QRich, Kobe, Manu or SJax????

[Plainview1981]

Dog is passed his prime. Now he's about as worrysome as

a cloudy day to opposing teams. I think Jackson is going

to play better and I think he'll get overrated for it mainly

because it's easier to produce better ESP now since the team

has no expectations.

[Diesel]

No... It's still true..

Jackson will never be the rebounder that Big Dog is.

Jackson will never be able to shoot higher than 46% for his career like big Dog did.

Those things are true.

By the same token, Grob is not as atheletic nor is he the defender that Jax is.

Does that make Jax Better? No. They are different.

When we had Reef and our offense centered around a halfcourt game... Jax was not better for us than Big Dog.

Now that Reef is gone and all we do is run, Jax is better.

This isn't spin at all swole. This is just the truth. Had we had a more classic PG with Reef and Big Dog, we would have been a much better team. However, in JT, we don't have a PG who can run an offense so what we have is choas. We were a confused team. We didn't know if we were a running team or a halfcourt team. We didn't know who our money guy was although it was obvious that Reef should have been. So we didn't have any cohesion.

NOW. We are strickly a run and fun team. We have no goto guy so JT doesn't have to be a PG. In this circumstance, Jax coming down and pulling a three pointer is not that bad. However, when Reef was in the post and Jax and Glover were chucking threes... Didn't it make you mad? I mean, Reef a 50% shooter and by shot count he was our 3rd option because Jax and Glover were busy chucking threes,,,, Didn't that make you upset? It did because Jax's play seemed idoitic when we were a halfcourt team. Now that we have no Low post presence, Jax chucking threes is tolerable.

[swolehawk2]

It really boils down to this Diesel....is the game that Dog brings to the floor greater than the game Jax brings?.

In other words which would you rather have Dog and his shortcomings or Jax and his?

If you can say with a straight face that if you had to choose one player to be on your club at this point in their careers you would obviously take the better player....which one would that be....

You can throw rebounds out ...because they are almost equal.

Now what other thing does Dog brings....jumpshooting...thats it.

What does Jax bring...Jax is better in every other aspect of the game ...whether it be dribbling...passing...defense...athleticism...hustle....he is better in transition...do you contest any of these things Diesel?

You have to look at everything a player brings...when deciding who is the more complete player.

[KB21]

Hell no!

Dog can do one thing, and that is shoot the mid range jumper. He brings nothing else to a team at all.

Jackson is a better long range shooter, a better ball handler (not saying much), a better slasher, and a better defender. Jackson is also more willing to play within the team concept on offense.

The fact that Jackson is better suited to a running style is better for the Hawks. That's the style they want to play. This is a team whose coach has a run and gun philosophy on offense.

The Hawks weren't as half court oriented with Reef as some think. In actuality, they tried to make Reef more get out and run oriented than post oriented. It simply wasn't going to work out with Reef. He's too mechanical to play in that style, and his perimeter skills leave a lot to be desired to play in that style.

[Diesel]

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It really boils down to this Diesel....is the game that Dog brings to the floor greater than the game Jax brings?.

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The other question that must be asked is what kind of team do I have?

Do I have a team that is a transition team.

Or

Do I have a Halfcourt/defensive team?

That determines who bring more to the table.

The team that Dog played on with Cassell, Allen, and Scott Williams was successful because they played mostly halfcourt sets where Scott Williams would set the pick and either Allen or Big Dog would be freed in the flow of the offense. In that offense, Big Dog shot as high as 48% while scoring 20/6.

SJax has never been a high percentage scorer. He's more of a guy who comes down and shoots long distance shots.

Big Dog will get Rebounds. Sjax will not. SJax will play better defense, Grob will not. Neither are good ball handlers and should be kept away from handling the ball at all cost.

In a halfcourt offense, Grob would compliment a Low Post scorer.

In a transition offense, Sjax would fit in.

However, I would not put Grob into a transition offense nor would I put Jax on a team that is Halfcourt Low Post oriented.

[swolehawk2]

"Big Dog will get Rebounds. Sjax will not"

You act as if Big Dog is pulling down 10 boards a game...I think he avg. around 5 while Jax is at 4.

"Neither are good ball handlers and should be kept away from handling the ball at all cost."

Typical spin BS....what you should say but didn't want to say is that Jax is a way better ball handler than Dog..and that is sad because Jax could certainly improve.

If Jax wouldn't flourish in a halfcourt system...why would he have his best year in San Antonio...and why would they want to sign him to a multi year deal?

I think you under estimate how bad Dog's defense is...or you just don't want to admit it.

