Premium Member Diesel Posted March 11, 2005 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 First off... I would trade down. Maybe to Utah for 5/25 Maybe to Chalotte 2/20 Maybe to Toronto 9/13. Let's argue that it's Toronto for #9/#13. Let's argue that Babcock has the Jones for Paul. OK. Who would I select. Gerald Green and Jarrett Jack. The way I see it is that there's too many FAs that are big men to waste on a project C. I would set my guns on Swift/Dally. I would resign Lue. I would sign Watson. My team. Jack/Watson/Lue Green/Diaw Chillz/Smoove/Donta Harrington/Collier Swift/Drobs That's it. I know Swift is not a legitimate C but the whole East is illegitimate. We play run and gun ball in Atlanta. I figure that the odds are going to be against me getting Watson and Dally but you got to try. I think getting Lue to resign shouldn't be a problem. I know that there's a great big Smoove fan base and I am one but Smoove is not ready yet. I know that Gerald Green is just a HSer but he's probably more of a SG than Chill or Smoove and if he is TMAC maybe better, I want to see! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholasp27 Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 we don't trade our first after we finally get one!! u CANNOT draft based on FAcy...we may come out EMPTY HANDED in FAcy...we CANNOT draft that way and put our future in FAcy's hand... if we get #1, we need to get bogut...we are NOT gonna contend with al/swift at pf/c and if we get watson and jack, no need for lue i'd rather trade al for a teens pick than trade down bogut+jack is better than green/jack/al we need a REAL center...which is what bogut is...or he can be a REAL pf like duncan if we can sign a real center... bottom line...if we are guaranteed to have a REAL Big Man who can pass out of double teams, can score efficiently, can rebound like his hands/the ball are magnetized, then we MUST take that man... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBAreject Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 When Orlando traded down from 1 to 3, it cost Golden State something like 3 extra first round picks. Geez. And that was a year when there was a bona fide 1, 2, and 3. Webber, Kidd, Penny (right?) I might consider 1 for 2/20, but there's no way I would do 1 for 5/25. I would only do it if Bogut AND Marvin Williams were on the board. I think MW said he's not coming out... No way on 9/13, either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted March 11, 2005 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 First off, Bogut has to prove that he's the best talent available. I don't know if he is. I think Williams may be. Still... Bogut seems a little soft to me. We need somebody that will bang and get Rebounds if Harrington will remain as Pf. I don't see Bogut as doing that. In fact, most accounts have Bogut playing PF in the pros... Secondly... Our money has to translate. You say you don't go into the draft with an eye on FAcy... That's exactly what Denver did when they went into the draft a couple of years ago. We're a young team. Even if we don't get that Project PF/C in the draft, i think we can get somebody substantial out of FAcy. Moreover, we can still get somebody servicable in the 2nd round IF our FA moves don't work out. The point is you can't draft for need when you can get good players. That's how we got Diaw over Howard. Wouldn't you like to have gotten Josh Howard a couple of years ago? We drafted for need. We needed a ball handler to play beside Terry. Well, now, Terry is gone, Diaw is not a useful 1st rounder and Howard is looking like a very good pick. Could have been ours. I don't want to watch Green Turn into something spectacular and Bogut turn into the next Kaman and sit around talking about what we passed up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted March 11, 2005 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 That Orlando team went to the Championship Finals with Penny. Penny became just as much as an allstar as Webber or Kidd. I'm not sayingthat there is no risk and I'm not saying that we can't get more, I'm saying that this is a good start of the discussion of what could be if we trade down. There's always players we can swap or future picks we can add... but this is just a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member mrhonline Posted March 11, 2005 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Broken record...broken record...broken record...broken record. Diesel, no offense, but can you and others chill out on the Bogut-hate until the lottery? The Hawks may not even have the #1 or #2 pick...and all this will be totally irrelevant. Besides, if Bogut succeeds in the NBA, you'll just spin this threads in your favor. So why not save yourself (and us) the trouble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted March 11, 2005 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 I don't hate Bogut. I just want to see Bogut prove himself. Look at the ACC. That's a very strong conference. Night in and Night out: Jack, Gilchrist, Paul, Felton, etc face the strongest PG competition that they