Hawks and Kenyon Martin?

[Wretch]

It is SOOOOO not important for these kids to get out there and win right now. EVERYBODY loses. The guys that are drafted high are the best players in the league, but they come to the WORST teams. Unless they are the type of player like Shaq or David Robinson that can turn a team around overnight, then there will be MUCH losing going on.

Losing doesn't stop players from becoming good or great; nor does it keep a team from winning in the future. In the end, it is the players that have to determine their own destiny. Either they are capable of winning or they are not. But they must first be allowed to develop. You can't have both. It just doesn't work.

Honestly, we need to not get ahead of ourselves and just give these guys enough time and space to grow. If we can sign Kenyon for a decent deal, then go for it. If he wants too much, let him go and keep an eye out for the future. You don't know who we'll be drafting next year, who will be available in the years to come, what our players will become, or what we may trade to get what we may need.

Just let our players develop before we start talking about what we need to compliment them with.

[Packfill]

Foyle is getting $40, not $18. I would take Foyle for $18 over three years as well. Forty over 5 is a different story, especially given his injury history.

[DominiqueWilkins]

I'd much rather pay Kenyon Martin 10 Million anyday of the week, instead of paying Foyle 6 million.

No question about that!!

[DominiqueWilkins]

I hope he comes across a billboard that reads....Welcome K-Mart, but the Max isn't in your future.

[Packfill]

Even if childress turns in Tracy McGrady he is not going to win anything without a talented front court.

The Bulls and Clippers are great examples of teams which are/were stockpiled with high draft picks and talented youngsters. Neither team, despite 3-4 years worth of development have been able to improve because of the lack of leadership. When I say leadership I mean someone who can show the way on the court and in the locker room. The Buls with Crawford, Curry and Chandler have amounted to nothing as a team and each has underachieved individually, failing to live up to expectations. Over the past several years the Clippers have had young talents such as Magette, Richardson, Miles, Olakawadi, etc. but have not had a winning season because they lack the necessary veteran presence and leadership.

No lets look at Cleveland, with young stars Lebron, Boozer, Wagner, etc. They made a playoff run this year because they made a trade for veteran leadership, i.e., Williams and Battie. Indiana turned over a veteran ladden roster a few years ago by getting rid of the Davis' and adding youngsters O'Neil, Harrington, Bender and Tinsley. The team was able to continue to win because the remaining veterans on the roster were able to bridge the learning curve.

The Hawks currently have no leadership in place. A good coach can help with the youngsters development, but you also need some on the court that can give someone a kick in the ass every now and then to work harder. Martin could do that for the hawks.

I am not suggesting that the Hawks need to win now, or even next year. But by adding the right veteran presence - Martin or someone else - you are establishing a foundation and mental approach to the game which will result in victories two and three years down the road.

[Final_quest]

As Herman Edwards said a couple of years ago, "You play to win the game!" That being said the Hawks, if lucky, would be a 7 or 8 seed at best. This season is about building, but the question is what is the best way to build. We could totally tank this season, and play Collier, Pryzbilla, Rebraca, and who ever else in the post. My question is why waste a season playing individuals who will most likely NEVER develop into quality NBA starters?

Childress, J Smith, and Diaw have that potential. I have no problem playing them. Why waste a season developing them without a true low post presence? We have two positions on this team unaccounted for power forward and center. If Childress, Diaw, and the Smiths have Kmart to take on double teams and score in the post, I think that would improve their game tremendously. If you're going to throw the rookies in the fire at least give them a life boat. Also, this would be the beginning of a new team nucleus. After three years, a couple more drafts, and more free agents come in, what could the Hawks look like? This sounds like playing to win.

This is probably my fourth or fifth post about why the Hawks should sign Martin. I would much rather have Shaq, Duncan, or Garnett of course. Kmart does not compare to these guys, but he just happens to be the best player available. If we can sign him let's do it.

[DominiqueWilkins]

Rasheed Wallace

or

Kenyon Martin

???????????????

[Lascar78]

Sheed is more talented, martin has more desire and is younger. I take Martin at this point in their careers

[Diesel]

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OK this is getting unbelievable. So many people on this board want to pay bench warmers $6 million, but don't want to pay a top talent $10-11 million.

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First off, whoever said Kmart was top talent. He's not Kobe.

Secondly....

I would rather pay Swift 36 million than to pay Kmart 84 Million... You damn right.