[Diesel]

Big Dog was a 20.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 43% shooting Sf.

Jax is a 15.3, 4.4 rpg, 41.3% shooting Sf.

Like I have told you over and over again. Had we had the right pieces in place, we could have been an awesome halfcourt team with Dog. However, we didn't. Kruger couldn't coach. JT is not a PG. Glover is far from a Shooter.

With Jax for most of the year, he has not been a great player either. He's a better defender... But that's all. He took ill-advised shots when we were in the halfcourt set. His shooting % is still horrid.

BUT...

If you are running, I would rather have Jax than Big Dog. However, if we were a halfcourt team with a pure PG... Give me Big Dog.

Stats don't lie. Stats don't aren't biased either.

I think you have allowed your bias to make you miss the big picture.

If we had a guard who brought the ball up, moved us into an offensive set and controlled the game, Big Dog/Reef would be a great Forward combo. However, JT doesn't read defenses, nor can he make inlet passes. All he does is pass off and set up for his shot. Not PGing.

[swolehawk2]

"Big Dog was a 20.8 ppg, 6.6 rpg, 43% shooting Sf.

Jax is a 15.3, 4.4 rpg, 41.3% shooting Sf."

So this is why Dog is a more complete basketball player than Jax?

I question your knowledge about the game...you talk about my bias...it is obvious that your bias allows you to make yourself look very ignaorant about the game.

we are not talking about JT or halfcourt teams or blah blah blah ...we are talking about the skills that these 2 players exhibit on the court....it is clear that Jax is the more complete player....because Dog just can't do all the things that Jax can do...if you believe that Dog can do more things on the court than Jax can do (defensively/ offensively/in transition...then you must have never played the game and really don't have a good understanding.

You stick to making up trades.

[Diesel]

Son please???

While you're sitting somewhere thinking...

There's no difference between 6.6 rebounds and 4.4 rebounds, knowledgeable fans know that there was only 2 legit Sfs who outrebounded Big Dog last yr. Marion and Lewis.

While you're sitting around thinking that 20.8 ppg means very little. The fact still remains that with the same team in the same position, Jax didn't approach 20.8 ppg.

While you think Big Dog had no value to the team. Real knowledgeable people know that Big Dog's game helped Reef's game. In fact, who was the main player who was concerned on the day that Big Dog was traded? Reef.

Who was it that said "my assists are down because I don't have Big Dog to do the pick and roll with". JT.

If you had the right PG and you gave this team the right direction, Big Dog and Reef would have been an awesome Forward combo. That's guaranteed.

However, Stotts never wanted to use Reef as a Half Court Low Post Forward... Even though Reef was scoring 20 and shooting 49% from the field. Stotts was more interested in trying to get Reef to run. That's why Reef is gone. That's why Jax/JT is here.

It's impossible Swole to look at a busted team and say that this player and that player are no good. It's like when Mash was in Miami playing for Riley. Mash looked like a scrub. Put Mash on a team where he can use his skills and last year he was a candidate for MVP.

The same with Big Dog. You can not put Big Dog on a tranistion team and hope that he will all the sudden become a running Sf. Neither can you expect Jax to develop into a rebounder.

You need to question your knowledge of the game... MR. "Stats don't matter". You would rather we look at players and say " Hey, i like the way he runs the floor." That tells me you don't know Sh..... about the game'

[swolehawk2]

I got your Son right here....

Do you see where you lack basketball knowledge...we keep going back to 20 and 6....but you fail to mention all the things that Dog is down right horrible at...like every other aspect of basketball.

Who was it that said "my assists are down because I don't have Big Dog to do the pick and roll with". JT.

You are such a [censored] hypocrite one minute you are accusing JT of not being a PG and having no court vision...then you blame the loss of Dog for his decrease in assists...this is same dude who says we are ready to start winning games one day and someone needs to be traded the next and you are quoting Jason Terry...u r a joke.

"Mash looked like a scrub"

Mash has never looked like a scrub...anybody who knows anything about the game...(which would not include you)

can tell what Mash can do on the floor no matter the team.

Jax didn't approach 20 ppg...well Dog has not played D on anybody in 8 years...guess what ...Jax avg. 15 and he plays D...Imagine that.... a player that can defend and score....and oh yeah he can dribble with out falling down....and since we are quoting people like JT...what is it that AI says about the great Big Dog....why was he begging Ayers for minutes and about to damn near cry on the bench.....and look at the stats this year... don't think Dog is averaging 20 and 6 .....but guess what he is still not guarding anybody.

Dog is done....Jax is the better player...so why don't you spend some time dreaming up a 8 team 17 player trade ...you seem to be good at that.

