Paris Olympics 2024

[StonedDogs]

On 8/12/2024 at 9:30 AM, JeffS17 said:

I actually think the team will be better in 2028.  I know this is blasphemy in NBA circles, but Lebron and KD are both well past their primes.  Spread Lebron's usage from this Olympics to the rest of the team and I don't think we do any worse.  You just need a true PG to replace his ball dominance.  Plus, 4 years is a ton of time for guys to develop and get better and this team will already have a nice foundation with Ant, Bam, Tatum, and Booker.  I doubt AD/Embiid make it to the next one, and there are some good center replacement options available too.  I think Jarrett Allen would be a really nice FIBA center, Chet will probably be a beast in 4 years as well.

This is a crazy take lol... Booker/Ant, who are already on the team, could take turns running point and we would still win a gold in 2028.  But my guess is they add Brunson, who would be a nice FIBA player.  Highly doubt Ja would be added to the national team as he would be an even worse fit than Trae.  FIBA rules are not great for Trae for a number of reasons, so I doubt he'll be on any of the national teams.

One of the smartest takes I've read here. Well said sir

[JeffS17]

14 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Dennis Schröder, Patty Mills and Bogi excel in the FIBA game, but the rules would hamper Trae?

Who can guard Trae on that level?

Bam and Trae would be a MONSTER in the pick and roll. And Trae would get more catch and shoot opportunities playing with a high level squad like that.

 

Dennis Schröder, Patty Mills and Bogi have next to zero competition for their spots on the national teams.  It's not a matter of if Trae could do well or not, but could he do better than his peers.  And IMO with FIBA rules, he's not the ideal guard.  Defense matters more in FIBA than it does in the NBA because they actually allow guys to play defense.

And Trae's defense would be heavily exploited in FIBA.  So not only are the rules around calling timeouts much stricter, it's much more physical play which is not good for Trae on either side of the ball.  Trae is a monster in the PnR, I agree 100% but when you're comparing him to other elite American guards, the difference isn't big enough to make up for his deficiencies.  You really need guards that can play off ball and on ball and are good defenders.  Trae's off ball skills are not where they need to be and he can't help that he's undersized.

[NBASupes]

21 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

Dennis Schröder, Patty Mills and Bogi have next to zero competition for their spots on the national teams.  It's not a matter of if Trae could do well or not, but could he do better than his peers.  And IMO with FIBA rules, he's not the ideal guard.  Defense matters more in FIBA than it does in the NBA because they actually allow guys to play defense.

And Trae's defense would be heavily exploited in FIBA.  So not only are the rules around calling timeouts much stricter, it's much more physical play which is not good for Trae on either side of the ball.  Trae is a monster in the PnR, I agree 100% but when you're comparing him to other elite American guards, the difference isn't big enough to make up for his deficiencies.  You really need guards that can play off ball and on ball and are good defenders.  Trae's off ball skills are not where they need to be and he can't help that he's undersized.

Being an on ball wizard is less valuable in FIBA

[AHF]

On 8/12/2024 at 9:30 AM, JeffS17 said:

I actually think the team will be better in 2028.  I know this is blasphemy in NBA circles, but Lebron and KD are both well past their primes.  Spread Lebron's usage from this Olympics to the rest of the team and I don't think we do any worse.  You just need a true PG to replace his ball dominance.  Plus, 4 years is a ton of time for guys to develop and get better and this team will already have a nice foundation with Ant, Bam, Tatum, and Booker.  I doubt AD/Embiid make it to the next one, and there are some good center replacement options available too.  I think Jarrett Allen would be a really nice FIBA center, Chet will probably be a beast in 4 years as well.

I think you and I were watching different games if you think LeBron wasn't one of the very best players on the team this year.  Giving his minutes to the rest of the team would not have helped this year.  LeBron and Steph were absolutely essential to this team and I don't think you are going to get Booker, Tatum or Bam replacing that at all.  If I project a lot of growth onto Ant I can at least see that but LeBron is still really good both in the NBA and in international play.  He was not holding this team back at all.  More like holding it up, imo.

