Walker vs Harrington.....the truth...

[falc82]

I don't understand some of you Walker nut huggers. I really don't. Why would we trade Al before we trade Walker? Last time I checked Al was 4 years younger (at only 24), and will be much cheaper. Walker turns the ball over more, (3.7 tpg). And for all the talk of how much better a passer Walker is than Al, everyone fails to notice that Al averages more apg. 3.3 apg vs 3.5 apg in Al's favor. Blocked shots? 0.2 bpg vs 0.5 bpg in Walker's favor, neither are great shot blockers to say the least. Steals? 1.50 vs 1.39 spg in Walker's favor, so almost the same as well. 6.8 rebounds vs 9.0 rpg, in Walker's favor, but you have to realize that Walker is always closer to the basket playing PF and therefore gets maybe 1 or 2 more rebounds a game which allows for this difference. .465% fg% vs .419% fg% in Al's favor. .626% ft% vs .532% ft% in Al's favor. And for everyone who keeps saying hwo much better of a scorer Walker is than Al well... 20.4 ppg on 18.8 fg a game vs 17.1 ppg on 14.4 fg a game in Walkers favor. (1.19 points per shot (67th in NBA) vs 1.09 pps (102nd in NBA) in Al's favor.)

Therefore Al's stats may be a tad bit lower in ppg, rpg, and spg, but he leads in pretty much everything else, plus he has proven to be the more efficent (and cheaper, younger) player. So I ask you..why would we rather keep Walker and trade Al?

[Iman]

Good discussion, just missing the point. We discuss trading Harrington because he has more trade value.

I think our rebuilding process is really just getting started. BK picked up Harrington to see if he'd work out but largely because he was gonna lose Stephen Jackson anyways. Walker is also possibly being tried out, but less likely due to the salary. I practically think BK just thought Walker/Delk had more trade value than JT/Hendu. At the very least the move freed up more capspace sooner.

Harrington might be part of our future but he does not seem to be a true PF and if we can trade him for something that fits better, why not?

[falc82]

Not everyone says we should trade Al only because he has superior trade value. Some do, but I have seen post that only try to devalue Al. They say Walker is the superior player by far, some even go as far as saying Al can not pass at all. This was stated in the thread ''we should trade al...'' In the same thread it was said that Walker was a very good passer. However this points out that Al averages more apg, even though by a very small amount, and also Al averages less turnovers per game.

[Employee8]

Quote:

---

I don't understand some of you Walker nut huggers. I really don't. Why would we trade Al before we trade Walker? Last time I checked Al was 4 years younger (at only 24), and will be much cheaper. Walker turns the ball over more, (3.7 tpg).

---

He turns the ball over more 'cause he has the ball in his hands a good chunk of the time and he tries to make plays to give this team some offense *and* to give them better shot opportunities. I don't like the Turnovers either but I know the reason behind them, though. Besides, it's not like Walker decides to say 'Hey! Here you go, man!' and gives the ball to the opponent.

Quote:

---

And for all the talk of how much better a passer Walker is than Al, everyone fails to notice that Al averages more apg. 3.3 apg vs 3.5 apg in Al's favor.

---

Ummm..You *do* know that you are making a big deal out of two-tenths of a point...let me repeat...TWO-TENTHS OF A POINT!! That's funny. seriously.

I call that a wash THIS SEASON but I think people are talking about Walker THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER(4.8) when they say he's a way better passer than AL. And I agree with them.

Quote:

---

Blocked shots? 0.2 bpg vs 0.5 bpg in Walker's favor, neither are great shot blockers to say the least.

---

So? Uh...We didn't get Walker and Harrington for the SHOTBLOCKING PROWESS, my friend.

Besides, I've noticed Walker blocking shots more often this season than AL...But that doesn't make Walker the 2nd coming of Dikembe Mutumbo.

Quote:

---

Steals? 1.50 vs 1.39 spg in Walker's favor, so almost the same as well.

---

Yes it is almost the same but remember that Walker is a POWER-FORWARD Leading the TEAM in Steals thus far this season. Usually GUARDS lead the Team in STEALS....That makes Walker all the more impressive, especially since he's not really known for his DEFENSE(kudos to Woodson for that).

Quote:

---

6.8 rebounds vs 9.0 rpg, in Walker's favor, but you have to realize that Walker is always closer to the basket playing PF and therefore gets maybe 1 or 2 more rebounds a game which allows for this difference.

---

And your point being? Walker is a POWERFORWARD. PFs normally are the ones who GET THE REBOUNDS 90% of the time. AL is NOT a PF even though he tries to be one at times. He is more a SF and averaging about 7 boards a game for a SF is pretty damn good.

Quote:

---

.465% fg% vs .419% fg% in Al's favor.

