Did we get enough value in the Murray trade?

[ABH]

1 hour ago, REHawksFan said:

This is exactly right, imo. DD is being undervalued on the Squawk and DJ is being overvalued. 

I think DD is good..but we still need that 2nd scorer..must have..can't have Trae go out and go with scoring..happened alot 

[Hawkmoor]

37 minutes ago, Threezus said:

I like the analogy but the cars based on value of each thing are pretty far off imo XD   Murray is a good player but he ain't not elite super car type of player LOL.  If i had to put both things received in cars for me it would be something like this.

Murray is a newer mustang GT - Very quality piece of machine that can out do most normal cars and is reliable you know what you are getting in it and can run with some lower end supercars.  But won't hang with the elites of the world like that Mclaren. 

Daniels i would say is a C5 Z06 - What he does he does very well (defense) and if you have time to put work into him and build around his better base(all around size and game) he has the potential to be better than that newer mustang GT. 

The 2 1sts and Nance are just some extra power adder pieces you can pair with that vette hopefully 1 of those 1sts becomes a supercharger and a supercharged c5 kicks that mustangs azz 24/7 

1st time i ever turned players into cars that was sorta fun

Ok.  We getting close.  If Murray is a newer Mustang GT with 486 horsepower, Daniels will never be more than a 1984 Mustang with 4 cylinders and 84 horsepower.

Murray:

 

Daniels:

 

Larry Nance and the others:

 

Edited July 7 by Hawkmoor

[ATLBob]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Give me some numbers for what to expect from Daniels.  Becomes a starter and plays around 30 mpg.  All-NBA defense combined with 15 points, 5 rebounds and 3.5 assists per game?  Is that about what people are expecting?

He will not start (Bogi will).

Prediction: 25 mpg, 7 ppg, 4 reb, 3 ast.

I hope the defense is as good as advertised, but do not think he will make All-NBA.

All the NO fans love him and call him a great bench player

[Final_quest]

I really see this Murray trade(s) as volatile.  We have about seven picks to monitor plus the development of Dyson Daniels.  Add to that. will Murray have a surprising net negative effect in NO like he did with us?

My hunch is we will come out ahead of New Orleans.  San Antonio is too hard to call.  

 

[Threezus]

14 minutes ago, Hawkmoor said:

Ok.  We getting close.  If Murray is a newer Mustang GT with 486 horsepower, Daniels will never be more than a 1984 Mustang with 4 cylinders and 84 horsepower.

 

 

You did Daniels wrong on that 4 cyl fox body he's already better than that.  His elite defense by itself is far ahead of what a 4 cyl fox would be.   a 84 4 cyl fox wouldn't even be Bruno Fernando or Garrison Matthews XD  That would be something like E.J. Liddell  

Daniels elite defense alone deserves him some type of performance car it sets him apart from bums.  

[REHawksFan]

21 minutes ago, ATLBob said:

He will not start (Bogi will).

Prediction: 25 mpg, 7 ppg, 4 reb, 3 ast.

I hope the defense is as good as advertised, but do not think he will make All-NBA.

All the NO fans love him and call him a great bench player

They aren't starting Bogi next to Trae and then having Kobi and DD off the bench.  That makes zero sense. They acquired DD to compliment Trae. And Bogi provides the shooting that Kobi needs. 

It ultimately doesn't matter because they will all play together. 

[Final_quest]

4 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

They aren't starting Bogi next to Trae and then having Kobi and DD off the bench.  That makes zero sense. They acquired DD to compliment Trae. And Bogi provides the shooting that Kobi needs. 

It ultimately doesn't matter because they will all play together. 

I think they can stagger it.  Start Bogi and play Dyson with Trae.  They did the same with Murray.  

[Hawkmoor]

7 minutes ago, Threezus said:

You did Daniels wrong on that 4 cyl fox body he's already better than that.  His elite defense by itself is far ahead of what a 4 cyl fox would be.   a 84 4 cyl fox wouldn't even be Bruno Fernando or Garrison Matthews XD  That would be something like E.J. Liddell  

Daniels elite defense alone deserves him some type of performance car it sets him apart from bums.  

Dodge Charger, base model?

[AHF]

13 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

I think they can stagger it.  Start Bogi and play Dyson with Trae.  They did the same with Murray.  