[JeffS17]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I think you and I were watching different games if you think LeBron wasn't one of the very best players on the team this year.  Giving his minutes to the rest of the team would not have helped this year.  LeBron and Steph were absolutely essential to this team and I don't think you are going to get Booker, Tatum or Bam replacing that at all.  If I project a lot of growth onto Ant I can at least see that but LeBron is still really good both in the NBA and in international play.  He was not holding this team back at all.  More like holding it up, imo.

Lebron played good on the offensive end but left some to be desired imo on defense.  But the reality is the overall drop-off between this version of Lebron and his national team replacement is negligible even in the most favorable evaluation of his performance.  This isn't a regular season NBA game where Lebron sits and you sub in Cam Reddish; his replacement in an all-NBA level player.  I think we will be better in 2028.

[AHF]

1 hour ago, JeffS17 said:

Lebron played good on the offensive end but left some to be desired imo on defense.  But the reality is the overall drop-off between this version of Lebron and his national team replacement is negligible even in the most favorable evaluation of his performance.  This isn't a regular season NBA game where Lebron sits and you sub in Cam Reddish; his replacement in an all-NBA level player.  I think we will be better in 2028.

Agree to disagree on that.  I think without LeBron or Steph (and definitely without both) we are looking at a silver or bronze medal.  LeBron was huge in the games that were in dispute.

[macdaddy]

I didn't watch every game but just seemed like a lot of taking turns to iso from the US to me.  Which usually works out fine but does rely on Steph or someone going off in the clutch.  US had tons of turnovers because a bunch of the guys aren't good passers.  Maybe if Spoelstra takes over it will change.   Kerr did basically nothing that i could tell other than continue the Kerr/Hill tradition of accidental insults of players and letting the stars do whatever they want. 

Definitely time for a regime change.   I get that international ball is different but it isn't so different that Serbia or France should be close to beating an NBA all star team.  

Or it's possible that the real difference is that some of our stars are propped up by the NBA officiating system and maybe aren't as great as we think they are.  

[TheNorthCydeRises]

On 8/14/2024 at 8:55 AM, JeffS17 said:

Dennis Schröder, Patty Mills and Bogi have next to zero competition for their spots on the national teams.  It's not a matter of if Trae could do well or not, but could he do better than his peers.  And IMO with FIBA rules, he's not the ideal guard.  Defense matters more in FIBA than it does in the NBA because they actually allow guys to play defense.

And Trae's defense would be heavily exploited in FIBA.  So not only are the rules around calling timeouts much stricter, it's much more physical play which is not good for Trae on either side of the ball.  Trae is a monster in the PnR, I agree 100% but when you're comparing him to other elite American guards, the difference isn't big enough to make up for his deficiencies.  You really need guards that can play off ball and on ball and are good defenders.  Trae's off ball skills are not where they need to be and he can't help that he's undersized.

LMAO . . this is hogwash.  The FIBA game isn't toughest at the guard position.  It's toughest on the frontline positions.  When you have 6-9 to 7-4 European players who can shoot the ball from the outside and bang inside, that's the biggest threat to the US team.  That's exactly why the Brandon Ingram led USA team lost.

You talk like a Euro team is going to specifically target Trae the entire game and have their way.  They don't even do that on the NBA level, so why would you expect it on the FIBA level?

What Trae would bring to any USA National team, is elite passing, deep outside shooting, and the ability to get easy shots at the rim.  Most of all, he'd make the offense much easier to run, simply by the way he can break down defenses and find people for easy shots at the rim or at the 3 point line,

And playing off the ball?  Come on man.  Trae is consistently one of the best catch and shoot guys in the league, albeit on limited attempts.  You REALL don't think Trae couldn't play off the ball, with Anthony Edwards and Devin Booker at the wing?  You honestly don't think he could knock down a 3 if the ball is passed to him, or make a cut to the basket by beating his man on a quick backdoor cut?

You think THAT little of Trae?  A guy who has never been stopped at any level of basketball as a scorer?  Trae's detractors bring up the lone Miami series when a team finally figured out a way to double and triple team him, in order to stop him.   Then in the following year that he played that same Miami team in the play-in, he did this:

 

 

Couldn't double him, because he had a competent guard who could also score playing beside him.  But you think he'd be a liability playing with a bunch of Hall of Famers?

On defense, I guess a guy like Dennis Schröder or Patty Mills would drop 40 on Trae.  Is that the narrative?

 

[JeffS17]

33 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

The FIBA game isn't toughest at the guard position.  It's toughest on the frontline positions.