---

Walker can't make a Mid-Range Jumpshot to save his life; AL can. End of story here.

Quote:

---

.626% ft% vs .532% ft% in Al's favor.

---

YOU'RE BRAGGING ABOUT SOMEONE WHO SHOOTS 62% FROM THE LINE?? 62 vs 53 percent is still BAD from both ends no matter how you look at it.

Quote:

---

And for everyone who keeps saying hwo much better of a scorer Walker is than Al well... 20.4 ppg on 18.8 fg a game vs 17.1 ppg on 14.4 fg a game in Walkers favor. (1.19 points per shot (67th in NBA) vs 1.09 pps (102nd in NBA) in Al's favor.)

---

Well congratulations to being 67TH !! *rolls eyes* C'mon man.....That was WEAK.

Quote:

---

Therefore Al's stats may be a tad bit lower in ppg, rpg, and spg, but he leads in pretty much everything else, plus he has proven to be the more efficent (and cheaper, younger) player. So I ask you..why would we rather keep Walker and trade Al?

---

Because Walker commands DOUBLE-TEAMS....AL does not. Walker can HANDLE THE ROCK, AL cannot(or at least not as well). Walker is a LEADER, Al Isn't. Walker has PERSONALITY, AL is bland.

[emeans]

Dude....how many times do people have to tell you that the reason Walker will be traded more so than Al is because of economics.

Is Walker paying you?? You sure defend him like you are getting paid from the man. Are you his lawyer or something??

Al is a very good player and so is Walker, but it is asinine to think that Al would be traded before Walker. The guy is younger, cheaper and he is a talent. Anyone with half common sense can see this. Certainly BK sees this.

Get off of Walker's balls and start seeing things objectively and not subjectively!!

[bballfan]

Funny I don't think either guy should be traded because they get along and work well together. They just can't do it alone.

Walker is the better passer but he gets double teamed more then Al.

[Diesel]

Too many excuses and exaggerations in your arguement. I think Walker is a better fit and that Smoove has a similar game at Sf, but I am not for keeping walker at all cost and i definitely wouldn't exaggerate a thing about the comparison...

For instance.

6.8 to 9.0 reb per game is NOT almost the same. It's an overwhelming difference. In actuallity, it's 2 possessions which can amount to an 8 point swing in PPG difference. That's huge...

Secondly, this crap about being closer to the basket...

When Smoove subs for Harrington, why is it that he can get almost 8 rebounds for every 10 minutes that he's on the floor? I mean, if closeness was a valid arguement then when Smoove sub'd for Harrington, there would be no great difference in rebounds... However, if we played Harrington 1 game at Sf then put Smoove 1 game at Sf, Smoove would double Harrington's rebound numbers... Proximity has very little to do with that...

Third. Most of Al's Assists are to who??

Point Made....

Case Closed....

I just think it's asking for trouble trying to play Harrington at PF... He's not even Jamison. We would definitely need a C that could rebound the moon... and a SG who can shoot the moon.

Lastly, if it's possible to get one of these young Cs (Magloire, Curry, and Dalembert/Kwame with picks) I say we trade Harrington. A swingman is much easier to find than a C.

[Diesel]

Iman, this is my point...

The only thing that would make me believe Harrington is non-tradable is his ties to BK in Indy. If BK wanted him.... The way he wants Swift... I think that he may go nowhere.

I think that the original plan was to trade Walker, keep Harrington, pick up Swift and allow Smoove to develop...

But Smoove is starting to show that he's progressing much faster than BK planned and Walker is playing good basketball and may want to stay through the rebuild... If that's the case and if we can get a C for Harrington... We have to go with his value and get a C.

[unknownjdb]

The more I see D speak of trading Al for a big, the more it really makes sense. I am noticing that Al isn't turning out the way everyone expected him to. Not that he's playing badly, it's just he isn't playing All-Star quality basketball (which I think most of us on this board were hoping). Still, his value is definitely high and if he were to be traded for a GOOD Center it would not only fill one of our needs but also open up more playing time for the future of this team - Smoove.

Now, another thought is that we wait until the summer for this to take place. If things work out well with Walker and he wants to stay and help us build, then re-sign him and use Al for a sign-and-trade with one of the Restricted Cs. Then next year Smoove would have the SF all to himself (breakout year). We would also still have money this off-season to sign another GOOD C to have "In case sh*t...", not to mention Swift.

Possible roster for next year...

Rookie PG / Ivey / Vet filler

Chill / Delk / Diaw

Smoove / D. Smith / Rookie SF

Walker / (Swift) / Collier

Chandler / Dalembert / Drob

I really think that this is a very possible scenario. Straight sign Swift, throw money at Chandler (though not too much, slightly worried about his injury-prone nature) and then trade Al to Phily for Dal (or vice versa).