Kmart's contract would average 14 million over all and by the time Kmart is in the 6th year, he'd be making 19 million dollars.

Kmart is not a franchise player.

[Diesel]

Look at the Bulls again...

Cartwright was put into a position where he had Youth, but he also had a mandate to win now. So what happened was Youth went to the Bench and Marshall and Rose went out on the floor to win games.

Look at the Cavs again....

Silas had a mandate to develop the youth. Not to win. Look what happen. King James and Boozer went on the floor and Ricky Davis and Miles were traded for getting in the way.

It all depends on the mandate, with this team, it seems like the mandate is DVELOP!

[Packfill]

Cartwright did not have a mandate to win - he had a mandate to develop the young players but got canned because he did not give them enough playing time (although, I think he got the short end of the stick because he inherited a fundamentally flawed roster - i.e., one without veteran leadership).

Silas was given a mandate to build around LeBron. Trading for VETERANS Williams and Battie was a deal done solely with the intention of putting veteran leaders around Lebron so that he could develop IN THE PROPER ENVIRONMENT.

[Diesel]

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In a statement released this morning, Paxson said:

“I knew there would be difficult times in this job, but none is harder than replacing a friend. I have known Bill Cartwright as a teammate, as a colleague and as a friend for nearly as long as I’ve been in professional basketball. I admire his hard work and his efforts and loyalty here. He will always be a Bull.

The decision to relieve Bill at this time was a basketball decision.

The team is underperforming and we have to find ways to win, period.

I am not satisfied with the team’s start this season and changes have to be made. This represents the first change, but not necessarily the last.”

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The mandate was to WIN... Not to develop...

[Packfill]

Nobody could win with that team. Paxson is offering window dressing for the fact that two (now three) coaches have been unable to sufficiently develop their young talent. It won't happen without proper leadership. Rose and Marshall are not the type of veterans youn want nuturing young players, they are too me first oriented. At least now they may have some hope that Hinrich, as he gains experience, may be able to lead the Bulls back to mediocrity and beyond.

All I am saying is that the Hawks have the potential to be historically bad with out some competent front court players. Remember, at least last year we had Jackson who was throwing down 25 points a game. Without him, who will score? No Sura likely either. Without them, the teams inability to score will almost as tragic as its inability to stop anyone in the paint.

I want the young guys to develop, but I think their development will be helped by the addition of a low post presence. Martin is not perfect for this, but he will have to do. His real value is in the locker room and with attitude. Swift may be able to match his production, but unless he has a fire lit under him he will not match Kmart's intensity. Swift would be nice at a reasonable deal, but I would prefer Kmart at 10 or 12 then Swift at 6 or 8.

[Final_quest]

I agree that Kmart is not an elite player like Kobe is. I said that earlier. When I say top talent I mean all-star, on the olympic team, and rebounding and scoring in double figures. We have cap space for a reason, to use it. If you want to overpay for Swift, how much do you think that will be for? It wouldn't be 6 years for $36 million. If A Foyle gets 5 years at $42 million. The money you overpay Kmart for you get back in ticket sales and merchandise. If we sign Swift it would be for about what everyone wants to pay Kmart, $8-10 million. Why not up the ante and get the real deal? We might not have to offer Kmart the max anyway.

Also, signing Kmart does not mean you can't develop young players. My point earlier was that it would enhance their development. Kmart does not force shots and ballhog. Childress, Diaw, and the Smiths would get their opportunity. Don't be fooled into thinking that overpaying for someone mediocre is much different than overpaying for an all star. With Kmart we would at least have a top 3 power forward in the east, if not the top power forward.

Cleveland did not have a fail proof blueprint for developing talent. They drafted Lebron James, it was a no brainer instant franchise maker. Denver drafted Carmelo Anthony. We drafted Josh Childress, he is not going to turn the Hawks around in the same way. Your team's plan for winning needs one ingredient: talent. You have to either pay for it or be the lucky team in a position to draft a franchise player.

Kmart is not Kobe, but he'll have to do.

[jezmund]

I must say that that 19M looks awfully bad. I really would like to add K-Mart to our club, though. He brings instant credibility, someone the fans might come out to see.

Jason Terry

Josh Childress

Boris Diaw

Kenyon Martin

Zeljko Rebracca(sp?)

Is that going to be our starting lineup next season?

[Diesel]

You're looking at the first year payment...

