Hawks and Kenyon Martin?

[Final_quest]

I think you make a good argument Wretch. It really is a close call. Kmart is not an elite player like Duncan or McGrady is. To me he is totally worth it for our franchise's situation. I would take exception to what you said about not being sure who might be better Swift or Kmart. It seems clear at this point that Kmart is the supreme talent, but you never know. I just don't want to see the Hawks sign Swift for 7-8 million, Foyle for 5-6 million, if we could have Kmart.

The other wildcard to me is the next CBA. Now I have no premonition about this, but it seems like the players got a bad deal last go around. What if things open up more for players to get big contracts again. If you're Tim Duncan wouldn't you be upset to realize that under the old CBA, the one Shaq and Garnett signed under, he could have signed for $30 million per. What if the players get a huge salary cap increase? Kmart might have been a steal at $11 million in retrospect.

[Diesel]

The Best way for a team like ours to rebuild is just like Denver... BY Wise drafting and wise spending.

Denver made their team through wise draft.

Two of their major components, Mello and Nene' are from the draft. Their other components, Miller is a FA acquisition.

What they have done is let their wise drafting pay the dividens. NOW FAs would play for Denver and NOT look to be overpaid because Denver is a young team that can win.

Us pulling Martin is a Babcock move. Especially if there's no cap space left after we get him. We have hamstrung our future. I would consider getting Swift.

Now, here's the beauty...

If we get Swift, he doesn't pan out and Martin goes back to NJ for the qualifier, we will still be in position to get Martin next year.

However, if we get Swift and he does pan out... We can use our money next year to go after another player or to broker some trades. The money = Flexibility.

[emeans]

Good Post. I totally agree with Wretch. We are in a rebuilding mold and we really don't know what we have so far until we get on the court and see. So we have to cautiously spend in the FA market and not overspend like we have done under Babcocks regime.

Kenyon is not worth a max contract. Kobe is but Kenyon is not.

[GDawg]

Kenyon is not a superstar player, and we can't build our team around him. That means he is not a max player.

[Sage11]

[might help that signing to come to pass(?).]

I sure hope so....I think we need him.

[Lascar78]

well they aren't a 3 man team. They just made smart moves across the board.Getting camby paid off (who knew!), getting barry, lenard, boykins... were all good moves. They drafted smart and were able to get seasoned role players where they could.

[Weez]

to sort our your line ofreasoning,that is, regarding giving guys the max thataren't good enough to "carry theteam," you have to subtract any player thatwas given the max prior to the new cba. (see Antawn Jamison).

were you against what the Suns did with the Matrix two years ago? certain players brin intangilbes to the table, and imo, what KMart brings is hard to ignore, the intensity. Is he atmax player on talent? no. but his intensity and desire, combined with skills sets and current team needs(a plyaer who wants it, is at least all-star calibre year in and yearout for years to come) counters tha.

is he worth it? no. bu he might be worth it, to us.

[CHORO44]

Quote:

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Whether it's 8 million for Hendu, 7 million for Mo Taylor, 3 million for Chris Crawford, or 16 million to Alan Houston. It's a waste of a precious cap space. Big spending teams that are looking to go over the top can afford to take on contracts like that. These are teams that are pretty much set and know exactly what they need. For a team trying to rebuild, the last thing that you want to do is hand someone a max contract without knowing that they are indeed a max player.

Regardless of what teams were paying under the old CBA, the new agreement has set a limit on player salaries. This maximum salary currently eats up 1/4 of a team's yearly payroll - that's a huge chunk. You don't pay that to good players, you pay that for

great players

. Unless the league agrees during negotions to eliminate that cap on player salaries, this isn't going to change. KG might be making upwards of 28 million per year, but that doesn't change his value to a team under the new CBA. If KG were the same player, hell even if he averaged 50 ppg and 20 rpg, if he were drafted into the new CBA he will get no more than the league max.

Bottom line: Kenyon Martin isn't worth half of 30 million and KG, regardless of his ridiculous deal (that sparked changes in the CBA), would get no more than the league maximum now.

