensively at the POA)

Also, Daniels has a chance to be a creator on offense if we do not bring in another PG. I wouldn’t lock him in strictly at the 3.

ZR is interchangeable but his handle is not as good as Daniels. (Didn’t say it was bad, he has a great dribble, but he has a tendency to dribble high. Daniels is more natural today) I would imagine that this makes more sense at the 3 were he wont be needed to initiate as much for others. 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, REHawksFan said:

I agree you can't take much from SL or international games IF all you are doing is checking box scores. 

But there's no way you can watch DD hound Team USA and create havoc defensively and think that won't translate. 

Also seeing him hit open jumpers or finish at the rim shows what he is capable of regardless of competition. 

Watching HOW players play translates, watching stats doesn't. IMO

What are you getting that you can't get from his tape from last year?  I think we have much better tape of him hounding players and creating havoc defensively from the entire regular season.  Even if international games are equally useful, the sample size is so small compared to regular season games.  

I guess if you don't expect Dyson to be an impact defender then this is an eye-opening experience to see him or if you question whether he can hit open jumpers or at 6-8 can finish at the rim then sure.  I am assuming all those things based on his play from last season.

[REHawksFan]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

What are you getting that you can't get from his tape from last year?  I think we have much better tape of him hounding players and creating havoc defensively from the entire regular season.  Even if international games are equally useful, the sample size is so small compared to regular season games.  

I guess if you don't expect Dyson to be an impact defender then this is an eye-opening experience to see him or if you question whether he can hit open jumpers or at 6-8 can finish at the rim then sure.  I am assuming all those things based on his play from last season.

I guess I'm missing something.  You responded to @Gray Mule's sarcastic post about being told not to be excited to see Hawks players playing amazing defense and hitting shots by saying it's international play so it doesn't translate. I'm saying that if you watch the games and don't just work off the stat sheet, you will see plenty of things that do translate because you can see what a player is capable of doing.  That doesn't mean that everything every player does will translate, but you can absolutely see things that will. 

Now you are saying that everything DD did that has people excited he also did in the NBA.  So you are proving my point that what DD has shown in International play does, in fact, translate.   

I guess a better question is what has he done in international competition that you don't think will translate in the NBA?  

 

[AHF]

2 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

I guess I'm missing something.  You responded to @Gray Mule's sarcastic post about being told not to be excited to see Hawks players playing amazing defense and hitting shots by saying it's international play so it doesn't translate. I'm saying that if you watch the games and don't just work off the stat sheet, you will see plenty of things that do translate because you can see what a player is capable of doing.  That doesn't mean that everything every player does will translate, but you can absolutely see things that will. 

Now you are saying that everything DD did that has people excited he also did in the NBA.  So you are proving my point that what DD has shown in International play does, in fact, translate.   

I guess a better question is what has he done in international competition that you don't think will translate in the NBA?  

 

I didn't say that because he did something in summer league you must know he can't do it in the NBA.  That is antithetical to the whole post I was making which is you don't get a good enough sample size of performance against NBA comparable situations to get good indicators for what production a player will deliver the next season.

The factors I cited as reasons to not see "directly translate" from international to NBA were:

• level of talent (granting it is better than the SL but China and Puerto Rico for example are nothing impressive and that is half the games we are talking about)
• the thrown together rosters (i.e., players don't have extensive experience playing together in many cases)
• the small sample size of games
• the lack of organization (better than SL but you are limited in what you can do given the time constraints with the players)
• and the difference in rules in international play

I then specifically said statistics don't translate very well which you seem to have agreed with.

Then I said "most of my projections for our players is going to be based on what they did in the NBA or last year in their pro league rather than what they did in SL or international play."  

I don't take 5 games of play in international play as a good indicator of what he will do in the NBA.  Period.  Everything you cited as things to take from international play are things we already knew from the NBA.

1 - Defense.  We knew about his defense.  That was the big selling point of the trade.

2 - We already knew about him hitting open jumpers.  I did a whole post already about how he hits open jumpers reasonably well and the bigger question is about showing success on other types of jump shots where his 3pt numbers are woeful.

3 - We already know he finishes at a .635% clip near the basket from two years of NBA play.  So I'm not seeing a lot of new insights.

To me the big questions are about how much he can level up on last year and I'm not going to get answers to that in another 5 or so games of Olympic play against wildly varying levels of opposing talent.

 

My point is that lots of things that people do in international play don't translate so if you see someone doing something that they didn't do in a more applicable environment over a much larger sample size you should be suspicious.  If you see someone doing something they've already done over 120 NBA games then of course I'm not going to push back on thinking that this should be something they keep doing.  But that is more based on the 120 NBA games than it is the international play.  International play is like using a week or two of NBA games to draw conclusions on players.  Not very useful by itself but certainly something fun to follow.

[REHawksFan]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

I didn't say that because he did something in summer league you must know he can't do it in the NBA.  That is antithetical to the whole post I was making which is you don't get a good enough sample size of performance against NBA comparable situations to get good indicators for what production a player will deliver the next season.

The factors I cited as reasons to not see "directly translate" from international to NBA were:

• level of talent (granting it is better than the SL but China and Puerto Rico for example are nothing impressive and that is half the games we are talking about)
• the thrown together rosters (i.e., players don't have extensive experience playing together in many cases)
• the small sample size of games
• the lack of organization (better than SL but you are limited in what you can do given the time constraints with the players)
• and the difference in rules in international play

I then specifically said statistics don't translate very well which you seem to have agreed with.