Agree.  Whether Daniels starts or not, I think they are perfectly capable of staggering so that if they wanted to start Bogi they could. Trae will play around 34 mpg.  The minutes Bufkin plays will be next to Bogi as a base but when they need stops can be next to Daniels.  Between Daniels and Bogi, they will cover nearly all the minutes at SG and both should play 20-30 on any given night.

But given his senior status and how good he has been under Quin, I’m hoping Bogi gets first crack at starting.

[REHawksFan]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Agree.  Whether Daniels starts or not, I think they are perfectly capable of staggering so that if they wanted to start Bogi they could. Trae will play around 34 mpg.  The minutes Bufkin plays will be next to Bogi as a base but when they need stops can be next to Daniels.  Between Daniels and Bogi, they will cover nearly all the minutes at SG and both should play 20-30 on any given night.

But given his senior status and how good he has been under Quin, I’m hoping Bogi gets first crack at starting.

A better question is who closes the close games. They could go offense/ defense or they could go smaller and play Trae/DD/Bogi/JJ

[Threezus]

4 hours ago, Hawkmoor said:

Dodge Charger, base model?

Thats acceptable with with the hemi  with enough time and effort put into it, it could be a beast and already does a few things well

[Watchman]

Dyson scored 5.8 ppg in 22.3 mpg last season.  The implication would be to expect 8 to 9 ppg with an increase to 30 mpg.  To have the impact some of you are talking about, he would have to be an incredibly good defender and decrease opponent scoring by 10 ppg or so to have the kind of impact needed to make up for the poor to mediocre offense that he brings to the table.  I don't think that is a reasonable expectation.  Does such a great defender exist already?  I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. Can his offense be improved that much in one season?  Do we think our coaching staff is that exceptional compared to NOLA?

I just don't think your expectations are realistic at all.

Edited July 8 by Watchman

[SalvorMallow]

@deester11 @bird_dirt @AHF

 

Which one of yall wants to take a 1:12 avatar bet on both Milwaukee and Pels landing a top 4 pick in 27? If they are both in the top 4 so our pick doesnt convey, you control my avatar for 1 year, otherwise I control yours for 1 month.

 

All this nonsense about the secondary protection "moving the needle in a bad way" is downright silly. Put your money where your mouth is.

[SalvorMallow]

20 hours ago, Gray Mule said:

IF!  Big if!  If Dyson Daniels is as good in the future as he appears to be, the trade of Murray for DD is an even swap.  Anything else that Atlanta gets out of the deal is gravy!  

Nance should be good for at least one more season.  One of those "throw-in" players has just recovered from a major injury.  Another If.  If he is as good as he was before his injury, this is a big plus.  If not, oh well.

Got some sugar thrown in - - Draft picks in the future - - sweetens this deal a lot.

To make everything work, got another big man added to the deal.

Please remember:  Hawks had a piece of their picture puzzle that did not fit.  What if he was allowed to walk for nothing.  It has happened to Atlanta before.  Didn't happen.  Signed Murray to a very reasonable contract.  Did this trade.  We had his services for two years and we are sure either he or Trae had to go.  It happened.

Dyson Daniels replaces Murray at the 2 guard.  He appears like he will fit.  We will see.  If he does, we win this trade.  If he bombs out, we lose.  DD is younger than Murray.  He should have more years to play in the NBA.  I believe the Hawks win!

Excellent post. DJ just wasn't working for us and everyone knew we had to move him. We weren't in a position of leverage. With that as the backdrop, the FO was still able to find a player in DD that fits perfectly next to Trae as one of the best POA defenders in the league and a tremendous offensive connector to move the ball when Trae gets trapped or moves the offense to the second and third options.

 

We also got the Lakers pick unprotected which has a MUCH better chance of being top 4 than BOTH the Pelicans and Bucks (why are people complaining about this again?), and a probably high 20s pick in 27.

We had no backup PFs last year and we brought in a solid addition in Nance to shore up the position and to act as a nice expiring piece at the trade deadline.

People wanted us to get a splashy player, but that just wasn't the value for DJ around the league. I'm still struggling to see how DJ and CJ are going to function together when they both need the ball in their hands to create. Also, DJs defense was NOT AS ADVERTISED. I think it'll be better in NO with competent defenders around him, but I think we at least broke even on this trade out the gate, with a strong potential to solidly win it if a couple things swing our way.