[swolehawk2]

"I don't see Diaw as somebody we must keep at all cost. I like his defense but he remains an offensive liability."

Could you have said something like that about Dog.

"I don't see Dog as somebody we must keep at all cost. I like his offense but he remains an defensive liability."

And you talk about my bias...LOL

Yet you judge the possible improvement in offensive production of a foreign 21 year old rookie in not even a complete season...

By the way.... he has great form on his jumpshot and has the chance to develop into a good shooter....he just needs to get comfortable taking more shots and he will.

[Diesel]

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Do you see where you lack basketball knowledge...we keep going back to 20 and 6....but you fail to mention all the things that Dog is down right horrible at...like every other aspect of basketball.

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Every player has flaws to his game. Every last one. It's the coaches and the GM's job to put their players in a position whereby, their flaws are not so evident. Big Dog has always been a bad defender, however, he has played on teams before Atlanta that didn't magnify his bad defense by putting him with other equally bad defenders. By that same token, Toni Kukoc has always been a bad defender. However, when he was playing with MJ and the Bulls, did anybody say.. That Kukoc is a horrible defender? Paul Pierce is a bad shooter compared to other 2/3s, however, is the fact that he shoots right at or less than 40% the thing you notice when you talk about Pierce. Tim Duncan and Tony Parker are really bad FT shooters. However, when people talk about MVP, does that ever come up? Peja is as bad a defender as Big Dog. If you ever watched the Kings play, you can see Peja pull an olay about 4 times a game. However, nobody mentions that when they talk about Peja... Antoine Walker is one of the worst three point shooters in the league and he keeps chucking... Yet people talk about how he is the most improved player playing....

My point is that every player has something that they cannot do well. The coaches job is to put them in a position where what they cannot do well is not on display. For instance, Kruger was infamous in putting the ball in big Dog hands and expect him to make something happen. Kruger and Stotts was good for putting the ball in Reefs hand on the perimeter having him to shoot. That's not their strong suit. Stotts was trying to run a motion offense with players who didn't move without the ball?? Reef is a post up PF. He has Post up Moves. That's what he does. Grob is a stand still shooter. He's not a ball handler. He gets his spot, waits for the pass, drains the shot. Stotts and Kruger are trying to run motion offenses with these guys? Talking about displaying their weaknesses. 2nd. The GM is suppose to surround his players with other players that compliment them and cover for their weaknesses. Some of you wonder why Theo has gone to PTL and blown up. He wasn't holding back here. The answer is that he has teammates that fit him better. He has a PF who is strong and can rebound and defend. When Miles is on the floor, he has another athletic defender who can help him in rotations. However here, the most help Theo had was Diaw. The point is that Babcock did Grob no favors putting him on a team with a PG who couldn't run the offense. A SG who couldn't shoot. And three other defensive liabilities.

So back to the kind of player that Grob is. yes, he has flaws. So do ALL players, however, if you put him in the right system on the right team, he's allstar material.

[Diesel]

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Mash has never looked like a scrub...anybody who knows anything about the game...(which would not include you)

can tell what Mash can do on the floor no matter the team.

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Talking about a lack of basketball knowledge... You just are ignorant of the truth....

http://espn.go.com/nba/columns/bucher_ric/1507391.html

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Hornets forward Jamal Mashburn, last one off the bench in the Eastern Conference's losing cause, said: "I think I probably got the most."

He wasn't talking about the six pairs of vintage Jordan shoes and box of All-Star gear he collected as personal keepsakes. He was referring to all he gained from having a long, difficult journey culminate with an invitation to Atlanta. After a nine-year trek that included a start in Dallas derailed by turmoil and jealousy,

a demotion to role-player status in Miami

and season-squashing health problems last season with the Hornets, Mashburn had his first All-Star experience.

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The story of Mash in Miami is a sad one. Mash is one of the best ball handling Sfs in the game. Riley made Mash sit on the three point line and wait to shoot. He was demoted from being a top scorer from his old team to being voshon Lenard #2. When he was traded for Jones, the experts said that Charlotte got Mashburn as a consolation. He was a throw in.

Boy, your basketball knowledge is lacking.

[Diesel]

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You are such a [censored] hypocrite one minute you are accusing JT of not being a PG and having no court vision...then you blame the loss of Dog for his decrease in assists..

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Swole, how many times can you be so wrong. I believe that JT lacks courtvision. In fact, I know he does. He's not a PG. However, when asked why his assist went from 7.5 apg last year to ~4 apg this year. JT SAID it was because he didn't have Big Dog to play pick and roll with.