can face in college basketball. Night in and Night out, Williams has to step up against a quality team and prove his worth. Who has Bogut played? North Dakota State? Southern Utah? the University of the Mormon? If you put me out there and let me play C, in my old age, I'd get you 15/12 and 3. Should I be drafted first? I mean really, Bogut is taller and bigger than anybody he plays. When he played against the only real team on the schedule (Arizona) they lost and he went scoreless in the 4th qtr when Channing Frye was in the game... Am I to be bowled over by his talent against 6'5 Centers? This is not me saying that he's bad. This is me saying that the Big Dance will prove a lot about him. If he goes through and dominates the Big Dance... Even equivalent to the way that Big Country and B. Houston did some time ago, I would say OK, let's draft him first. But until then, I say it may be smarter to trade down and get 2 good players or more for the pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emeans Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Diesel, Man the more I read your post the more I think you are dreaming and need to wake up. Trade a 1 for what??? a 5/25 or a 9/13?? I am so glad you are not a GM for any team. You would be fired before your first meeting. They would run you out of town before you could even present some of your fantasy plans. You would never get a job as a GM. No way I would even remotedly consider that and BK is not remotely considering that. The only semi-rational trade would be for a 2/20. However...if we get the 1st pick...Keep it!!! Repeat after me....WE DON'T NEED TO TRADE DOWN....WE DON'T NEED TO TRADE DOWN. If we get the 1st pick in the draft....use it. We have enough 2nd round picks and a another sure 1st round pick this year or next year to add to our 1st pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member mrhonline Posted March 11, 2005 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Over the past few years, teams have drafted big men that have had SIGNIFICANTLY less experience than Bogut has. I don't need to make a list for you, you should know them off the top of your head. Think about it this way - what if Bogut hadn't gone to Utah? His only other option would probably have been Europe, where he would have been lucky to see more than 10-15 minutes per game in that system (rewards experience). Instead, he took a scholarship at a good university (ever heard of Majerus?), proved himself in the Olympics, and has handled media scrutiny well. Now, please tell me, what more would you like him to prove? And before you answer, let me give you a few names: Eddy Curry, Tyson Chandler, Kwame Brown, Amare Stoudamire, Kobe Bryant, et al. (None of these guys had proven ANYTHING at the college level or international level). You draft based on potential talent in the NBA - if proven, great. If not, you draft them anyway. Besides, you still haven't addressed two other major problems with your argument: 1. What player has more NBA potential than Bogut? Martynas A., perhaps. But the difference isn't great, and he's significantly less proven than Bogut. 2. What player has more NBA talent than Bogut? First, you can't teach size. Paul *might* have more talent, but it's debatable. Plus, he's as unproven vs. bigger guards as Bogut is vs. top-level competition. Bogut is physical, passes well, and can score inside. Those three things should be enough, but... I admit that Marvin Williams is intriguing, but I can't see the Hawks passing on Bogut to land a player that might be slightly better than Smoove. But, again, who cares right now? The Hawks will select the best player available at their draft position. If they get the #1, they'll draft Bogut. If they fall lower, then it will depend on who gets drafted ahead of them. Either way, trading down a pick this high in the draft would be to give up on the rebuilding process. The Hawks don't want to simply add talent - they want the right kind of talent. Knight as much as said this himself a few games ago when he pointed out that the Hawks NEED big men. Now, if Bogut AND Paul are gone by the time the Hawks pick, I personally would consider trading down. But again - worthless speculation until the lottery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBAreject Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Dude, you consistently miss the point. Do you honestly think I was using it as an illustration to say that we shouldn't trade down???? I obviously understand that the Orlando team went to the Finals. MY POINT was that Orlando moved down 2 spots, and it cost GS 3 extra #1's. Why should we accept a lousy #25 pick to move down 4 spots from #1? That was my point. Did you just not read the entire post or what? It wasn't long. I even pointed out that Orlando got that much in a year when there was a very good #3 out there, so why should we do it in a year when there isn't a great #3? Somehow, you got out of my post that I was saying we shouldn't trade down because Orlando did it and ended up with Penny and he sucks. Wow. I'm speechless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member