[SalvorMallow]

10 hours ago, AHF said:

Are we pretending that a guy playing out of position should be judged in trade value as if he is going to continue to play out of position? DJM was obviously MUCH more effective in his minutes playing point guard than he was as a SG next to Trae.  Other teams trading for him are trading for him as a PG.

That isn’t an All-Star player but it is a guy under team control for 4 years on a great contract.  Guys who average his numbers with any kind of efficiency are valued.  He is too.  I never expected him to return an All-Sta or something but asking for more than a single role player (Nance is filler who is gone after this year), one interesting pick, and one super protected pick should make have been expected.  

Pull up DJM’s numbers when Trae was out and discount the scoring and assists by 20%.  I bet that is still something like 24 points, 6 assists and 5 rebounds a game with a winning record.  That gave Landry a strong hand to play and served as ideal marketing for a DJM trade.

We left money on the table.

From the dude who always lauds the importance of efficiency on offense, I'm surprised to see this post. Sure DJ took more shots when he was PG and therefore scored more points, but his eFG was 54.5% as PG and 53.2% as SG, Neither of those are great, I really don't see this super effective point guard that you are trying to paint him to be. Is he "better" as a PG, sure, but still has huge warts. He loves to ISO. He frequently throws the balls at the roll mans feet. He is allergic to contact. This isn't the slam dunk for NOP that you are making it out to be.

[Spud2nique]

I voted that we won it. In retrospect we should have never done the DJ trade, but getting back Daniels and 2 firsts and Nance is a win. Not counting Lidell and Zeller.

Again, Trae played better without DJ. Can’t have 2 guards that need the ball in their hands. Trae now has better defense around him in the form of Daniels and Risacher. As well as better catch n shoot opportunities created by Trae for Bogi, Risacher etc. 

Addition by subtraction in my view. 
 

Ya, I’d chalk it up as a win. Nobody ever thought we were gonna get a top 25 player in the league for him. 
 

Also glad we passed on Ingram. Again he needs the ball in his hands.

Now we have a bunch of dudes on the roster who don’t need the ball to make plays. JJ with the slashing, Bogi with the shooting. 

[Sothron]

So many people I think will be changing their tune once the games start. Dyson Daniels is an elite POA defender. We haven't had that since Thabo before the NYC police. He's also a very good passer and has a good floater. He was stuck in a logjam at wing in NO. 

He's a great player to put next to Trae. We actually have a stopper at POA. This trade can't be seen as one player versus another player. We got much better on defense and also have future firsts as well. 

[Spud2nique]

9 hours ago, AHF said:

Give me some numbers for what to expect from Daniels.  Becomes a starter and plays around 30 mpg.  All-NBA defense combined with 15 points, 5 rebounds and 3.5 assists per game?  Is that about what people are expecting?

16.5 points

6.5 rebounds 

3.5 assists 

1.5 steals

1.0 blocks

47% FG

34% 3p%

 

[Gray Mule]

Pelican fans say that they loved DD.  Hawk fans love Murray.  Both have faults.  Both have great + ratings for their best abilities.  Pelicans needed a PG.  Success!  Hawks needed defense.  Success!  

Murray will begin his Pelican career as a starter.  Dyson Daniels is expected to begin his Hawk career by coming off the bench.  There will come a time, possibly in his first season, that DD becomes a starter.  Being so much younger than Murray, this can be expected.  DD faces a lot more competition at 2 guard than Murray does at PG.

Hawk fans, from all I have read, be prepared to love our new 2 guard, Dyson Daniels!

[REHawksFan]

16 hours ago, AHF said:

Are we pretending that a guy playing out of position should be judged in trade value as if he is going to continue to play out of position? DJM was obviously MUCH more effective in his minutes playing point guard than he was as a SG next to Trae.  Other teams trading for him are trading for him as a PG.

Are we pretending that other teams don't understand that Trae and DJ don't fit and we HAVE to split them up? Like other teams don't know that keeping DJ is not an actual option? 

The Hawks were negotiating from a position of weakness. And it's not because Landry doesn't know what he's doing. Teams knew the Hawks weren't seriously considering trading Trae. So the ONLY logical conclusion is the Hawks were going to trade DJ for something. Knowing that, why would any team value DJ as a pg and give up more than they had to. There was never a threat if Atlanta just keeping him. 

The Hawks got as much as the Pels were willing to give up. And that was apparently more than any other team was willing to give up. That's a win.