Maybe I'm being a little unthoughtful to our PF/C postions in that they all won't get huge minutes, but it's been so long since we've had solids there that I don't really care. As long as we get good play from all.

Sorry to those who think this is all bullshyte but you have to admit, it's an intriguing thought.

[Employee8]

Quote:

---

Dude....how many times do people have to tell you that the reason Walker will be traded more so than Al is because of economics.

---

Oh really? Well if that's the case, then guess what? Atlanta HAS CAP-ROOM...PLENTY OF IT! And just who is out there that is willing to come to Atlanta following another losing season here, hmm? WALKER MIGHT if he continues to see improvement here *and* if the price is right(he won't get a better offer anywhere else)...As far as Al goes, Never say never.

Quote:

---

Is Walker paying you?? You sure defend him like you are getting paid from the man. Are you his lawyer or something??

---

Same can be said about you and Big Al. And what's your problem anyway? This has NOTHING to do with you.

Quote:

---

Al is a very good player and so is Walker, but it is asinine to think that Al would be traded before Walker.

---

Tell ya what....how about NONE ARE TRADED? HAPPY? sheesh...

Quote:

---

The guy is younger, cheaper and he is a talent.

---

He is young, cheaper, and he is definitely a talent. But he still has alot to learn *and* will NOT Command Double-teams/Triple-teams anytime soon; Walker DOES *NOW* and he's a "talent" like AL.

Quote:

---

Anyone with half common sense can see this. Certainly BK sees this.

---

lol...You claim to know what BK sees...Well let me enlighten you : You Know NOTHING about what BK sees, hears, or thinks. Walker is more a BK guy than AL is. End of Story.

Quote:

---

Get off of Walker's balls and start seeing things objectively and not subjectively!!

---

Just as soon as you remove Al's little weenie from your mouth, you mindless buffoon.

[emeans]

First of all 'homeboy' I haven't call you a name (buffoon) or gotten personal with you in any of my post and I am going to take the high road on your personal comments this time.

Secondly, if you get upset everytime someone says something about Walker that you don't agree with then you need a reality check. Walker has many flaws and he is very expensive.

Thirdly, for you to say I am always backing Al Harrington is extremely false. I have criticized him for bone head plays, just like I have praise him for good plays. I don't like his turnovers and his forced shots. I hate them and I have criticized him for that...OBJECTIVELY!!

You on the other hand think Walker is this almighty GOD of a player and he is not. He is talented yes, but don't sit there and get mad everytime someone criticizes his short comings!!

It is one thing to be a fan of Walker, it is another thing to blindly support someone without seeing their faults and other issues like money, etc. You are too SUBJECTIVE in your evaluation of Walker.

If Walker stays then cool. I don't have nothing against Walker. All I am saying is that economically it makes more sense to trade him than Al......nothing more nothing less.

[Diesel]

Sometimes Fan becomes Fanatic

[f_town]

that sh*t aint cool bro

if someone doesnt like Walker or thinks he should be traded, thats their business...

this board is for ppl with all opinions, not just yours

think about it :|

[bballfan]

Quote:

---

First of all 'homeboy' I haven't call you a name (buffoon) or gotten personal with you in any of my post and I am going to take the high road on your personal comments this time.

Secondly, if you get upset everytime someone says something about Walker that you don't agree with then you need a reality check. Walker has many flaws and he is very expensive.

Thirdly, for you to say I am always backing Al Harrington is extremely false. I have criticized him for bone head plays, just like I have praise him for good plays. I don't like his turnovers and his forced shots. I hate them and I have criticized him for that...OBJECTIVELY!!

You on the other hand think Walker is this almighty GOD of a player and he is not. He is talented yes, but don't sit there and get mad everytime someone criticizes his short comings!!

It is one thing to be a fan of Walker, it is another thing to blindly support someone without seeing their faults and other issues like money, etc. You are too SUBJECTIVE in your evaluation of Walker.

If Walker stays then cool. I don't have nothing against Walker. All I am saying is that economically it makes more sense to trade him than Al......nothing more nothing less.

---

Employee number 8 is obviously a Walker fan but to say he is a blind one is untrue. He has talked about Antoine's fault on this board and others where he has been over critical.

[emeans]

No...The problem with this guy is that he always trying to get smart when someone has an opinion about Walker.

Saying Walker need to be traded because of economics is nothing to get angry or smarty pants about. It is a simple statement that makes a lot of sense. That is nothing personal about Walker and his game so why get angry??

That is peoples problem with this guy.

[Employee8]

Okay emeans, I did in fact step over the line with my comments toward you and I apologize for that.

