Did we get enough value in the Murray trade?

[Afro]

30 minutes ago, ATLBob said:

The other assumption is that a third-year player is going to automatically get more opportunities and a larger role while learning a brand new system on a brand new team, a team that still has to find minutes for its own second year PG/SG, an extremely well established SG who will start over him, a 23 apy wing in his 6th year, a #1 overall pick rookie wing, and minutes for Gary Bird (15 mpg last season).

Please note, I’m not at all saying it won’t happen. I hope it does. I hope DD takes a leap and fits into this role many of y’all are projecting for him.

But surely we can recognize that such is well above a median projection.

This was not a trade for a starter THIS year. It was a trade to break up a backcourt that wasn’t working for financial (kudos), recoup assets lost in the original trade, and gain additional financial relief.

I think we pretty much all like DD and are optimistic about his fit.

Some are just making it seem like the FO targeted him as a starter. Again, maybe they did. Hopefully his play forces the issue, but that’s a tall ask when Bogi is this team’s second-best player atm (yes, we hope JJ takes that mantle and the ZR can acclimate and the shooting is real).

We’ll see.

 

100%. 

I said last week that I am a little worried that Bufkin is only going to be able to squeak out 15mpg this year without a whole lot of room for growth in future unless one of Bogi/Trae leaves. Or Zacc never plays at the 2, which is decently likely. Then Id assume he'd fall into 3rd for both the PG and SG rotation, which still isn't great unless someone leaves. 

Rish is definitely the swing part in all of this. As you said, we can't forget that we have the #1 pick lol. I get he's not a typical #1 pick, but if he gets the typical Hawks rookie minutes.....I think we're all going to be very disapointed with that. 

So yes, DJM leaves a hole, but I expect Trae/Bogi/JJ to eat a lot of that void. Some of JJs old role will be available along with Beys. To me, that's where Zacc and DD fit in. I can see DD fitting a little bit into what JJs role as a facilitator that does a lot of work in the paint. I can see ZR fitting into a shooter that occasionally drives. 

My main question still just comes down to how much that is actually a thing. Current DD needs to play with Trae or Bogi pretty much at all times. A lineup of DD/Rish/Hunter/Nance/Big makes me kind of nervous. So that means for 75% of the game he's at least on the floor with Trae and JJ and most likely a ton of minutes with all 3 of Bogi, Trae, and JJ. To me that just puts him a tertiary role on office. Sort of like Jrue became in Boston. 

Which, Jrue is fantastic, so that's not a knock. I just don't see where this giant offensive outburst is coming from....unless at the expense of your #1 pick. And even more so at the expense of last years FRP. 

 

Edited July 8 by Afro

[JeffS17]

27 minutes ago, AHF said:

FWIW, Mathews had a great second half last year but I don't think he is even a small factor in terms of Dyson Daniels' minutes this season.  DD should get all the time available that he can handle and Mathews should see a significant reduction in playing time from what he got last season, imo.

Mathews had excellent minutes for us last season, despite a cohort here mocking Landry for the addition and calling him Meth Bogi for most of the season.  He scored 12 points per 36 on 46/44/81 shooting.  All for a paltry $2M.

[Afro]

We're venturing far away from DJM trade talks but just an interesting thought.

There are 144 minutes between the 1,2, and 3. 

We have Trae, Bogi, Hunter, DD, Rish, and Bufkin there at minimum with probably another 20 minutes strewn amongst the deeper bench. 

Trae and Bogi will take a huge chunk of that, barring injury. 

That leaves 80ish to spread amongst Hunter, DD, Rish, Bufkin, and the deep bench. Hunter might can add some minutes at the 4 though. 

Hunter, DD, and Rish all need 25+ minutes. DD for talent, Hunter and Rish for the value invested in them. 

 

We've got a bit of a minute issue lol. 

Edited July 8 by Afro

[Gray Mule]

Dyson Daniels has questionable offense.  How wide open do you expect him to be?  Someone will surely cover him, or our opponent will pay the price.  I don't expect a lot of scoring from him because of his history.  This is a new team, a new coach and different play plans.  He will score some.  He's not a completely lost cause on offense.

Dyson Daniels, we are told by those who should know, is the best defensive player on our roster.  Will he be able to defend as a Hawk without being called for a lot of fouls?  We hope!  Will he be on the floor at game's final minutes?  This probably depends on whether we need offense (Bogie) or defense (DD).

Hawks now have several 20 something players, along with our teen-age 1st round lottery pick.  Room to learn and grow.  We know that we can't trade for a great all-star player so we must grow our own!

[AHF]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

Mathews had excellent minutes for us last season, despite a cohort here mocking Landry for the addition and calling him Meth Bogi for most of the season.  He scored 12 points per 36 on 46/44/81 shooting.  All for a paltry $2M.

Do you expect him to cut into Daniels' minutes?  I surely don't.

[AHF]

56 minutes ago, Afro said:

We're venturing far away from DJM trade talks but just an interesting thought.