I didn't say that? Not sure if you're just ranting here or responding to me.

34 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

What Trae would bring to any USA National team, is elite passing, deep outside shooting, and the ability to get easy shots at the rim.  Most of all, he'd make the offense much easier to run, simply by the way he can break down defenses and find people for easy shots at the rim or at the 3 point line

Trae is not going to get easy shots at the rim in FIBA ball.  He will facilitate at an elite level for sure, but he's a volume scorer and team USA isn't going to build around him so he can shoot 20 shots a game... this is the best players in the country on one team that need to fit into one system interchangeably.  That system isn't going to be heliocentric Trae ball and that's not a shot at Trae.  His defense would absolutely be a liability.

36 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

You think THAT little of Trae?

If "THAT little" is me saying he's not a good fit for the national team, then yes.  This isn't even that controversial of a take.  I say all of this as a big Trae fan; I'm just not delusional about his limitations.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[macdaddy]

16 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

I didn't say that? Not sure if you're just ranting here or responding to me.

Trae is not going to get easy shots at the rim in FIBA ball.  He will facilitate at an elite level for sure, but he's a volume scorer and team USA isn't going to build around him so he can shoot 20 shots a game... this is the best players in the country on one team that need to fit into one system interchangeably.  That system isn't going to be heliocentric Trae ball and that's not a shot at Trae.  His defense would absolutely be a liability.

If "THAT little" is me saying he's not a good fit for the national team, then yes.  This isn't even that controversial of a take.  I say all of this as a big Trae fan; I'm just not delusional about his limitations.

Not really understanding why you think Trae would feel the need to be a volume scorer on the national team vs just a facilitator.  Pretty much every player on the team has to adjust their game not being the #1 option.  Why would Trae be the only one unable to do this.  

[AHF]

14 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Not really understanding why you think Trae would feel the need to be a volume scorer on the national team vs just a facilitator.  Pretty much every player on the team has to adjust their game not being the #1 option.  Why would Trae be the only one unable to do this.  

I don't know that he will ever get the chance but Patty Mills and similarly mediocre guards in the mold of Trae (small scorers and subpar defenders) have had a lot of success in the international game.  I would be very interested to see how it went.  I don't see why all these other small scoring guards can be successful for other teams and not for the US, especially when Trae is a better passer and facilitator than any of them.

[JeffS17]

54 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Not really understanding why you think Trae would feel the need to be a volume scorer on the national team vs just a facilitator.  Pretty much every player on the team has to adjust their game not being the #1 option.  Why would Trae be the only one unable to do this.  

You answered the question right here.  If Trae is not HIGHLY utilized on offense, he's overall just a much worse selection than a two-way player.  He's great for the Hawks when his usage rate is top 5 in the league.  It makes up for his poor defense.  If he's not running at a high offensive usage, you just have a massive defensive liability on the floor for no reason.

You see this in our last 2 seasons because of the DJ effect-- Trae's usage was 9th in the league and 17th in the league.  Prior to that, it was about top 5 in the league.  This is when Trae's best.  You need to be getting a lot out of him on the offensive side to make up for his defensive liabilities.

[macdaddy]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I don't know that he will ever get the chance but Patty Mills and similarly mediocre guards in the mold of Trae (small scorers and subpar defenders) have had a lot of success in the international game.  I would be very interested to see how it went.  I don't see why all these other small scoring guards can be successful for other teams and not for the US, especially when Trae is a better passer and facilitator than any of them.

Derrick White was supposedly brought in for ball handling and defense but in the end didn't really play much when it mattered.  The D guys, White, Bam, AD all had limited minutes.  

[macdaddy]

2 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

You answered the question right here.  If Trae is not HIGHLY utilized on offense, he's overall just a much worse selection than a two-way player.  He's great for the Hawks when his usage rate is top 5 in the league.  It makes up for his poor defense.  If he's not running at a high offensive usage, you just have a massive defensive liability on the floor for no reason.

You see this in our last 2 seasons because of the DJ effect-- Trae's usage was 9th in the league and 17th in the league.  Prior to that, it was about top 5 in the league.  This is when Trae's best.  You need to be getting a lot out of him on the offensive side to make up for his defensive liabilities.

