Hawks and Kenyon Martin?

[sinctybldh]

Chad Ford has reported that it seems like the Hawks will give a max offer to Kenyon Martin. What is everyone's take on this? Is he worth it?

[Derek]

BK doesn't need to offer Martin a max contract.

[ATLien_]

I wouldn't be crushed if we did since his max is 12 million, but I think its a bad idea. We are not really a win now team.

On the postive side I like the intensity and work ethic that Martin brings to the game. If it can rub off on our rookies it would be nice.

We argue on the Falconsroost all the time about what a player is worth. When it comes down to it the market will determine what Martin is worth. If other teams are offering him the max then he is worth the max because thats what the market has decided. Just like when you buy a house the demand and supply determines the value of the home.

People like Kmart are in demand I suppose and there are not many players like him.

Personally I like Kenyon, but will he be happy is my concern. The good thing about him is I see no reason for his trade value to drop if it doesn't work out.

[Packfill]

It is a lot of money for a player who cannot really care a franchise. But, he does bring something that recent hawks team have been missing - intensity. He would be a good influence on the younger guys in that respect, particularly if he gets after a guy like Josh Smith. Maybe he can make Terry walk the walk also. A wily veteran would be nice to keep K-Mart in check though.

[KB21]

Well, the one thing that will hold down his trade value will be the contract if he tops out as a guy who gets you 17 ppg and around 10 rpg. A max contract for that production is too much, IMO.

Martin averaged 16.7 ppg and 9.5 rpg last season. Both were career highs, if I'm not mistaken. His career numbers are 15.1 ppg, 7.6 rpg, 2.4 apg, 1.28 spg, 1.36 bpg, 2.37 topg, .467 FG%, .663 FT%, and .219 3P%.

To give him a max contract, it sends the message that he's the guy you want to build the team around. IMO, Martin is not a player you build a team around, but rather a player you add to an established star player. Martin isn't going to create his own offense, and up until last season, he hasn't proven to be a dominant rebounder.

IMO, Stromile Swift for around half the money is a better option. I believe that, if given the minutes, Swift will at least put up the numbers that Kenyon Martin achieves.

[TheDude]

well it's too much money in my opinion, but I won't be upset if we did it for the reasons ATLien mentioned... i would agree also that a respected veteran would be nice to have to keep him calm if things weren't going well..

the one thing i think alot of us aren't thinking is that I feel that Kenyon is going to get better. He's still very young and has played in a system where he hasn't been relied on to have a great post up or shooting game. So I feel he'll also continue to progress..

But I really feel he could have a great affect on our rookies, Josh Smith in particular. Josh Smith could easily go either way. He could curl up and give up or he could put effort forth and dominate the league. Kenyon would help with the latter.

[Sage11]

He is not a franchise player, a role player at best, under optimal conditions (such as playing with Kidd and Jefferson). I have never been impressed with his O game and on D I am not impressed either. NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO he is not worth it.

[sturt]

Pros:

- At some point, to be competitive for the holy grail, you've got to add that player who was top 3 in his draft class.

- I agree w/ Doc... you've got to keep in mind that KMart is going to be on the incline for another 3-5 years. There are plenty of examples of PFs like KMart who didn't really distinguish themselves for the first few years as a pro, but blossomed very suddenly... CWebb leaps to mind, and I know you could think of others.

Cons:

- I wouldn't sink my biggest wad of dough into the PF position even if it were Karl Malone in his prime... in fact KM is living proof that as good as a PF might be, it's very difficult to compose a championship team with the star at that position.

Discussion:

There's no good alternative here.

This FA market is great for teams that need that one something to get them over the top, but lousy for a team like ours, namely b/c Kobe apparently is unreachable... his is the only talent that fits our situation.

We could wait for next year's FA market, and sign just a decent player or two, knowing that we're probably looking at our 6th lottery in 6 years, and mostly saving our cash for next year.