All that being said, regardless of how much cap space they have, the Hawks are not in a position to overpay for free agents. We need to build this team, draft wisely, develop our talent, and approach free agency cautiously - unless there is a sure thing available for the max.

There are very few players that are worth a maxium salary and right now, Kenyon Martin is not one of them.

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I agree with Wretch on this one. I'm sick of hearing that the Hawks should do this because that's how the league works. Pay guys Max contracts because the real Max guys are already signed. This is how you end up in cap hell with a mediocre player and the inability to resign your one or two rookies that become something special. I wish franchises would stop competing with one another and giving the wrong guys big deals: Eddie Jones, Brian Grant, etc.

Also for people saying it's better to sign one guy at the Max instead of two guys at less than Max I disagree in most scenarios. If you have two guys like Swift and Foyle at 6 million each you can trade them individually where as the Max guy will need two to three contracts to get him. If he isn't worth three players you never move him ala Eddie Jones.

We need to keep drafting wisely and pay guys that could develop into Max(franchise) players not guys that think they are. I still don't think Ray Allen, Reef, Eddie Jones, and some others are Max players because they still have holes in their game.

[Traceman]

I'm sorry but I just don't see how you can even begin talking about overpaying for someone and then suggest that Foyle is worth $6 M a season. What has he EVER done to warrant such a contract? The guy is 30 and he has never been able to even play starters minutes, let alone put up even decent numbers. If we sign Foyle and give him a dime over $4M a season (that is STILL too much for me, I'd rather see us start at $3.5 M), we are making a big mistake. Pryzbilla could give us what we get from Foyle for probably around $2 M a season.

[jezmund]

I have to agree with you on that. Kenyon Martin, whether worth 10-11M or not, is a difference maker. I'm pretty sure Adonal Foyle is not.

[Diesel]

It's easier to pay foyle 3 yrs 19 million than it is to pay Martin 6 years 84 million. A helluva lot easier.

#1, Foyle is a shot blocker who rebounds well.

#2, the salary suggests no expection of Foyle to be THE TEAM.

#3, Foyle is a C who is 6'11 250 and runs the floor well.

Whereas when you pay Kmart 6 years 84 million, you have hamstrung the team FOR YEARs and there is an expectation that Kmart will be able to carry the team. However, what do you do when Kmart's numbers start to look like Caffey's?

[Traceman]

You are worried that K-Mart might start to look like Caffey in 6 years (why, Caffey has NEVER looked anywhere near as good as K-Mart) yet what about what Foyle looks like RIGHT NOW? The guy has averaged a whopping 4.4 ppg, 4.9 rbg and 1.9 bpg over the last 3 years and you would give him $6 M a season? Good grief! I KNOW Pryz would give me that much over the next 3 seasons for a heck of a lot less than $6 M.

None of the things you say about Foyle come anywhere near justifying a $6 M a season salary. He is a good shotblocker, he is an average rebounder and Deke is better on offense. $6 M a season might not say that you should carry the team but it says that you need to have been more productive than Foyle has for his career. Give me Turkoglu and Arroyo for my $6 M. You keep Foyle.

[Diesel]

Foyle looking like Foyle with a 3 year 19 million deal or Swift looking like Swift with a 5 year 36 million dollar deal is nothing compared to Kmart looking just average with a 6 year 84 million dollar deal.

The good news is that Kmart is just using us to make NJ match. The good news is that NJ is just using us so that they don't have to sign Kmart for 104 million. However, if something goes wrong, we don't have a Jason Kidd to make Kmart look better. I'd take Swift at less than half the price.

[jezmund]

I say we just let all the high-priced players go to other teams. If we could be seriously in the running for Ginobili at just around 7M than I'd throw a 6yr/45M at him. If not.... I wouldn't mind throwing a little bit of money at a solid PG (Arroyo?) and a player like Turkoglu as long as it is not breaking the bank. We can match any offers to Pryz and Rebracca I believe so that's good. Won't have to overpay for those guys.

[Diesel]

I agree, but at the same time, I wouldn't pass up Swift.... I think Swift fits the mold that knight is making and though we are in the midst of a rebuild, we still want to be competitive.