I suppose.  I think we have lots of options.  I don't think Trae's D is so bad that it makes him unplayable in the olympics.  Hell Bogi just about helped lead his team to gold.   France utilized Fournier for 20 minutes a game.  

[JayBirdHawk]

36 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

You answered the question right here.  If Trae is not HIGHLY utilized on offense, he's overall just a much worse selection than a two-way player.  He's great for the Hawks when his usage rate is top 5 in the league.  It makes up for his poor defense.  If he's not running at a high offensive usage, you just have a massive defensive liability on the floor for no reason.

You see this in our last 2 seasons because of the DJ effect-- Trae's usage was 9th in the league and 17th in the league.  Prior to that, it was about top 5 in the league.  This is when Trae's best.  You need to be getting a lot out of him on the offensive side to make up for his defensive liabilities.

You also have to consider the Hawks overall talent vs Team USA's talent and their respective abilities to actually 'help' him on the offensive side. Trae can run off all the screens but if the Hawks have no one to get him the ball or if defenses don't care about them scoring, it doesn't matter. Team USA guys demand defensive attention, so all eyes not on Trae. It's a different makeup.

So trying to do a 1 for 1 comparison of usage doesn't work in this application.

And this isn't me saying it can work one way or the other.  Just pointing out the skill of teammates matter.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

19 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

You also have to consider the Hawks overall talent vs Team USA's talent and their respective abilities to actually 'help' him on the offensive side. Trae can run off all the screens but if the Hawks have no one to get him the ball or if defenses don't care about them scoring, it doesn't matter. Team USA guys demand defensive attention, so all eyes not on Trae. It's a different makeup.

So trying to do a 1 for 1 comparison of usage doesn't work in this application.

And this isn't me saying it can work one way or the other.  Just pointing out the skill of teammates matter.

The skill of the teammates definitely matter.  Once again, the best player Trae has ever played with, was DJ. And the best big he ever played with is John Collins.

In a league where players team up with each other like The Avengers, Trae has had to fight battles, with at best, the Human Torch from the Fantastic Four by his side.

FIBA Trae is more than likely a 14 ppg - 9 apg guy, due to his facilitation and deep 3 point shooting.

On defense, he'll be up top in the matchup zone that Team USA frequently played. Trae is competent enough to stay in front of his man on defense. He showed that plenty of times last season, even making key defensive stops at the end of games.

We'll see what happens in 2028, when they select Ja Morant, but note that his 3 point shot nor his playmaking is up to par.

If Team USA needs a pure PG once Lebron retires, why wouldn't Trae be selection?

[JeffS17]

2 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Trae is competent enough to stay in front of his man on defense. He showed that plenty of times last season, even making key defensive stops at the end of games.

You guys make it impossible to have an honest discussion around Trae

[benhillboy]

4 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

If Team USA needs a pure PG once Lebron retires, why wouldn't Trae be selection?

I don’t see why Haliburton wouldn’t slot into that role having been through the experience already.  The coaches and managers covet his three point shooting, assist to turnover, and makeup, which are all elite.  With Spo at the Head though he definately is gonna have to show more defensively.  
 

I think Tyus Jones will definitely garner some consideration based on what he does in the next few years in Phoenix and on the deal he wants, he’ll be 32.  If he’s anywhere near .578 TS with a 7:1 assist to turnover like he was last season in true starter minutes I guarantee he will.

Ja looked much better as a playmaker for the few games he came back.  Obviously not near Traes level but he was at a very impressive 8:3 ratio.  I value his dribble drive game in the NBA a huge deal but in FIBA with less space and better team familiarity amongst defenses I’m not sure.

Over the past few seasons Trae and Ja are pretty much the same in PNR defense, around 46th percentile per BBall Index.  No PG is really put in true isolation that much but Ja has a clear edge at 77th to Trae’s 56th.

I would like to see Trae’s crazy passing creation in FIBA but you have to accept there will be some image changing he has to do for the “eggsperts”, whether you agree or totally scoff at his perceived “standing.”  Maintaining his improved effort on defense from last season now he has better personnel and cutting the turnovers some will bode very well.

All of the guards that played (Steph, Jrue, Ant, White) can rebound in traffic.  That is also a factor.

Edited August 17 by benhillboy

[Spud2nique]

 

be that weak bits- German  

 

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