Then I said "most of my projections for our players is going to be based on what they did in the NBA or last year in their pro league rather than what they did in SL or international play."  

I don't take 5 games of play in international play as a good indicator of what he will do in the NBA.  Period.  Everything you cited as things to take from international play are things we already knew from the NBA.

1 - Defense.  We knew about his defense.  That was the big selling point of the trade.

2 - We already knew about him hitting open jumpers.  I did a whole post already about how he hits open jumpers reasonably well and the bigger question is about showing success on other types of jump shots where his 3pt numbers are woeful.

3 - We already know he finishes at a .635% clip near the basket from two years of NBA play.  So I'm not seeing a lot of new insights.

To me the big questions are about how much he can level up on last year and I'm not going to get answers to that in another 5 or so games of Olympic play against wildly varying levels of opposing talent.

 

My point is that lots of things that people do in international play don't translate so if you see someone doing something that they didn't do in a more applicable environment over a much larger sample size you should be suspicious.  If you see someone doing something they've already done over 120 NBA games then of course I'm not going to push back on thinking that this should be something they keep doing.  But that is more based on the 120 NBA games than it is the international play.  International play is like using a week or two of NBA games to draw conclusions on players.  Not very useful by itself but certainly something fun to follow.

Fair enough.  

I suppose I was thrown off because your response saying international and SL performance doesn't translate was to this post: 

12 hours ago, Gray Mule said:

I became excited by what I observed this summer.  "Get over it.  This is not the real NBA; therefore, it doesn't count."  I watched as future Hawks players did some amazing stuff.  Playing great defense and hitting their shots. 

It was my assumption (if I'm wrong on this, this so be it) that GM was speaking about Daniels given his play this summer.  You even used DD in your comparison with Bruno.  So I thought you were saying not to believe all the hype around DD because the "great defense and hitting shots" doesn't really translate to the NBA.  

Clearly that wasn't what you were saying, but that's how I read it.  

[Final_quest]

It's been this way for years.  Any observation about summer league gets an auto response "It's just summer league".  Let people react to what they see.  One game doesn't define a player's career, but we react to bad and good performances of a single game as well.  

[AHF]

55 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Fair enough.  

I suppose I was thrown off because your response saying international and SL performance doesn't translate was to this post: 

It was my assumption (if I'm wrong on this, this so be it) that GM was speaking about Daniels given his play this summer.  You even used DD in your comparison with Bruno.  So I thought you were saying not to believe all the hype around DD because the "great defense and hitting shots" doesn't really translate to the NBA.  

Clearly that wasn't what you were saying, but that's how I read it.  

I was responding to GM's post more as a criticism of the idea that qualifying what you see in SL and International exhibitions was of limited value and was expressing why that is a general principle that I think makes sense.  My use of DD and Bruno was a critique of the translatability of numbers (which in turn is a proxy for production) and chose them specifically because DD to me has a track record that says we should expect him to keep growing into a bigger role and because we know Bruno is the most likely cut candidate on the roster right now and we should expect him to a play a very limited role on the current roster and perhaps no role at all.  You can use Patty Mills as someone else as someone who clearly isn't going to be meaningful NBA rotation player but who drops 28 points, 24 points, etc. in international games.  But I wasn't focused specifically on DD in that way.  I think DD has a good track record of skills and is at an age and with a pedigree that says we should expect more minutes, a bigger role, and hopefully increasing efficiency and per minute production as he takes on that larger work load.  But I base that more on the NBA track record, etc. than on the Olympic games.

Believe it or not, I'm not jumping in after every post to crap on people who want to say they were impressed by DD or Patty Mills or Bruno, etc.  But I will chime in from time to time when it is not about reacting to what was seen but projecting that into NBA performance that isn't imo backed up by the player's history over much larger sample sizes overlaid with the type of development one would expect from someone of a particular age and scout pedigree.

The discussion about DD where people have debated is whether he plays SG or SF and whether he starts or comes off the bench.  I think it is a given he will see a meaningful increase in minutes and have a bigger role than he had in NO.  Also a given he should be a defensive standout and be critical to the defense like and hopefully even better than the guys to whom he has been compared as a defender (Sefalosha, Thybulle, etc.).  The offense is more questionable to me but he has some versatile skills to be able to contribute there even if he can't command the respect of defenses needed to really stretch the floor early in his Atlanta run.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[benhillboy]

I’m glad he’s playing alongside great teammates like White Joe Ingles, Patty, and Giddey who understand the importance of ball movement for optimal shots.  If King Steven Adams was available they’d really be cooking with grease and an obvious contender to medal.  Ben Simmons not so much.  I have no idea what country Kyrie pledges basketball allegiance to and probably best he isn’t with them anyway.

[REHawksFan]

Boomers win!

https://www.espn.com/mens-olympics-basketball/boxscore/_/gameId/401690980

DD with 13 pts on 5-9 shooting including 3-4 from 3pt. 

Also had 7 Reb, 1 ast, and 1 stl.

Didn't get to watch the game so if anyone else did, how'd he look beyond the box?