And personally, I've always applauded the patient, slow growth approach.

But maybe the goal for now is not to truly pursue the championship, but just to get the Hawks back to the days of Mookie, Smitty and Deke, when we could depend on going to the playoffs.

I don't like that, frankly, b/c I remember all too well how frustrating it was to watch a team that could never be good enough to reach the pinnacle, but never be bad enough to acquire a superior player in the draft.

But it's not my money. And I'd think the new owners are anxious just to ascend out of the NBA basement, sell a few more tickets, and pay the bills.

KMart gives them something to market, and at least holds the possibility that he can play an integral part in bringing the Hawks back to a level of respectability.

[OGRat]

I really don't care what his market value is. The Hawks are not ready to pay that kind of money to anyone who is not a true franchise player.

[Lascar78]

the more I think about it and the more I think we will be getting KMart at or near a max contract. I don't see any reason to believe Memphis won't match on Swift. And I doubt we get Foyle or Dampier. Which basically leaves us at KMart or nothing for this offseason.

I don't think BK has ANY problem not getting free agents this year and waiting til next year. But would be waiting for pieces that are so much better than KMart or so much cheaper? I think not. If we were to give KMart a big contract, even at or near the max, we would still have room left. Hendu and CC alone would give us 12 Million in relief I believe.

The question is which is more likely to happen:

-without KMart, we basically have JT, CHildress, Diaw and 4-5 other young players including Smith, and we're looking to get a true superstar next year

-JT , childress, Diaw, Kenyon as our core with extra youth and draft picks coming in, and we look to get either a true superstar or another good star to complement all of this.

I'm thinking option 2 is more likely to work out for us at this point. But again, I'm not 100% sold and this is mere speculation. It just seems like KMart is looking more and more like he's in our future

[Sage11]

You raise very good points. This is why I am not big on pursuing K-mart or Kobe.

We add them to the team, break the bank, raise ticket prices and hope the team can make the playoffs with one star and disposable parts.

I endured the "just make the playoffs years" and detest the thought of going back to them. I want a champion, not mereley a contender. Lets grow a champion and then add the piece that takes us over the top. The cons are we may see the lottery for the sixth straight year, but I am more willing to see a growing team than to watch a subpar team that prevents us from improving by squeaking into the playoffs and out by the first round.

I like the road we are on and the types of players we are acquiring. I don't see K-Mart as being much of a difference maker and Kobe would saddle this team with his asking price.

We must go about rebuilding another way.... A smarter way.

[Final_quest]

Someone earlier was posting that Kenyon's value would be set by the market. From the buzz I've heard Utah, Denver, and New Jersey are all willing to offer the max. New Jersey is just waiting to see what offer sheet Kenyon will sign and then try to match it. Actually I've read that New Jersey is contemplating dealing Kidd just to keep Martin. According to the market he is a max player.

I say if we have an opportunity to sign Kmart to a max offer sheet we should do it.

A. He is a top five power forward, maybe the top in the east.

B. Don't the Hawks want to sell tickets. No other attainable FA would do it better than Kmart

C. He would be a part of building a winning team. His deal would be for six years, not 2 or 3. What could the Hawks be like in 3 years with him, much better than without him.

D. Think about next years free agents. With Henderson and Crawford coming off the books we could still sign a big name next year. Also if we don't sign star players this summer, which players are gonna want to come next year.

E. Why should the Hawks overpay to bring in Blount, Swift, or Etan Thomas? I know they would sign for less than Martin, but we would still have to overpay for them. Why not slightly overpay for Kmart, he is a better talent.

Kmart will be signed to a max deal. The Hawks should be so lucky to be the team to sign him. I can't believe people are debating this. Max player does not necessarily mean your franchise player. Many teams have 2-3 players signed to max deals. The fans are debating whether we should do this or not, but I don't think we could get it done if we wanted to. Kmart will sign with either Denver or New Jersey for the max.