mrhonline Posted March 11, 2005 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Keith Van Horn Michael Doleac Andre Miller Kenny Thomas Marcus Banks Kirk Snyder Shaun Marion Keon Clark Theo Ratliff Rafael Araujo Shawn Bradley ---> Van Horn, Miller, Thomas, Marion, and Ratliff are bona-fide starters. Banks, Snyder, and Araujo all have a lot of potential. Bradley, Doleac, and Clark are good role players. These are all players who showed "nothing" at the college level. And none of them are as highly-touted as Bogut. Anyways, Bogut would have been a high pick even if he had not have gone to college...His successes at Utah & in the Olympics are just the icing on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicholasp27 Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Quote: We need somebody that will bang and get Rebounds if Harrington will remain as Pf. I don't see Bogut as doing that. Bogut is well-known for his rebounding...rebounding, passing and efficient scoring are his 3 most acclaimed talents... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted March 11, 2005 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Still.. Did you read the whole post... I said that the trades I mentioned were just a start.. I understood what you were saying as far as we should get more and that's plausible. Utah has more 1st rounders than God So they may be willing to let 3 go. But for this season, we can only expect 2 from any team. But future first would work too... However, I just wanted to get to the table with the thought... We can Iron out the rest at the table. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted March 11, 2005 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 I thought Banks went to UW... But it don't matter. Point is that that may be true about all those players and many of them played for Majerus.. however, times have changed... Who is Bogut playing against NOW? Let me bring you to 2005 the Hard way... What Big Man in the MWC right now would you spend a late first rounder on? How about an Early 2nd? How about a Late 2nd? Here's a list of their Centers: Quote: Player Position Teams Anthony, Joel C UNLV Rebels Boswell, Jarrod C Wyoming Cowboys Burgess, David C Brigham Young Cougars Camara, Mohamed C San Diego State Aztecs Creason, Stuart C Colorado State Rams Dawes, Derek C Brigham Young Cougars Frye, John C Air Force Falcons Jackson, Chris C Utah Utes Manker, Chris C San Diego State Aztecs Nelson, Matt C Colorado State Rams Nevill, Luke C Utah Utes Here's a list of their Sf/PFs.. Quote: Teams Amundson, Louis F UNLV Rebels Anderson, Chris F Wyoming Cowboys Blankson, Odartey F UNLV Rebels Bogut, Andrew F Utah Utes Burgess, Joshua F Brigham Young Cougars Burtschi, Jacob F Air Force Falcons Chiotti, David F New Mexico Lobos Davis, Trimaine F San Diego State Aztecs Dunn, Alex F Wyoming Cowboys Granger, Danny F New Mexico Lobos Hawkins, Justin F Utah Utes Holum, Marc F Air Force Falcons Ines, Jared F San Diego State Aztecs Jensen, Jared F Brigham Young Cougars Kenzik, Eric F Air Force Falcons Lamb, Chris F San Diego State Aztecs Langvad, Jonas F Utah Utes Maren, Keith F Air Force Falcons Markson, Bryant F Utah Utes McGrath, Tim F San Diego State Aztecs Meads, Garner F Brigham Young Cougars Miles, Chris F Brigham Young Cougars Neale, Alfred F New Mexico Lobos Osby, Bambale F New Mexico Lobos Peterson, David F Air Force Falcons Phaler, Sean F New Mexico Lobos Plaisted, Trent F Brigham Young Cougars Robison, Austin F Utah Utes Schmidt, Jake F Utah Utes Slaughter, Marcus F San Diego State Aztecs Smith, Jason F Colorado State Rams Teets, Ryan F Air Force Falcons Thomasson, Phillip F Colorado State Rams Verwers, Stephen F Colorado State Rams Villepigue, Dustin F UNLV Rebels Wabbington, Derek F Wyoming Cowboys Walter, Kellen F New Mexico Lobos Walton, Chris F San Diego State Aztecs Williams, Matt F Colorado State Rams Williams, Wilbur F UNLV Rebels The point is that Bogut is not playing against competition. That's not a designation of how good he is. I think it's worth it to see how he stacks up in the big dance before we say that he's this or that... Because he could just as easily be hype built up on playing 6'5 Centers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted March 11, 2005 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 If we can get the same thing at 9 and 13 than we can get at 1 and 2 why not trade down. Sorry Emeans, you just don't understand... These guys who are projected at 1 and 2 (for now) has not distanced themselves from guys projected at 9 and 13... Before it's all over (for you who don't watch college ball) your precious draft mocks will change so much that the guys who you are claiming are all world will be #20... It happened with Smoove over the period of 2 workouts. My point is that in a draft where there is clearly not a strong #1, we should think about getting 2 good picks. Period. Let me put it another way: Would you trade Yao Ming for Amare/Marcus Haslip and a future 1st? Would you trade Kwame Brown for Rodney White, Richard Jefferson and a future 1st? Would you trade Micheal Olowakhandi for