FAs I would take:

Arroyo/Swift/Pryz/Collier/Anderson.

Players I would trade:

JT/Diaw for Howard/Fortston/Harris.

JT for Nelson/Gooden/Pollard (via Indy).

JT to Houston for Mo Taylor/1st (2005 Unprotected).

JT to Indy for Harrington/Pollard.

Diaw/1st to Washington for Kwame.

JT to the Lakers for Rush/Medvelenko.

JT to PTL for Dale Davis/1st (2005 Unprotected).

[jezmund]

I like the Indiana and the Portland deals. Basically, you get a good young player or draftpicks for JT is good. No long contracts or players with bad attitudes.

[Final_quest]

OK this is getting unbelievable. So many people on this board want to pay bench warmers $6 million, but don't want to pay a top talent $10-11 million. Foyle's deal is not 3 years, it is 5 at $41.6 million. That's over 8 million a year after it's all said and done. Also we cannot sign Kmart for 6 years at $84 million, only the Nets can sign for $14 million a year. Our deal would be for about $65 million. Who do you think is more tradeable a proven commodity like Kmart or a nobody like Foyle?

Also how much do you think Swift will sign for if Foyle is getting that much? It won't be 5 years for $35 million, and Ginobli will end up getting over $8 million at least.

In this FA year the man for the Hawks is Kmart. He fills a position of need at a little over what he is worth, and he brings star power and respectability. He may even become a true max player when all is said in done. Hawks fans don't believe that building a winning team is signing mediocre talent at above average salaries. With Blount, Foyle, Swift, and Okur that is what you are getting. The one guy who seems like he might be worth the money this year, aside from Kobe, is Kmart. If we are the team to sign him we should be popping champagne bottles. But most of the people on this board think they can sign all these players for $5 million a year when they are getting $8 million dollar deals. Pay attention to the FA market, and realize where the value is. We can't be so cautious about spending money that we don't sign any talent.

The Hawks fans on this board believe in the fear of overpaying for a star, more than the hope of fielding a talented team. That is a loser's mentality. I have more hope in signing Kmart to a big contract than signing Swift for $8 million a year or signing Jason Collier, Rebraca, or Pryzbilla. We have over $18 million in cap space this year and another $12 million coming next year, signing Kmart is not going to ruin this franchise. Playing not to lose is the bigger risk to me.

[Weez]

cap wise, yo'ure right. but most, if not all, would agree that Martin is exactly the type of plyaer you need and want on a championship team, sorta like Shawn Marion. If you lock him up for that long, then you have him after the "rebuilding" is supposedly done, and he'd be in his prime throughout the contract.

plus, sorta like Sheed, I would wager that his value remains constant throughout the contract...even if it's only to "the right team." As stated, he brings certain intangibles that's needed on winning teams. they would more than likely take the risk, if he later needed to be "on the block" for us...

[Packfill]

Given the size and length of the deals some of these guys are getting - i.e., Nash, Okur, Foyle, possibly Ginobili, etc. - giving Kmart a max deal is making more and more sense.

Final Quest and Weez have correctly pointed out that Martin fills a huge need both on the court and off the court for the Hawks. He gives the team some credibility.

The other important impact such a signing would have is its impact on the young players. Without another experienced/talented veteran, the Hawks are going to lose 60+ games next year. That will have a negative impact on the development of our young players. See Chicago Bulls as an example. With K-mart's attitude and defense inside plus Terry's shooting outside, with some timely play by the young guys, the Hawks can at least win 35+ games with something to build on for the 2005-06 season.

[CHORO44]

Signing Foyle for 3 years 18 million is a no brainer to me. Shotblocking centers with size that can run the floor are hard to find and will always warrant more money than other positions. For those of you saying Foyle's contract is horrible you must realize that the final year at 10 million is voidable by Golden State.

I don't think you can judge Foyle until this year as this will be the first year he can start without Dampier or injuries in the way. I'm not saying he's the greatest but he fits our need more than Kenyon. We have enough length in the perimeter that we require some size down low to hold the other team's post players.

In short I don't want to pay Kenyon the Max.