[Packfill]

I am still not sure K-Mart is worth the max, but Final-quest makes some good arguments that he is. Most importantly is the impact it might have on next years free agent class - Martin plus a lot of young developing players would be an attractive situation for a Ray Allen or other big name player.

[tmac13]

I hope we do offer KMart a max contract, and I still doubt we get him because other teams will also offer it..It sends a signal that we are serious about winning..I see alot of posts about how Kidd makes KMart or how Swift can give us the same at half the cost..That is crap..Swift can't even beat out Lo Wright for a starting position..He is NOT a smart basketball player, and plays with nowhere near the intensity of KMart..That is the same as saying if Swift logged as many minutes as Ben Wallace their numbers would be comparable, you have to account for the intangibles that make players like Wallace and KMart so valuable...And someone please tell me what Kidd ever won BEFORE he had KMart..He was always surrounded by talent and NEVER won anything..KMarts intensity helped Kidd as much as Kidds passing helped KMart.Kmart is a guy that is respected by players around the league and will help draw other free agents. We don't have to be awful ..Our young guys can develope while we improve...KMarts intensity and toughness are contagious..Who do you want Josh playing against everyday in practice, KMart or Swift?..Planning on being bad and rebuilding through lottery picks is a losers game..A few teams get lucky but most don't.

[Traceman]

I would offer him a 6 yr/$75 million deal starting at $10 million/season for all the reasons you just listed. Winning teams need guys like K-Mart and I think he is alot better than people give him credit for.

He is NOT a franchise player but he would be a very good player with or without J Kidd. Like you said, how many big games did Kidd win before he teamed up with K-Mart? K-Mart is able to do things at the PF position that most guys simply aren't athletic enough (or tough enough) to do.

Defensively, he has few peers in the entire NBA, let alone at his position. He locked down almost every big name PF he faced last year. What a HUGE difference it would be having him than Reef on D. The thing that kills me is that most of the board didn't want to trade Reef last year despite the fact that he will make $14.6 million this year. Yet those same folks are unwilling to offer K-Mart even $10 million next season? I just don't get it.

[Wretch]

But I say that half heartedly. I respect K-Mart's game and I would LOVE to have him in Atl. He's energetic, quick, and rough. Every team needs an enforcer and Kenyon is that type of player.

His numbers, however, just don't justify that kind of spending. The problem is mostly timing. A team like Dallas would pay him the max in a heartbeat...a team like Atlanta is still trying to figure out what it is. In 2 or 3 years, we may know exactly what we need, but Martin's max deal could potentially cripple us - think Houston, Brian Grant, Antoine Walker, Eddie Jones. Productive players that, if were paid half of what they are making would give certain teams SO much flexibility.

I don't want to be the next team shopping the newest unmoveable commodity. Max contracts are for sure things. They are for the guaranteed impact players - Garnett, Duncan, Kobe, Shaq, McGrady... They are not for players that you HOPE will become the next big thing. There are better options. It just takes patience and better gambling.

[Diesel]

We have roughly 20 million to spend. we get 11 of it to Martin. It doesn't look so bad for this year. We may still sign Foyle, Collier, and Pryz and maybe we can make a run at Jax....

Best case scenerio:

JT/J-Chill/Jax/Martin/Foyle.

At best, this is a team that can get to the playoffs, but won't stand a chance against Detroit, Indy, or Memphis...

Unless there is a trade for JT that brings a better PG, I say this is a very bad move for the future.

[Sage11]

I agree totally. Very well said.

[Wretch]

If we dealt JT, then it'd be like picking up 4 - 5 million in salary... Still doesn't justify giving K-Mart the max, but surely takes some of the sting out of it. Just throwing that out there for sh#t's sake.

[jezmund]

That is an interesting way of looking at it. Would you rather have JT and say Adonal Foyle or Kenyon Martin. Definitely K-Mart looking at it that way. We will never win with JT as one of our main components. I do believe Martin can be a part of a winning team, though.