Dirk N, Keon Clark, and a future first? These were all years where the field was uncertain like this year and the #1 pick was an unknown Big man. I showed you the results of trading 1 for 9/13 and a 1st... If you say that you wouldn't trade that precious #1 in those cases, I know you are a liar and don't deserve resprect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emeans Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Just because Bogut plays in the MWC doesn't mean he isn't going to do well in the NBA. In his case you have evaluate him on his potential, olympics and other skilled areas. Hell we are drafting High School players that haven't played against any competition their entire lives and they do well in the NBA. You can't judge a player entirely on the fact that he hasn't played against ACC/SEC/Big East talent. Again do High Schoolers play against ACC/SEC/Big East talent???? We draft a ton of them in the 1st round and a lot of them pan out to be just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted March 11, 2005 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 The thing about these HSers is that we can pretty much tell their pedigree because these guys play in their HS games, but the good ones get invited to ABCD camps and NIKE and Rebok tourneys where they play against the best HSers. These guys are constantly Scouted. Bogut is a guy who showed up in the Olympiads.. Good But what did he do after the Olympics? He went to Utah and played a whole bunch of nobodies... I'm not saying that he's bad. I'm saying that I would like to see him play MORE Competition IN; the NCAA tourney and the Portsmouth Invitational and in personal workouts for the Hawks before I get all gung Ho about him. What's so wrong with that?? Do you know that Scouts had been Watching Tyson Chandler and D. Howard since they were in the 8th grade? Do you know that Tyson Chandler was the first guy they expected to leave HS early? There is a body of work behind the HS guys... Look how far ahead we heard about Lebron... We heard about Lebron back when he was waxing Deng's ass on the court as Juniors in HS. There are no surprises when it comes to the HSers... They have been well scouted.. However, Bogut? Who has he played... Oh yeah.. 1 game against Duncan in the Olympics... Yeah.. that 11/8 is enough to be choosen first right? In the tournament of the America's Peter John Ramos from Puerto Rico put up 34 pts, 9 rebounds against Team USA... He plays for Washington Now... Look over his body of work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member mrhonline Posted March 11, 2005 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Quote: The thing about these HSers is that we can pretty much tell their pedigree because these guys play in their HS games, but the good ones get invited to ABCD camps and NIKE and Rebok tourneys where they play against the best HSers. These guys are constantly Scouted. Yeah, those Olympic players - nothing but trash. Yeah, those high schoolers, most of whom go on to play college ball. LOL Quote: Bogut is a guy who showed up in the Olympiads.. Good But what did he do after the Olympics? He went to Utah and played a whole bunch of nobodies... No, he DOMINATED them. Just as a player of his talent would do. Quote: I'm not saying that he's bad. I'm saying that I would like to see him play MORE Competition IN; the NCAA tourney and the Portsmouth Invitational and in personal workouts for the Hawks before I get all gung Ho about him. What's so wrong with that?? No, you want to trade down b/c you don't think he's worth. (Read: Diesel is already losing the argument, changes stance). Quote: There is a body of work behind the HS guys... Look how far ahead we heard about Lebron... We heard about Lebron back when he was waxing Deng's ass on the court as Juniors in HS. There are no surprises when it comes to the HSers... They have been well scouted.. However, Bogut? Who has he played... Oh yeah.. 1 game against Duncan in the Olympics... Not true. From espn.com: Quote: Scouting Report: Many believe him to be the top player in the nation ... Was on NBA scouts' radar screens before he ever even arrived at Utah ... Widely expected to enter the draft after his sophomore campaign, and a projected lottery selection ... Again, worthless speculation at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted March 12, 2005 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 I will give you all of Europe and I will take guys out of HS.. On my team: KG, Amare, Lebron, Kobe, T-Mac, D. Howard, J. Oneal, J Smoove, A. Jefferson, J. R. Smith, Billups, and Kwame Brown. Who do you have? If I'm making such good Points for you, I guess this is the only poiint that matters... You need to check the track record.. Because after Dirk and Yao who is there?? Nobody that's on the level with the HSers.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Peoriabird Posted March 12, 2005 Premium Member Report Share Posted March 12, 2005 Quote: I will give you all of Europe and I will take guys out of HS.. Australia is not in Europe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now