Hawks and Kenyon Martin?

[Weez]

Agreed. But when is it important that we start winning? We don't have to win sh#t next season - whether that be 10 or 15 games, it just doesn't matter right now. We need to compete, and we need to have a competent front court

No, we don't have to "win," but it would help tremendously if we, at the very very least, mimicked Denver's success, teamwork, and hustle the year prior to this one, especially for guys that are going to be here long-term (aka, almost everyone)

And that leadership starts in the front office where both teams have failed miserably. The Clippers are victims of BAD DRAFTING, poor player relations, and ILL MANAGEMENT. The Bulls have been trying to build exclusively through the draft - relying in players with poor work ethic.

the two examples are true...can't argue here. But I would state that, as of now, I believe we have that in place.

But things only really took off in Cleveland when they shifted LeBron from 1 to two and made a move for McInnis. Nobody expected LeBron to play that well. If they did, and if the plan had been to win, then these moves would have been made MUCH sooner - and the Cavs would have been in the playoffs.

true enough...but it also began long before that, when mgt. realized that Ricky was stemmying (sp) LeBron's development, primarily because LeBron deferred to Ricky too much, and this wasn't usually best for the team or his development as a leader or playmaker in his own right. Additionally, the Cavs would have beat out the Celtics if McInnis hadn't gotten hurt...because that subsequently led to a huge meltdown, as the team no longer how to function properly, most likely because they're young, plain and simple.

There is only one reason to pay a player that much money - AND THAT WOULD BE THE PLAYER BEING WORTH IT. You don't spend a max contract on a guy just so he can come in and provide leadership.

It's not just about "leadership." It wouldn't be like we're getting a bad player, or even a mediocre one. We'd be getting a guy well known, marketable, and with great desire (similar to that of Artest)...not to mention he's athletic, thus fitting the playing style and demeanor of this team. In many ways, I would liken it to what the Mavs did several years ago in signing Finley, or even the Suns signing of Marion...

you get a guy that is a very good player, all-star calibre. Plus, he does all the little things. His personal production value may not warrant the contract...but he would provide championship experience and a desire to win. Two things that are often difficult to find...especially in a guy not even "entering his prime" in terms of years of age.

[Wretch]

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true enough...but it also began long before that, when mgt. realized that Ricky was stemmying (sp) LeBron's development, primarily because LeBron deferred to Ricky too much, and this wasn't usually best for the team or his development as a leader or playmaker in his own right.

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I don't think it was as much about winning as much as it was about development. The Cavs were to be LeBron's team and that couldn't happen as long as Davis was there - or it would have taken longer.

The real change came when they dealt away Darius Miles. If they were strictly in development mode, they would have held on to the kid. But they made the trade for McInnis, a veteran PG, to stabilize the club and make a push for the playoffs.

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Additionally, the Cavs would have beat out the Celtics if McInnis hadn't gotten hurt...because that subsequently led to a huge meltdown, as the team no longer how to function properly, most likely because they're young, plain and simple.

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Yep. They need him to anchor the young team and to win.

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It's not just about "leadership." It wouldn't be like we're getting a bad player, or even a mediocre one. We'd be getting a guy well known, marketable, and with great desire (similar to that of Artest)...not to mention he's athletic, thus fitting the playing style and demeanor of this team. In many ways, I would liken it to what the Mavs did several years ago in signing Finley, or even the Suns signing of Marion...

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The big difference was that these were their own players though. They had so much already invested in them. It's the same situation with NJ and KMart; he's asking for a lot of money but if the Nets don't pony up...they could be looking at losing him for nothing next season. What do we really lose if we don't sign him to big money?

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you get a guy that is a very good player, all-star calibre. Plus, he does all the little things. His personal production value may not warrant the contract...but he would provide championship experience and a desire to win. Two things that are often difficult to find...especially in a guy not even "entering his prime" in terms of years of age.

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I don't disagree with any of that. But I don't think we are in a position to take a gamble on a large contract. For Kobe...for TMac...for Kidd...for Duncan...yes. For Kenyon, I think we can wait to see how things play out in the next season or so. If we could sign him for a reasonable price, I'd have no objections...but then again, he'd probably get matched just as soon.

[Final_quest]

I got some questions for Wretch, Diesel, and whoever else wants to reply.

1. If we need a competent front court, and Kmart costs too much who, specifically, will be a part of it? And if you say Swift break down how much you think he is worth, and how much you think he will actually sign for.

2. If the Twolves and Lakers can afford to pay Shaq and Garnett $30 million per year, why can we not afford to pay Kmart $13-14 million per year?

3. Let's say the Hawks do not overpay for a front court this season, and play Collier, Rebraca, and Pryzbilla. Wouldn't this whole season be about developing 2-3 players we just drafted, and what if they turn into busts?

-This is another reason I'm for signing Martin you are not putting all your hopes for the team on unproven players. I don't want to risk wasting another season, and have to go back to the drawing board again.