There are 144 minutes between the 1,2, and 3. 

We have Trae, Bogi, Hunter, DD, Rish, and Bufkin there at minimum with probably another 20 minutes strewn amongst the deeper bench. 

Trae and Bogi will take a huge chunk of that, barring injury. 

That leaves 80ish to spread amongst Hunter, DD, Rish, Bufkin, and the deep bench. Hunter might can add some minutes at the 4 though. 

Hunter, DD, and Rish all need 25+ minutes. DD for talent, Hunter and Rish for the value invested in them. 

 

We've got a bit of a minute issue lol. 

I think we should expect some missed time for this group as well.  The average mpg will add up to more than 144 minutes.

[JeffS17]

11 minutes ago, AHF said:

Do you expect him to cut into Daniels' minutes?  I surely don't.

Of course not, just pointing out that the doom and gloom around our depth last year was overstated as Mathews actually provided very good minutes for us.  He was essentially Kevin Heurter that everyone wanted to go into the tax for as our third string shooting guard.

[AHF]

14 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Of course not, just pointing out that the doom and gloom around our depth last year was overstated as Mathews actually provided very good minutes for us.  He was essentially Kevin Heurter that everyone wanted to go into the tax for as our third string shooting guard.

You overstate his effectiveness.  He was an excellent low volume sniper.  Not nearly as good a passer, rebounder, or defender as Huerter (and Huerter isn't a good rebounder or defender).  There is a reason he finished the season with an 8.9 PER, highly negative BPM, and negative VORP.  Huerter does everything better except for shooting efficiency (I don't say scoring because Mathews is too low volume to compete with Huerter there).

And why do you keep talking about us going into the tax?  This is our exchange and I've said over and over that we wouldn't pay the tax without the team finding a special chemistry which is exactly the situation you say that would justify paying the tax.  My issue is not finding out whether there is a special chemistry after you've made a huge investment in adding DJM.  Take Korver or Thabo off of that 2014-15 Hawks team and they never find their chemistry, imo.  It needed all the key players to work.

 

[REHawksFan]

3 hours ago, ATLBob said:

The other assumption is that a third-year player is going to automatically get more opportunities and a larger role while learning a brand new system on a brand new team, a team that still has to find minutes for its own second year PG/SG, an extremely well established SG who will start over him, a 23 apy wing in his 6th year, a #1 overall pick rookie wing, and minutes for Gary Bird (15 mpg last season).

Please note, I’m not at all saying it won’t happen. I hope it does. I hope DD takes a leap and fits into this role many of y’all are projecting for him.

But surely we can recognize that such is well above a median projection.

This was not a trade for a starter THIS year. It was a trade to break up a backcourt that wasn’t working for financial (kudos), recoup assets lost in the original trade, and gain additional financial relief.

I think we pretty much all like DD and are optimistic about his fit.

Some are just making it seem like the FO targeted him as a starter. Again, maybe they did. Hopefully his play forces the issue, but that’s a tall ask when Bogi is this team’s second-best player atm (yes, we hope JJ takes that mantle and the ZR can acclimate and the shooting is real).

We’ll see.

 

Bogi isn't starting over DD.  

[Afro]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

Of course not, just pointing out that the doom and gloom around our depth last year was overstated as Mathews actually provided very good minutes for us.  He was essentially Kevin Heurter that everyone wanted to go into the tax for as our third string shooting guard.

Brother lol

[REHawksFan]

2 hours ago, Afro said:

We're venturing far away from DJM trade talks but just an interesting thought.

There are 144 minutes between the 1,2, and 3. 

We have Trae, Bogi, Hunter, DD, Rish, and Bufkin there at minimum with probably another 20 minutes strewn amongst the deeper bench. 

Trae and Bogi will take a huge chunk of that, barring injury. 

That leaves 80ish to spread amongst Hunter, DD, Rish, Bufkin, and the deep bench. Hunter might can add some minutes at the 4 though. 

Hunter, DD, and Rish all need 25+ minutes. DD for talent, Hunter and Rish for the value invested in them. 

 

We've got a bit of a minute issue lol. 

Barring major injury stuff, this is sort of how I would project it:

The bolded 5 are starters if all are healthy. Most of the numbers are based off of the past year's numbers and are either slightly higher or slightly lower depending on what I think each player's role would be.  Obviously DD is significantly higher in terms of FGA.  With Bogi, keep in mind he played 79 games this year and will be on the Olympic team this summer. At 31 years old, I can't imagine he'll be logging 30+ minutes this upcoming year.  

Trae and JJ are the two anchors.  I think DD makes the most sense starting alongside Trae and playing the most minutes, but only slightly more than Bogi off the bench.  I'm basically assuming DD/BB and Ris/Dre are at the 2/3 and are fairly interchangeable.  

Finally, I'm starting OO if for no other reason than to continue to wish it into existence.  If I say it enough it will have to actually happen, right?  As for Clint, I'm projecting him to be traded either before the season or at the deadline so he only gets 55 games plugged in.  