Now, how does a JT statement (about assists) make ME a hypocrite.

Swole this is another example of you just not knowing what's going on?

Do you even know what it means to be hypocritical? It's just a word you thought sounded good when you heard other people use and you say, I'll call Diesel that...

Well, You make me laugh Swole " Mr Grown ass man".

[Diesel]

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Jax didn't approach 20 ppg...well Dog has not played D on anybody in 8 years...guess what ...Jax avg. 15 and he plays D...Imagine that.... a player that can defend and score....color:red] and oh yeah he can dribble with out falling down..

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As of right now....

Jax 2.65 turnovers per game.

BD 2.55 turnovers per game.

Jax 41.9% FG%

BD 45% FG%.

Jax 32.8% from three.

BD 34.3% from three.

Seems to me like Big Dog is doing less falling down with the ball than Jax?

[

[JTFan31]

Yes you nailed it cyman, he wants to get paid for the work he does. And one thing I admit, Jax comes out to play every night, he hustles, he never stand around, he plays with emotions and heart and that is what I like most about him, he plays 100% every play. He is skilled and has a good outside shot, he can definitely take the ball to the hole and has very good court vision, he also plays intense defense......he is a keeper.

[swolehawk2]

So this article is what made you call Jamal Mashburn a scrub.....so what you saw of Mash at Kentucky and Dallas ...you still think he was a scrub at any moment in his career...because he had trouble in Miami...he lost all his skills ....is this what you are saying?

See you are missing the point.... judge the player from what skills he displays as a basketball player on the court.

If it took an article to let you know that Jamal is or isn't a very versatile SF with many skills....if it takes what the media says "experts said that Charlotte got Mashburn as a consolation. He was a throw in."

See this is where you lack bball IQ...Diesel you throw out all the things you saw Mash do in college and at Dallas because some kind of expert ..many who never even touched a basketball in an organized setting" said he was a throw in.

We are talking about basketball skills here....I don't need any experts to see that KG can do it all on the court and Darvin Ham...can do nearly nothing....get my point genius?

[swolehawk2]

That was an excuse that JT used....he is full of them...the truth is JT can't create scoring opportunities for his team mates ....the point I was making is that if JT had PG skills losing big dog would not affect his assists at all hell he was just set somebody else up for easy baskets and assists....

That statement makes you hypocritical because it is really not the fact that Dog left that JT's assists went down despite the excuse he uses ...it is the fact he doesn't have vision.... how many times has he blown 2 on 1s and 3 on 2s this year Diesel...those are assists...blown assists...watch a game.

Don't bash JT as a PG then take the excuse that his assists

are down because of one player leaving.

Hell he can't even make great post passes....yet his assists are down because Dog left ....look below the surface Diesel...his assists are down because he is not a good enough PG to keep them up.

I see that you like stats Diesel...so here is something to think about.

Mike Bibby, who I would say is MAYBE a little be better than an average PG.

Last year Webber played 67 games and he avg. 23 pts...following me here big guy....Bibby played 55 and avg. 5.2 assists.

This year Webber has not played at all and Bibby is avg. 5.6 assists

See his assists didn't go down with Webber off the court.

So don't be out smarted by JT....if JT would make good passes in transition and learn how to feed the post or hit a cutter...the assists wouldn't be a problem...but you knew JT had all these PG flaws didn't you...you, just in this one instance, decided to over look them and to buy into what JT is selling you in the papers right?

Hell he can't even make good post passes....yet his assists are down because Dog left ....look below the surface Diesel...his assists are down because he is not a good enough PG to keep them up.

And for the statement guestioning my vocabulary....do we need to compare SAT or GRE scores...or have a spelling bee..or do you want to compare degrees?

Funny

[swolehawk2]

So besides mid range shooting...what does Dog do well on the court?

We are talking about WHO IS THE MORE COMPLETE PLAYER....damn are you comprehending?

We are not talking about hiding players flaws on the court...on putting them in postitions to be better....I said Jax is a more complete player than Dog...I didn't say thet Jax did everything better than Dog ...I said Jax's game is more complete....Defensively/Offensively/In transition he exhibits more skill on the floor than Dog does....what have you said to dispute that?

[swolehawk2]

"Jax is a player that can defend and score"

You forgot to say anything about defense again Diesel...or do you need stats to determine if a guy can play d.

Once again ...we are talking more complete game...this includes many skills not just offensive.

Answer some questions for me...humor me a little?

Which has the more complete basketball game or is the more complete basketball player?

Shaq or KG

T-Mac or Kobe

J Kidd or AI

SAR or Kurt Thomas