We are not a win now team. We are a team that more than Likely will take a few years to develop but we have pieces here that once we develop, we want to be in a position to keep it together.

You keep harping on 11 million dollars. That increases by 1.1 million per year. What that means is that 3 years in, 3.3 million... We will be trying to pay Kmart 14.3 million. By that same time, we will be trying to think about ways to pay Childress and Smith a contract extension. What if they are worth it? We're not really in position to give it to them.

Moreover, By year 6, Kmart is making 17.6 million dollars. That's dangerous.

First off, Kmart is NOT worth it on the court.

Sure he's a name that people recognize. But look at his rebounding numbers. You talk about Swift's unworthiness, but in far less minutes, Swift pulls down almost as many boards and blocks more shots. You look at his point production and it's not bad, but again, he's not max material.

As far as Vet Leadership...

Same guy was the guy who had a fist fight with Corey Maggette?

Same guy was the guy who got mad in the press with both Van Horn and Marbury.

Same guy was the guy who challenged Alonzo Mourning to a fight in practice.

Same guy was the guy who supposedly put Kurt Thomas out with a "cheat" move explained by Deke....

Like I said before... He's a thug... He's passionate, but so is Artest. Doesn't mean I want him on the team... Especially not for 84 million.

[jezmund]

Could we pay more up front so when it is time to renew Childress/Smith, we will be dealing with his lower #?

[drzachary]

Cartwright was SCREWED, then, if the mandate was to win.

"You'd better win, and win now.. Hey, come meet the team, the key pieces of which don't even shave yet."

[Diesel]

I think it's possible to frontload a contract, but a player with an agent will not allow that to happen in these days... Especially considering extensions and what not.

[Wretch]

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Even if childress turns in Tracy McGrady he is not going to win anything without a talented front court.

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Agreed. But when is it important that we start winning? We don't have to win sh#t next season - whether that be 10 or 15 games, it just doesn't matter right now. We need to compete, and we need to have a competent front court; but we are not so desperate for a front court player that we have to drop a huge contract on Kenyon Martin.

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The Bulls and Clippers are great examples of teams which are/were stockpiled with high draft picks and talented youngsters. Neither team, despite 3-4 years worth of development have been able to improve because of the lack of leadership.

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And that leadership starts in the front office where both teams have failed miserably. The Clippers are victims of BAD DRAFTING, poor player relations, and ILL MANAGEMENT. The Bulls have been trying to build exclusively through the draft - relying in players with poor work ethic.

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No lets look at Cleveland, with young stars Lebron, Boozer, Wagner, etc. They made a playoff run this year because they made a trade for veteran leadership, i.e., Williams and Battie. Indiana turned over a veteran ladden roster a few years ago by getting rid of the Davis' and adding youngsters O'Neil, Harrington, Bender and Tinsley. The team was able to continue to win because the remaining veterans on the roster were able to bridge the learning curve.

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But things only really took off in Cleveland when they shifted LeBron from 1 to two and made a move for McInnis. Nobody expected LeBron to play that well. If they did, and if the plan had been to win, then these moves would have been made MUCH sooner - and the Cavs would have been in the playoffs.

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The Hawks currently have no leadership in place. A good coach can help with the youngsters development, but you also need some on the court that can give someone a kick in the ass every now and then to work harder. Martin could do that for the hawks.

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But at what price? I'm not saying that we needn't sign Kenyon Martin or that we don't need a player like him. However, we are coming up with all kinds of reasons to justify signing him to a ridiculous contract. There is only one reason to pay a player that much money - AND THAT WOULD BE THE PLAYER BEING WORTH IT. You don't spend a max contract on a guy just so he can come in and provide leadership.

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I am not suggesting that the Hawks need to win now, or even next year.

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But the attitude with many of us right now is that this guy is a MUST HAVE. And there is absolutely NOTHING must have about his game. NOTHING. I like him and he's a good player and he'd fit perfectly for us, but that doesn't justify paying him the money that he is looking for; nor does that mean that we need to commit the future of our frontcourt to him. If we sign him, that's basically what we're saying.

We don't know who to build this team around. We don't know who will be available next season. We don't know how good our players are going to be. We don't know anything except we need to get these guys on the court and break them in. We need front court help and we need to surround them with vets - but development should be the focus, not winning. Any decisions made with intentions towards winning are premature - unless it involves a sure thing.

KENYON MARTIN IS NOT A SURE THING.

He is not neccessary to properly build this club.