 

[SalvorMallow]

18 minutes ago, REHawksFan said:

Barring major injury stuff, this is sort of how I would project it:

The bolded 5 are starters if all are healthy. Most of the numbers are based off of the past year's numbers and are either slightly higher or slightly lower depending on what I think each player's role would be.  Obviously DD is significantly higher in terms of FGA.  With Bogi, keep in mind he played 79 games this year and will be on the Olympic team this summer. At 31 years old, I can't imagine he'll be logging 30+ minutes this upcoming year.  

Trae and JJ are the two anchors.  I think DD makes the most sense starting alongside Trae and playing the most minutes, but only slightly more than Bogi off the bench.  I'm basically assuming DD/BB and Ris/Dre are at the 2/3 and are fairly interchangeable.  

Finally, I'm starting OO if for no other reason than to continue to wish it into existence.  If I say it enough it will have to actually happen, right?  As for Clint, I'm projecting him to be traded either before the season or at the deadline so he only gets 55 games plugged in.  

 

I'll be shocked if we start a rookie and DD over Hunter and Bogi. It would signal to me that we aren't playing to win games next season, but instead rebuilding and focusing on development. Maybe not the best move given Traes very clear messaging that he wants to win. 

[REHawksFan]

15 minutes ago, SalvorMallow said:

I'll be shocked if we start a rookie and DD over Hunter and Bogi. It would signal to me that we aren't playing to win games next season, but instead rebuilding and focusing on development. Maybe not the best move given Traes very clear messaging that he wants to win. 

DD fits with Trae better than Bogi who fits with Kobe a lot better than DD.  

But ultimately, does it matter?  I have them all playing almost identical minutes.  

[Final_quest]

4 hours ago, ATLBob said:

The other assumption is that a third-year player is going to automatically get more opportunities and a larger role while learning a brand new system on a brand new team, a team that still has to find minutes for its own second year PG/SG, an extremely well established SG who will start over him, a 23 apy wing in his 6th year, a #1 overall pick rookie wing, and minutes for Gary Bird (15 mpg last season).

Please note, I’m not at all saying it won’t happen. I hope it does. I hope DD takes a leap and fits into this role many of y’all are projecting for him.

But surely we can recognize that such is well above a median projection.

This was not a trade for a starter THIS year. It was a trade to break up a backcourt that wasn’t working for financial (kudos), recoup assets lost in the original trade, and gain additional financial relief.

I think we pretty much all like DD and are optimistic about his fit.

Some are just making it seem like the FO targeted him as a starter. Again, maybe they did. Hopefully his play forces the issue, but that’s a tall ask when Bogi is this team’s second-best player atm (yes, we hope JJ takes that mantle and the ZR can acclimate and the shooting is real).

We’ll see.

 

I think Bogi is the starter until someone takes the job from him.  

[JayBirdHawk]

One New Orleans fan thoughts on DD:

Quote

Keep in mind, while Daniels has been in the league for 2 years, he's been playing behind CJ & Herb the same duration. I think Daniels takes a step in consistent PT alone.

If any of you are willing, pull up the Pels/Mavs 2nd meeting of the season where Borrego was coaching in Greens absence. He opts to start Daniels with Herb, when CJ went down to injury. Catch a glimpse of what you traded for.

In this 10 game stretch where Daniels started over CJ, NO's beat 5 teams over 500. (Mavs, Denver, Clippers, Kings 2x, Minnesota) ... Jonas - ZIon - BI - Herb - Daniels +20 100 minutes 

They did this with CJ, Nance, Jose, Murphy all out, no effective spacing & no bench production. Defense, transition & post efficiency.

Daniels was an ideal low usage defensive fit with ZIon, as he will be with Young. 

 

 

[SalvorMallow]

3 hours ago, REHawksFan said:

DD fits with Trae better than Bogi who fits with Kobe a lot better than DD.  

But ultimately, does it matter?  I have them all playing almost identical minutes.  

Your logic makes sense here, pairing offense with defense, but this remains to be seen. Bogi and Trae pair very well together since Trae thrives with shooters. I'm nervous about TY, DD, ZR, JJ, OO because there just isn't much proven shooting in that lineup.

 

I'd like to see the game to slow down for ZR and he starts knocking down threes at the NBA level, as well as an increase of 3PA from OO and JJ before we employ that starting 5. Hopefully that'll be mid way through the season.

[JayBirdHawk]

The TPE we received from the DJ trade is worth $25.2 million.  It expires 07/07/2025.

[Jdawgflow]

16 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

The TPE we received from the DJ trade is worth $25.2 million.  It expires 07/07/2025.

Where did you find the info?  Did it just come out?

[JayBirdHawk]

2 minutes ago, Jdawgflow said:

Where did you find the info?  Did it just come out?

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/atlanta-hawks/overview/_/year/2024/sort/cap_total

[Jdawgflow]

51 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

https://www.spotrac.com/nba/atlanta-hawks/overview/_/year/2024/sort/cap_total

I guess it just took a bit to come out publicly.