But going back to the economics issue :

"Atlanta HAS CAP-ROOM...PLENTY OF IT! And just who is out there that is willing to come to Atlanta following another losing season here, hmm? WALKER MIGHT if he continues to see improvement here *and* if the price is right(he won't get a better offer anywhere else)...As far as Al goes, Never say never."

That is what I stated and how I feel. The "economics" thing isn't going to be much of a factor since Atlanta has plenty of money to throw around...

Maybe Walker is dealt, maybe he isn't. But the fact is that if he IS dealt, it won't be because of BK wanting to just dump salary.

[falc82]

Employee8, I understand what you are saying but I think you are missing the point I was trying to make. I am not making a huge deal out of either one's stats, I am simply showing both of their stats and how they compare to each other. I know that the difference in apg is minimal at best, but the point there is that one poster questioned if Al could pass at all, then it was said that Walker is an exceptional passer? Maybe Walker is the better passer between the two, but the stats don't really lie. Al can pass as well. 3.5 apg is not a sign that a player can not pass at all or lacks the ability to.

I really wouldn't mind seeing the Hawks organization resign Walker to a new deal and to team him up with Smoove and Al, and then go out this off-season and sign a young C, and draft a future point in the draft. That wouldn't bother me one bit at all. I'd like to see it. But, I am confused to say the best at the reason that some posters say Al is more likely to be traded that Walker? If it really comes down to one of the other then Walker is the obvious one to go. Al is not far below him in skills and production which is what I was attempting to show. Walker has a few years on Al when it comes to NBA expierence so it is to be expected somewhat that he would be ahead of Al in ability somewhat. But, both are talented players who have proven that they can produce in the NBA, the difference between the two is age and price. Al has the advantage in both. Once again, I'd rather keep both unless a great deal came along for Walker, but if it came down to picking one, Walker has to go over Al. It's economics. In the comparrison I was only trying to show that Al was close to Walker in almost all stats, and that there was not as much differnece in the stats as some would see, that's why I pointed out spg, apg, ppg, rpg, fg%, pps, ect..just to show that Al actually was a good player as well, which some seem to dispute.

And to the poster who said I was flawed on my reasoning for the rebound differential? Well, Smoove remains close to the basket on both offense and defense. Walker and Al both stay around equal distance from the goal on offense, and guess what? Thier offensive rebounds per game are the exact (2.1).

Walker covers PF on defense which work in the paint, while Al covers SF who stay on the perimeter and in the paint (this is all for the majority of the time anyways, of course you have PF/SF who don't follow this trend as well) Therefore, Al is farther away from the basket than Walker is on defense which could and probably does cost him a rebound or maybe even two a game. Even if it was only one rebound per game that it cost him, 1.2 rpg is not that much.

Oh and this may be unpopular, but Walker in a remote way reminds me of a mix of Jason Terry and Reef. Reef because he has problems getting his shot off sometimes with taller PF and C's but is still a reliable scorer. Terry because both are playmakers but just seem to cause a lot of turnovers as a result at times. The major difference is that both Terry and Reef were very good FT shooters and Walker is not.

Feel free to respond or not, but when it all comes down to it these are just our own opinions. BK has his own, and those are the ones that really matter. This is a message board so we all have a right to our own opinions, and I respect everyone here who expresses his/hers as long as they back themselves up with reason why, which most here do.

[TheDude]

I don't know why any of you are even discussing trading Al Harrington. I keep seeing these trade scenarios as if it's even possible. BK will not trade Al. He is part of our future. There has never been rumored discussions of trading him. He is a piece of the puzzle.

That is not a diss to Antoine. Antoine is the man. He is also underrated in my opinion. However due to his age and contract, he is the one that would be traded, not Harrington.

Keep in mind Harrington is still only 24 years old.

[MoonKnight]

Josh Smith is the final straw that dictates Walker will not likely be back. I think everyone on this board would agree that Smith is the future of the franchise. I think that most of the people on this board would agree Smith's true position is either the 3 spot or the 4 spot and not the 2 spot. It is not productive for us to move Walker to the 5 spot and keep AH and Smith as our forwards. Therefore we must remove the logjam at forward. Walker will demand a big contract as a FA considering his good to decent play and the silly contracts offered to Brian Cardinal, Foyle, etc., this past offseason. AH is younger than Walker and has a reasonable salary for this year and next season before he becomes a FA. Neither AH or Walker are true superstars in this league and we should not make either player the cornerpiece of this team. In fact, IMO Smith has more potential to be a superstar or cornerpiece of this team. Lastly, BK's history demonstrates he will not overpay for a player. Result: Walker will be traded either before the trade deadline or in a sign and trade this summer. This is no personal attack on any player just the most reasonable result to best help this team.

[TheDude]

very true moonknight....one good thing we can bank on is that Knight will not sign some crazy deal like some of the GM's....we will eventually be good and good for a long time because of this type of attitude.