4. Let me give some examples of contenders that have players with bad contracts: Minnesota- Wally Sczerbiak; Dallas- Fortson, Bradley, Walker, Finley, others; Sacramento- Webber, Bibby; Detroit- Sheed; New Jersey- Mourning, Kittles; Miami- Jones, Grant; Indiana- Croshere. If one bad contract can totally cripple a team, how come so many teams compete and go deep in the playoffs in spite of bad contracts?

5. All teams take chances on players. There are only a few unquestionable superstars in the league. Do you think you can build a contender by only signing superstars to big contracts? Everyone thinks Detroit won a championship the right way. They had team play, defense, no superstars, and no heavy contracts, but what about Rasheed Wallace? He was making like $17-18 million. They took a chance, and won a title. Why shouldn't the Hawks do the same thing with players that become avaiable to them?

[DominiqueWilkins]

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I agree that Kmart is not an elite player like Kobe is. I said that earlier. When I say top talent I mean all-star, on the olympic team, and rebounding and scoring in double figures

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Well theses days they will put just about anyone on the Olympic team, so I don't think that is saying alot.

[Traceman]

A lot of misinformation is being put out there regarding what a max deal for K-mart would be. Here are the REAL numbers based on the actual maximum salary for the 04-05 season with a 10% annual raise each year:

Year 1 - $10,960,000

Year 2 - $12,056,000

Year 3 - $13,152,000

Year 4 - $14,248,000

Year 5 - $15,344,000

Year 6 - $16,440,000

Total 6 yrs/$82,236,000. So can we PLEASE stop with these salary exagerrations for what a max contract will be? Even if we max K-Mart out, he will NEVER make $19M or even 17.6M in any season.

[Diesel]

It's good that you know how to use Larry Coon's site. Unfortunately, you used last years numbers. The Max is going up by 5%. So what once was 10.96 million will be 11.508 million.

when you add the 1.15 million, you will see why everybody keep talking about 6 yr 84-85 million.

[Traceman]

$19M but I can see where the $17.6M figure comes from.

[Weez]

ok, firstly realize that Shaq and KG's contracts are grandfathered into this CBA. Those contracts don't exist any more, thus no one can make that much unless they're extending a previous contract.

Name me one player on the Olympic team that you wouldn't want on the Hawks. They're all still pretty damn good. Perhaps not "max" worthy...but they're close.

Diesel, you're being critical. Most posters, when throwing out trade ideas, post a single number...and they generally intend the "average" of that salary. It's a pain to go out and calculate each of the step ups...thus, that's how I take them, as an average of ten million a year etc.

Some say that we don't need this guy or that guy right now (ie Kmart). But my response to that, is twofold. a) many of these guys won't be available again, at least not at a price or time (talent level) that we're willing to pay. If yo'ure getting a player who's young, known, and proven...then you pay for them. That's the risk you take...but that's what gets you these guys too. When Dallas first signed Nash to that contract, everyone laughed at them...but the end result was that he was severly underpaid in comparison to his compatriots. those are the risks you take...but those are inherent. You think the Lakers knew exactly what they were doing when they traded Vlade for Kobe (out of HS?). no. (ignoring the incredulous wisdom of West). same gambles you see as worth it.

I'll reiterate this one last time, and keep in mind that I've never been a huge fan of KMart in terms of true on the court skills. But his fire, intensity, and, now, experience, are worth a lot. They're almost part of his skill set, which is what you bargain and pay for. you add to that the situation of this franchise, where intenisty is greatly needed, and you create a case. Face it, most of us believe that the Hawks won't win tons of games this season, as is. If you want to turn that culture, yo'uve got to make some statement hirings...and because of that, I'd give KMart damn close to the max...and, depending on how high research says the Nets will go (see Cuban), you've got to outbid them if you truly want him. Realize that, unless I'm wrong, once you offer a contract to a rFA, and his team matches...you can't re-up your offer. It's done, your shot is gone...even if you were willing to go higher through negotiations...the team won't have that luxury.

[Wretch]

Is that KMart doesn't strike me as a "must have" talent. If he were putting up the kind of numbers that justify a max contract, that would make him a "must have" commodity. You could even argue that coming to Atlanta, with no other scoring options to take the heat off of him...playing beside the antithesis of the league's premier point guard that his numbers might even decline.

What I'm saying is this isn't a guy that we can't live without. This isn't a Kobe Bryant, Duncan, or McGrady entertaining free agency. This isn't even Jermaine Oneal. This is a guy whose own team isn't sure about his worth and I can name AT A MINIMUM 10 guys who I would take at PF over Kenyon Martin...AT LEAST 10. And this doesn't include guys who have just come into the game like Okafor, Howard, or Amare...

That's not saying that he isn't good. I like his game. But when you are talking about dropping 85 million over 6 years...this guy needs to be in the upper echelon of players, especially at his position.